226 réponses à ce sujet

[aliastasia]

@ardarn - His reply is fair enough. He is right, he does not have to frequent the fora.
That's what you have functioning community moderators for.

We're not even asking for regular communication in this forum, we are asking for any communication at all in regards to patches and bugs, instead of hoodies and fanart contests, or youtube videos showing how the game was made in social media.
None of those address the issues of those having problems. 
And the reason we're talking with eachother in THIS specific forum, is shared misery, concern, and a validation that we're not imagining things when yet another quest misfires - if it fires at all.

I pre-ordered. In my local currency, at 77 USD - 559 Norwegian kroner. I also wanted to go MP with one of my best friends, so he got a copy too
It didn't keep food out of my fridge, but it was something I had to set money aside for
If nothing else, have the decency to respect a purchasing audience by showing them a minimum of courtesy if you want them to keep buying, especially with CDPR, Bethesda, and ex-BioWare employees as competition for the next game, because customer relations, no matter if its PR or not, WILL affect coming bottom-lines.

It sure as h.ell will ensure I won't pre-order from BioWare again, and won't pick up a game until I have hit metacritic and had a look at the forums - and as not every critic at steam or metacritic is bought, if there is yet again a gaping dscrepancy between users and reviewers, no way in h.ell am I picking it up.

/A




 

[Octarin]

Well, I have replied before, in agreement, but, /bump cause this isn't changing any, and it's getting close to a semester since release soon, and some of us still can't play the game. 

[TheOgre]

I disagree with you despair demon on the Amelia situation but only in part.

And my thoughts Bioware? Should probably reevaluate the current cms job. They let the situation on the feedback forum get to this point. It might be unfair to put in on one man but no communication with the fan base leads to passionate anger and resentment.

If he refuses to post here, on the forums, they could save money by not having his position at all on payroll.

[Xralius]

They know they can't fix this travesty if a game. They will continue LYING to their fans and axting like it's a true sequel to DA:O.

[Teddie Sage]

Guys, this isn't a hate thread. Please stay on topic. The original post is about forumers who want to hear more about what the programmers and the writing team have to say about the feedback. I'm trying to keep this thread in the most peaceful environment as possible. So please, behave...

[aliastasia]

Point.
Ok - I do want to put my money where my mouth is.
If people want - I will be happy to set up a bug tracking database.
I will need a "buy-in" from 10 people minimum and I will need people to use it.
In return, I can, in addition to wading through reports, teach people how to report bugs, and provide stats on what the most common issues are, on all platforms.
Numbers should be easier to digest than the opinions attached to the bug reports.

Let me know if y'all are interested. If not, no problem

 

/A

 

//buy-in = commitment to use - not money. Not taking money for this. Just to be clear

[spacefiddle]

communicating with fans is something the developers usually do in their free time, 

 

Quite probably true.  At the same time, communicating with customers is something community managers are paid to do.

 

If I went to ComicCon dressed as a Volus and had no other relationship with the company, I'd be a "fan."

As I am someone who paid cash for a product, I am a customer.

As I am a customer who received a product that does not fully function nor match advertised features of those functions, I am a dissatisfied customer.

 

Do any of the above things excuse being a rude jerk?  Nope.

Do a bunch of rude jerks excuse a company from being accountable to all of its customers?  Nope.

Is it unreasonable to expect that company employees interact with customers in a place that's clearly labeled "this is where customers interact with the company?" Still nope.

[spacefiddle]

Point.
Ok - I do want to put my money where my mouth is.
If people want - I will be happy to set up a bug tracking database.
I will need a "buy-in" from 10 people minimum and I will need people to use it.
In return, I can, in addition to wading through reports, teach people how to report bugs, and provide stats on what the most common issues are, on all platforms.
Numbers should be easier to digest than the opinions attached to the bug reports.

Let me know if y'all are interested. If not, no problem

 

/A

 

//buy-in = commitment to use - not money. Not taking money for this. Just to be clear

 

I'm in.  If this gets off the ground I will see if I can flag down the folks working on the Community Patch over at NexusMods.  So far it only fixes the two unobtainable Shards in the Hinterlands, but it does fix them.  Probably most things will be unmoddable, but if we could get something clear for them to look at, it would probably help.

[aliastasia]

Awesome
The reason for wanting x amount of people is a minimum of redundancy and also a reasonably reliable amount of reporters.
If they're gearing up on story DLC, it means more DLC will be coming for a while to come - ME4 is not due until sometime next year, but that's not written in stone, and that means money will need to come in from somewhere in addition to trickle and franchise sales - which in turn means there will be patches in the DLC or patches released before or after DLC.
So - if we want to be constructive, let's go and be constructive - if nothing else, then we'll have tried to make the effort, and that makes it a lot harder to dismiss us as an entitled minority.

 

/A

[spacefiddle]

So - if we want to be constructive, let's go and be constructive - if nothing else, then we'll have tried to make the effort, and that makes it a lot harder to dismiss us as an entitled minority.

 

/A

 

I am all for this effort; but many people have been extremely constructive, and some others have poured their hearts out, to little response or effect.  Realize that the dismissal of dissatisfied customers is not a logical conclusion based on data; it is a conscious decision by EA to spin "customer issues with misleading product" as "small minority of toxic jerks."  It is spin because they only talk - at length - about the toxic jerks, and speak very little if at all about the legitimate issues of the majority of those who remain, and even then,  some BWEA posts use language that paint BWEA solving those issues as extra benefits or entitlements that may be graciously provided to "fans."

 

So I admire your enthusiasm, but no amount of trying to demonstrate how constructive many of us are will succeed as you envision, because that was never the issue to begin with.  So why do I want to help you?  Because I believe it is a good thing to do, regardless of motive or intended effect, and I believe it will help anyone trying to solve the game's issues - be they devs or modders.

[ardarn]

Herevis the original thread with his answer.

http://forum.bioware...w-months/page-5

And Mr Gaider 2. Reply:

Perhaps what you really want is to be a Community Manager yourself?

I could see it being frustrating if you perceived the role of the forums as a way to "get a response" from the dev team about anything, whether it be a complaint or an attempt to engage the team in some kind of discussion about our future plans. That's really never been its role, but it seems you think it should be-- or at least be more active it engaging the folks who choose (for whatever reason) to hang around here? Fair enough. Personally, I'd see any kind of organized effort to engage in that discussion as too much effort for far too little gain, with most of the time likely to be spent correcting misunderstandings or policing...but that's not for me to decide. My only decision has been that I don't spend my free time doing it any longer.

[aliastasia]

I know people have been super-constructve - as I said earlier, I think everybody posting here was very aware of the ME3 debacle, and I don't think anyone wants a reprise.
Having said that, it's harder to maintain the policy of entitled jerks if we have hard, well reported data to refute that, in addition to just making a constructive effort to be heard.
Data isn't 400 cupcakes, it's harder to get rid of ;-)

/A

[ardarn]

@ardarn - His reply is fair enough. He is right, he does not have to frequent the fora.
That's what you have functioning community moderators for.

We're not even asking for regular communication in this forum, we are asking for any communication at all in regards to patches and bugs, instead of hoodies and fanart contests, or youtube videos showing how the game was made in social media.
None of those address the issues of those having problems.
And the reason we're talking with eachother in THIS specific forum, is shared misery, concern, and a validation that we're not imagining things when yet another quest misfires - if it fires at all.

I pre-ordered. In my local currency, at 77 USD - 559 Norwegian kroner. I also wanted to go MP with one of my best friends, so he got a copy too
It didn't keep food out of my fridge, but it was something I had to set money aside for
If nothing else, have the decency to respect a purchasing audience by showing them a minimum of courtesy if you want them to keep buying, especially with CDPR, Bethesda, and ex-BioWare employees as competition for the next game, because customer relations, no matter if its PR or not, WILL affect coming bottom-lines.
It sure as h.ell will ensure I won't pre-order from BioWare again, and won't pick up a game until I have hit metacritic and had a look at the forums - and as not every critic at steam or metacritic is bought, if there is yet again a gaping dscrepancy between users and reviewers, no way in h.ell am I picking it up.

/A

I agree. This was my answer for the other thread, I just repost it.

To be honest I am kinda surprised at Mr Gaider's response. I don't understand why they think we think the developers need to answer our questions. I understand the hastle they need to go through if they engaged in conversation here.

How about if they don't. In the news section they make a locked thread and once a week or 2 they do an update. This way we know they are here, they read feedback and still they could keep their sanity.

I am only asking any kinds of acknowledment that anyone from the company reads these threads and it is not for vain For giving back feedback. As of now besides the few developers who took from their much appreciated freetime to respond, there is just nobody here.

[Terodil]

Data isn't 400 cupcakes, it's harder to get rid of ;-)

As I said before, I admire your effort and dedication, aliastasia. Unfortunately I have personally made the experience that the old trick -- if a problem doesn't go away, close your eyes and pretend it isn't there -- seems to be particularly en vogue with the decision makers, aka management.

I once built a defect tracking system for a car manufacturer. It would allow a very precise analysis of where defects originated, where they were initially detected, and where (and with how much effort) they were fixed -- all for very little data entry and analysis effort. Initial management response on project approval: "OMG yes, gief nao, need yesterday." Final management response on project delivery: "OMG, now all the other managers will know about the skeletons in my closet. *extended cough* Yeah, well done, but not particularly useful for us because... er... reasons. Go away."

Transparency is great as long as it doesn't deliver just that. =/

Anyway, I just posted this in a PM to a friend, I feel this is related to our situation in general:



Be happy people, however you want. I'm currently playing SWTOR again and having a blast with the great imperial storylines.

[aliastasia]

Setting up an independent bug tracker is a case of installing a database and configuring the UI to sort incoming items, allow signups and reporting.

Small job.
It has zip to do with dedication or enthusiasm, it has to do with "if plan A doesn't work, let's try plan B" - I'd rather do that, before just bowing out after a major bitching session and never again buying from a company that's given me many hours of fun over the years.

And thanks for sharing the img - so incredibly... thoughtful.

/A

[Terodil]

Yes, it was thoughtful. It was a small cheer-up afterthought after trying to spare you the disappointment I experienced in many similar situations over the years in quality management positions. Sorry if it didn't work.

By all means, try your luck. I even wish you the best.

[DanteYoda]

I think Developers and Marketers seem to think their job stops when a game has been shipped, that is wrong the games need continual support for a least two years after shipping, if it cuts into budgets, budget better...

[Teddie Sage]

Me thinks that the Answer HQ seems to be the only place where they are really serious about showing up though. Then why does the feedback section exist here? Shouldn't it link back to the other boards? *shrugs*

[spacefiddle]

Again they have no obligation to communicate with us.

 

I'm not sure what data or information you're basing this assertion on.  You state it as if it is a fact.  What backs this up as a fact?  It sounds more like an opinion, to me.  You should probably preface statements like this, such as, "I think they have no obligation," or "I don't feel they should be obligated."

 

Otherwise, the assertion does not stand.

 

For instance, I assert that they do, in fact, have an obligation to communicate with us.  I base this assertion on several things:

• Years of experience in the professional world, where a business communicates with its customers regularly
• The relationship of a customer and a seller, where a customer does not get a fully-functioning product
• The general purpose of a forum, as mentioned by others above; this is a well-understood purpose of a forum, and creates an expectation if not obligation, but is an additional factor that contributes to the above
• The existence of multiple communications directly from devs to a certain segment of customers, while at the same time stating that they don't feel like communicating with other segments of customers for various reasons.  A business has an obligation to all of its customers.
• The existence of a community manager, who's not here "in their free time" but as part of their job description
• The continued promises of "more info soon" from various employees, which creates an obligation to follow up

There may be more, but those are the ones I can quickly list off the top of my head.

 

I don't understand the posts that appear now and then, claiming that the company that sold us a product that does not work as advertised - or, in some cases, at all - are using their "free time" to communicate with its customers and address customer issues.  I also do not understand why there is such an effort to call customers "fans;"  I'm not wearing Bioware face paint, I'm someone who paid money for a product, and that product has some issues.  

 

Very odd.

[aliastasia]

Yes, it was thoughtful. It was a small cheer-up afterthought after trying to spare you the disappointment I experienced in many similar situations over the years in quality management positions. Sorry if it didn't work.

By all means, try your luck. I even wish you the best.

Again - thank you so much. However, I have to admit that as an adult of many years, I have come to realise that I can't control other's behaviour, only my expectations, and my expectations to myself.
But again - so, very, very thoughtful to brace me for disappointment before the stuff even has enough people to get realised, I do so appreciate those carefully phrased uptalks.

So - ten people to commit on this or it ain't happening - I am totally cool with either, for me it's more a light candle instead of cursing darkness thing, but also realise my idea may not be what's needed.

/A

[aliastasia]

I'm not sure what data or information you're basing this assertion on.  You state it as if it is a fact.  What backs this up as a fact?  It sounds more like an opinion, to me.  You should probably preface statements like this, such as, "I think they have no obligation," or "I don't feel they should be obligated."

 

Otherwise, the assertion does not stand.

 

For instance, I assert that they do, in fact, have an obligation to communicate with us.  I base this assertion on several things:

• Years of experience in the professional world, where a business communicates with its customers regularly
• The relationship of a customer and a seller, where a customer does not get a fully-functioning product
• The general purpose of a forum, as mentioned by others above; this is a well-understood purpose of a forum, and creates an expectation if not obligation, but is an additional factor that contributes to the above
• The existence of multiple communications directly from devs to a certain segment of customers, while at the same time stating that they don't feel like communicating with other segments of customers for various reasons.  A business has an obligation to all of its customers.
• The existence of a community manager, who's not here "in their free time" but as part of their job description
• The continued promises of "more info soon" from various employees, which creates an obligation to follow up

There may be more, but those are the ones I can quickly list off the top of my head.

 

I don't understand the posts that appear now and then, claiming that the company that sold us a product that does not work as advertised - or, in some cases, at all - are using their "free time" to communicate with its customers and address customer issues.  I also do not understand why there is such an effort to call customers "fans;"  I'm not wearing Bioware face paint, I'm someone who paid money for a product, and that product has some issues.  

 

Very odd.

Totally agree on this.
The development team is under no obligation, however, support and/or community management are.
Even if they could not find a replacement for Jessica, some kind of notice would have been welcomed, and people would have understood

This is like getting the silent treatment for no reason, before the complaints even started for real.

/A

[spacefiddle]

Herevis the original thread with his answer.

http://forum.bioware...w-months/page-5

And Mr Gaider 2. Reply:
 

 

Interesting.  Here's my own reply on that thread:

 

http://forum.bioware...ths/?p=18600980

[DaemionMoadrin]

As I said before, I admire your effort and dedication, aliastasia. Unfortunately I have personally made the experience that the old trick -- if a problem doesn't go away, close your eyes and pretend it isn't there -- seems to be particularly en vogue with the decision makers, aka management.

I once built a defect tracking system for a car manufacturer. It would allow a very precise analysis of where defects originated, where they were initially detected, and where (and with how much effort) they were fixed -- all for very little data entry and analysis effort. Initial management response on project approval: "OMG yes, gief nao, need yesterday." Final management response on project delivery: "OMG, now all the other managers will know about the skeletons in my closet. *extended cough* Yeah, well done, but not particularly useful for us because... er... reasons. Go away."

Transparency is great as long as it doesn't deliver just that. =/
 

 

 

So, is that the reason why my Renault suddendly died on me?

[Bocochoco]

So, is that the reason why my Renault suddendly died on me?

Pretty sure that was because it was a Renault

[Teddie Sage]

Who's Renault?