334 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Okay, seems I was too imprecise with my wording. I naturally did not just mean THAC0, but everything that made up a character in the D&D universe. You *could* make a charismatic fighter with high persuasion skills, but you would obviously suffer in your martial abilities and feats. You could roll a wizard with low wisdom so wish could backfire hilariously. Your front-line tank could specialise in saving throws, but take a hit in AC etc. etc. etc. In essence, you'd always have to give up something in order to do well at another. That was choice, that was character building, that was replayability.

In DA:I, you can choose if you want to kill stuff with a blue flash or a red flash. No conversational skills, no crafting skills, no lockpicking = no actual investment in anything. No choice. No replayability. Boring.

But that's just gimping. You can always choose to gimp your character. The complaint is more that the gimping doesn't feel as justified. Take a high charisma fighter in BG - that was a pointless built be cause you could get 18 charisma off an item. And then trade-off was worth it. From a powergame POV.

D&D had few powerful builds and lots of gimp builds. There was a lot of "choice" in that there were lots of trap abilities but that wasn't especially intriguing unless you invented a headcannon reason to pick it; it was totally independent of mechanics. The same applies to TW2, which is a comically simple action-RPG mechanically.

[Terodil]

The target audience is indeed the problem however... The reason why I'm upset is my game is limited by impatient people who won't take the time to learn..

This is very true, actually.

You don't usually see that much in real life, but in games our traits tend to blow out of proportion. I remember my last days as tank in WoW (some time around WoTLK)... I used to run instances fast, but I would never skip bosses, and if a newbie needed quests, I'd just grab those two extra mobs -- no chip off my shoulder. The abuse I'd get in PUGs for wanting to actually play the game instead of playing the slot machine for loot/badges... unbelievable. And it wasn't just a few people. I quit tanking after that.

So maybe EA has it right, and we're just a dying breed... Why would any developer invest so much money, time, and love into something the vast majority of people will refuse to appreciate, because it's "in their way"?

[Terodil]

But that's just gimping. You can always choose to gimp your character. [...] From a powergame POV.

You call it "gimping"... but not everybody plays D&D-based games to have a cheeseburger. There is choice if you forego conversational prowess because you want to be a proper tank; generally it would mean that you'd have to pick specific henchmen. Likewise, if you play a sorcerer or bard with high charisma, you'll probably be thankful for any kind of muscle-packed companion, if only to carry the phat lootz ™, because you can cleverly avoid most fights by convincing your opponents that they are flowerpots in need of water.

Also, I'm tired. G'night.

[AlanC9]

But that's just gimping. You can always choose to gimp your character. The complaint is more that the gimping doesn't feel as justified. Take a high charisma fighter in BG - that was a pointless built be cause you could get 18 charisma off an item. And then trade-off was worth it. From a powergame POV.

Well, that's mostly a problem with bad item design.

[slimgrin]

EA's PR has always been golden.

[Bioware-Critic]

Scary... Explains a lot...If games are too hard to learn, man what are we going to do about real life...

 

... rofl!

[Bioware-Critic]

Why stop there we could just have one skill slot and we can press it over and over again like a chimpanzee, they could even give us treats..

 

 

If it takes you two hours to get into a RPG game... Then you are doing it wrong... its not the game its you..

Yes!

 

But .. you see ... that is exactly what this chief exec REALLY has in mind, here!

Never underestimate these guys stupidity and boldness to go and do stupid things. Because they think of themselves as people who cannot go wrong!

 

They WANT to SELL ... regardless if it is your housecat that is buying the title in question ... or your goldfish ... or the homeless person who has no PC or console. He does not care at all! He will stop at nothing until his superior tells him to ...

[AlanC9]

You call it "gimping"... but not everybody plays D&D-based games to have a cheeseburger. There is choice if you forego conversational prowess because you want to be a proper tank; generally it would mean that you'd have to pick specific henchmen. Likewise, if you play a sorcerer or bard with high charisma, you'll probably be thankful for any kind of muscle-packed companion, if only to carry the phat lootz ™, because you can cleverly avoid most fights by convincing your opponents that they are flowerpots in need of water.Also, I'm tired. G'night.

I don't think there are more than a handful of fights you can skip in any Bio game because of high charisma, whatever ruleset they're using. I suppose you could go all RPGCodex and say that Bio games have always sucked, of course. This is just a particular case of Bio not wanting to lock out a lot of content for specific classes or builds.

[Nefla]

Why can't they just make skippable tutorials? Why does everything have to be chopped up, "streamlined," and dumbed down for the benefit of people who wont even care and wont finish these games if they buy them at all?

[TheOgre]

Also for those that think it's a simple fix by raising the difficulty.. The trend currently for boss design is to buff health and damage of the boss per difficulty level raised. No new mechanic or new element to a fight is added.

So essentially if you make an encounter simple at the base level, you lose the technical skill value that would have come with the game if they had added in more elements to the fight initially.

Would be nice if they made the "true" encounter for nightmare difficulty, and then remove certain abilities or elements with each difficulty while also nerf in damage and percentage for the newcomers that just want to experience the game one time only.

[Dracon525]

I'm kinda glad this statement has come out, as it's now showing the truth that I think we all had realised. I 1st noticed it with Sims 4, and then Inquisition. They're making the games way too basic. It's basically The Sims / Dragon Age: Baby Version.

[DanteYoda]

Preferred Version 2 of Shadowrun myself, and if you needed ease of use go Palladium RPG's

[In Exile]

You call it "gimping"... but not everybody plays D&D-based games to have a cheeseburger. There is choice if you forego conversational prowess because you want to be a proper tank; generally it would mean that you'd have to pick specific henchmen. Likewise, if you play a sorcerer or bard with high charisma, you'll probably be thankful for any kind of muscle-packed companion, if only to carry the phat lootz ™, because you can cleverly avoid most fights by convincing your opponents that they are flowerpots in need of water.

Also, I'm tired. G'night.

 

Well, not exactly. D&D has lots of classes, each of which have a few very narrow builds. You have a wizard, which is OP and basically renders all classes irrelevant and redundant. Then you have the other classes, which support different builds. BG1 had 0 conversation RP or quest variation, so obviously we shouldn't even consider it. Like I said - you could have lots of weak and terrible builds that you give some headcannon gloss, but that doesn't mean you have more choices than in DA:I. You can have lots of complete crap builds in DA:I.

 

G'night. 

 

No, that's not gimping. It's called building a character. Yeah, I could play the typical heavy armor tank in D&D our I could play a fighter who relies on finesse. Wears light armor is intelligent and very charismatic. All these options were in DA:O.( except light armor I believe )

 

Light armour was an option (b/c the STR requirement was low). But stats don't really mean anything. Again, it's back to crap builds. 

[Bioware-Critic]

I'm seeing the future.

 

*Crappy dumbed down DA game is released*

 

Tutorial: Put thumb on stick. Push forward to move player ahead. Tap X button with finger repeatedly to kill enemy.

 

*Logs onto BSN and sees thread, "Can't pass tutorial. Pleeeeeease help."

 

... rofl!

[Eelectrica]

ITT: Confirmation Bias

He said nothing wrong. If a game takes longer than 2 hours just to learn the fundamentals (like moving, pew-pewing, basic combat) it's either complex for the sake of complexity or flawed.

I don't think anyone here would like to sit through a 10 hour tutorial on how to push a button.

If it's taking someone 2hrs to figure out how to play DA:I they need to go back farmville and keep milking virtual cows. Or whatever they hell it is they do in those games.

 

Edit: If he's talking of making things like Tac-cam a little better and feel a little less awkward, that would be cool though. I can use tac-cam just fine, but yeah tweaks to how it operates  would be welcome.

[AlanC9]

Why can't they just make skippable tutorials? Why does everything have to be chopped up, "streamlined," and dumbed down for the benefit of people who wont even care and wont finish these games if they buy them at all?

Wait... how does a skippable tutorial solve the problem of it taking players too long to learn how to start playing the game? If anything, it makes it worse, since now you've got a bunch of tutorial before the actual game starts.

[AWTEW]

Sounds like PR team has been smoking too much happy grass.

[Nefla]

Wait... how does a skippable tutorial solve the problem of it taking players too long to learn how to start playing the game? If anything, it makes it worse, since now you've got a bunch of tutorial before the actual game starts.

It gives new players the hand-holding they supposedly need, but lets existing players skip it and the entire game doesn't need to be dumbed down, just the tutorial. I think maybe new players are taking too long to figure it out on their own.

[Nykara]

You would think that developers and publishers would realise by now that in dropping the complexity of games they loose customers and credibility AND the games flop in the long run.