334 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

It gives new players the hand-holding they supposedly need, but lets existing players skip it and the entire game doesn't need to be dumbed down, just the tutorial. I think maybe new players are taking too long to figure it out on their own.

That is a solution for a different problem, one that I'm not sure actually exists (Edit: for Bio games, anyway)). The problem the EA guy mentioned isn't stupid players, it's players with not much time and lots of other options for their time, who don't want to spend two hours getting proficient enough in a game for it to be fun. A skippable tutorial leaves such a player just where he was before, except now he can't even engage with the plot while learning the game.

[Rawgrim]

If people don't really have to play games, they should consider other things as entertainment, really. The people who has time to fully use the product that is being sold, shouldn't get a "lesser product" handed to them simply because others don't have the time or the I.Q to play it.

[Eelectrica]

That is a solution for a different problem, one that I'm not sure actually exists (Edit: for Bio games, anyway)). The problem the EA guy mentioned isn't stupid players, it's players with not much time and lots of other options for their time, who don't want to spend two hours getting proficient enough in a game for it to be fun. A skippable tutorial leaves such a player just where he was before, except now he can't even engage with the plot while learning the game.

Perhaps we need more clarification on exactly what EA guy means.

 

On normal or easy, a player doesn't have to even look at the tac-cam, or  be overly concerned about character builds or crafting.

Just point the character in the general direction of the quest marker, hold down a button to swing a sword/fire a bow/staff, and occasionally hit a button to activate a power. If that's too complicated, I don't know what to say.

[KaiserShep]

Eh, you never really had to look at the tac cam in any of these games on normal or casual.

[SmilesJA]

I almost read it as the "end of gamers". 

[Bioware-Critic]

Well.. they could have shared. But all we got was DA:I instead.

 

Yeah ... that's because they are so greedy ...

 

These little mushroom addicts

 

... ah well ... at least they are really cute when they try to think for themselves     

[Eelectrica]

This is where people confuse depth with complexity. People want games with depth but just making it hard to understand and use isn't deep it is just hard to use. Chess isn't a complex game (they can teach pigeons to play) it is very deep game though.

EA guy learning chess: "What do you mean that piece can only move in two directions, and that one can only move in a 'L' shape? Game needs to be easy to learn, screw it, allow the pieces to move anywhere!"

Designer: "But it's a strategy game, if we allow all pieces free movement..."

EA Guy: "Easy to learn dammit!"

Designer: "It could have been a great strategy game *SIGH*"

[Bioware-Critic]

That is a solution for a different problem, one that I'm not sure actually exists (Edit: for Bio games, anyway)). The problem the EA guy mentioned isn't stupid players, it's players with not much time and lots of other options for their time, who don't want to spend two hours getting proficient enough in a game for it to be fun. A skippable tutorial leaves such a player just where he was before, except now he can't even engage with the plot while learning the game.

 

 

Well, as already has been pointed out here in this thread: "Then they should go back playing farm-ville and milk some virtual cows!"

 

No one in their right mind would give a genuine racing car to anybody without a drivers licence or a racing licence ...

To dismantle the RPG genre to make it more accessable for complete morons is not really the smart thing to do and to go about this whole thing!

 

If these brick-heads (of potentially customers) cannot figure out a simple RPG or are not willing to have a learning curve that goes along with it ...

 

- which is a theory anyway and also a theory which I would dispute to be false -

 

... then they really should not buy a game that goes on for 50 hours or potentially several hundred hours !!!

 

IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ???

 

Anybody who does not understand this has my dearest sympathies, indeed ...

 

To put it in layman terms: "If you want to make use of your brain ... you have to turn it ... on ... first!"

 

If there are indeed people out there who simply cannot find the "switch" ... they should be playing mobile games ... And the publishers should be selling them something else, really. Something they will frequently buy and something they can understand and do like instead of something they don't have the patience for.

[Kondorr]

Mass Effect 2? That's the most shallow product to come out of post-EA BioWare!

 

There are no words that could describe how much I do not agree..

[Paul E Dangerously]

The funniest thing is that their flagship game - Madden - is filled to the brim with all sorts of depth. Offensive and defensive playbooks, building a team, balancing a salary cap, scouting and recruiting (including all sorts of stats!).

 

Odd how people aren't too stupid to play that.

 

So why does Dragon Age have to be reduced to "press 1-2-3, repeat"?

 

 

There are no words that could describe how much I do not agree..

 

I like ME2 well enough, but it's so simplified that it hurts. Even Bioware realized this because they brought back the complexity they ripped out of ME1 when ME3 rolled around.

[Rawgrim]

The funniest thing is that their flagship game - Madden - is filled to the brim with all sorts of depth. Offensive and defensive playbooks, building a team, balancing a salary cap, scouting and recruiting (including all sorts of stats!).

 

Odd how people aren't too stupid to play that.

 

So why does Dragon Age have to be reduced to "press 1-2-3, repeat"?

 

Funny you should mention that. If you play career mode in Fifa, you have way more skills and stats to play around with than in DA:I. The bar of an rpg game has been lowered so much that a soccer game is now more complex....Stunning.

[wolfhowwl]

There are no words that could describe how much I do not agree..

 

ME2 is simple though.

 

You have fewer weapons than ME3, no weapon modding, shorter skill trees, and the combo system is less developed.

[Rawgrim]

ME2 is simple though.

 

You have fewer weapons than ME3, no weapon modding, shorter skill trees, and the combo system is less developed.

 

They aren't even skills, really. It is different kinds of ammo. That should be a mod on the gun itself, not a skill.

[BackdoorPaco]

Edit: Site decided to post before I wrote anything 

[wolfhowwl]

They aren't even skills, really. It is different kinds of ammo. That should be a mod on the gun itself, not a skill.

 

I agree. In ME3 MP ammo is a mod so you can do things like switch to disruptor ammo when playing Geth. It would have been nice to have than in SP.

[uzivatel]

At times "hardcore" gamers sound like bunch of whinners who dont want the new kids to join the fun, because they would feel less exclusive.
 

All things considered, I'd guess he figured out his job in 2 hours or less.

Most of us dont play video games for living and we have different standards for our job and our hobby.

I agree. In ME3 MP ammo is a mod so you can do things like switch to disruptor ammo when playing Geth. It would have been nice to have than in SP.

What would be the reason to use tech classes and soldiers, if you could slap tech-based ammo on biotic party members?

[Rawgrim]

At times "hardcore" gamers sound like bunch of whinners who dont want the new kids to join the fun, because they would feel less exclusive.
 
Most of us dont play video games for living and we have different standards for our job and our hobby.

What would be the reason to use tech classes and soldiers, if you could slap tech-based ammo on biotic party members?

 

The ammo goes into the gun. It has nothing to do with the guy pulling the trigger.

[Sidney]

The ammo goes into the gun. It has nothing to do with the guy pulling the trigger.

...of course given the way ammo should work in that game most ammo types make no real sense anyway if you are just shaving off a bit of metal and accelerating it.

[Sidney]

ME2 is simple though.
 
You have fewer weapons than ME3, no weapon modding, shorter skill trees, and the combo system is less developed.

You have weapon mods, you just apply them to all your weapons which frankly makes more sense than the goofy two mods only allowed for some arbitrary reason in ME3.

[uzivatel]

The ammo goes into the gun. It has nothing to do with the guy pulling the trigger.

 

Its not just the ammo - biotic classes should have access to tech powers as those are omnitool based. No skill points required and the tech cooldowns should be independent on biotic cooldowns.

Damn, those tech classes should be even more useless than I originally thought.

[JCFR]

Well, well, well, EA... it really never ceases to amaze me, how you guys can come up with stupid and unfounded statements.

I mean seriously, what do you think is s complicated bout your actual games? Inquisition als already a no-brainer compared to older Rpgs.

 

Didn't you learn from the success of games like dark souls, that it's not all about being easy to grasp? A game with complexity can be rewarding in it's own way.

Let's take a game, which made me fall for Rpgs: Baldur's Gate. It was the first Rpg i ever played... it was clunky, bulky and at times unforgiving... but that was also kinda whatmade it's charms. You got the rules, learned how things work out, got slowly but steadily better until you reached a point where it wasn't all about surviving fights anymore but looking for challenges. 

 

The cool things about Rpgs is, they give you an environment with some rules and some options and leave it up to you, how to deal with it.

I don't want some developer to take my hand and lead me on.

I know, there's only cash on your mind, but get this: Gamers are intelligent human beings so stop treating us like cows.

And know this, too: After shallowness of Inquisition i'm really looking much more forward to "Tides of numenara" and "Pillars of eternity", than ME4.  

[AlanC9]

Well, as already has been pointed out here in this thread: "Then they should go back playing farm-ville and milk some virtual cows!"
 
No one in their right mind would give a genuine racing car to anybody without a drivers licence or a racing licence and yet you are kind of talking about ... to dismantle the RPG genre ... to make it more accessable for complete morons! That is what you are doing, AlanC9, by defending these EA guys - nothing else!

This is really silly, assuming that you're replying to me rather than just randomly ranting. What I did in the post you replied to was point out that Nefla's suggestion has nothing to do with what the EA guy was talking about. If he wants to say that the EA guy was wrong and his problem doesn't actually exist, that's fine. But then there's no point in proposing a fix for that nonexistent problem.

 

If these brick-heads (of potentially customers) cannot figure out a simple RPG or are not willing to have a learning curve that goes along with it ...

- which is a theory anyway and also a theory which I would dispute to be false -

 
... then they really should not buy a game that goes on for 50 hours or potentially several hundred hours !!!

IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ???

Why can't someone want a long game without a steep learning curve? There was this little thing called Skyrim that I hear didn't do too badly.

Incidentally, I think you're being a little hysterical here. The EA guy was talking in general terms. Interpreting those couple of lines to mean that he thinks all EA games should therefore be extremely simple would be very, very stupid.

What's with all the colors and centering, anyway? Your posts are starting to look like a 90s webpage.

[hostaman]

You would think that developers and publishers would realise by now that in dropping the complexity of games they loose customers and credibility AND the games flop in the long run.

 

Quite the reverse.

 

If they pandered only to the tiny minority who are fanatical gamers posting on sites like this, the profits would be so low that there would be no games of this type at all.

 

Just read through all the things people want on this site. More story, more cinematics, more characters, city scapes, etc. This doesn't come for free. It's being bank rolled by the millions of "casual" gamers you love to deride so much.

 

If everyone on this site stopped buying DA games it would make a tiny ripple in the profits.  The games must be aimed at a wide audience, that's the simple reality.

[Sunbrow]

This is exactly what I am talking about since my first day here on this forum!

 

The world of VG production is run by complete jack-asses and we are the once who have to repair it by screaming so loud that the brains of these EA bastards turn on by accident! And the devs of this world are sliding on their knees before these half-wits and are bagging for money:

 

"Please oh you almighty Gods of eternal wisdom ... please give us life ... we are nothing without you ..."

 

And they dare to call this forum "negative" - "§$&$&/)§%&(§%&/)

 

And I am supposed to stay mentally sane despite all of this ...

 

Most of the time I ask myself if I have written my postings to harsh or too negative. Or if anybody will read my stuff when it is always about the same issues and topics? (Example: "F*ucks are ruining the VG industry!")

 

But now ... man ... my conscience has been freed of the weight I used to carry. I tell you!

 

 

 

This is the world we live in today ...

 

 

Here is the link to that graphic I posted. It is from gamasutra ...

http://www.gamasutra...cious_cycle.php

Wow I had to repost this just because I love all the hard work ( like a power point demo)...well I love Jack too...

Glad to see my fellow gamers have standards.  I was feeling alone out there thinking man...this falls under a RPG?...more like an  arcade button mashing game with cool movies. Well keep this up, it provides incentive that I'm not alone in my dismay. 

[In Exile]

Funny you should mention that. If you play career mode in Fifa, you have way more skills and stats to play around with than in DA:I. The bar of an rpg game has been lowered so much that a soccer game is now more complex....Stunning.

 

The main difference is that those stats are perfectly intuitive to someone who's played sports before. Their effect on the pitch is pretty obvious and intuitive as well. This is about the opposite from RPGs, and actually anathema to the design of most venerated isometric RPGs.