56 réponses à ce sujet

[Bad King]

Was anyone else slightly miffed by the options available as an elf when referred to as Andraste's herald? While I was generally very pleased by the large amount of elf-specific dialogue available in the game, this was an area I found lacking for the reason that there was almost never an option to name yourself the champion of the creators rather than the herald of a prophet of a human god that abandoned the world. 

 

In most conversations relating to this, there tended to be three dialogue options:

1). I have faith that I am Andraste's herald.

2). I have no idea whether or not I am Andraste's herald.

3). I am nobody's herald.

 

All three of these options seemed to have little to no effect on people's attitude towards you: whatever option I picked, people would continue to refer to my character as Andraste's herald. A fourth would have been nice in which you publicly suggest that you are indeed a divine agent, but an agent of a different religion. There was a minor opportunity in the game for you to suggest that you worshipped the creators, but it had no lasting impact.

 

It would have been great if you could quickly brand yourself the champion of Elgar'nan, bringing his vengeance against those who had torn the world apart. The ensuing controversy - that the hero of Thedas claims to be fighting for a heathen god - would have been delicious.

[Lebanese Dude]

Brand yourself whatever you wish.

 

The Humans of the South are Andrastian and therefore they will see you as a divine symbol according to their own beliefs.

They won't care what you say or think on the matter as long as you keep doing the "Maker's work".

[Bad King]

Brand yourself whatever you wish.

 

The Humans of the South are Andrastian and therefore they will see you as a divine symbol according to their own beliefs.

They won't care what you say or think on the matter as long as you keep doing the "Maker's work".

 

But you can't brand yourself whatever you wish - that is the purpose of my thread. You can only choose one of three options (Andrastian Theist/Fully Agnostic/Atheist). A fourth option would have added more realism to playing as a Dalish elf. Also, the people would certainly care about your opinion on the matter if they considered you the herald of their religion. It would be somewhat reminiscent of the Pope announcing that Islam is the correct religion.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

It's the same for ANY race. Say you aren't the herald, don't believe in Andraste, don't know, etc... until the dathrasi come home for all anyone cares. To them you ARE the Herald of Andraste, and that includes everyone in the inquisition. At most you get told that it doesn't matter what you believe, since everyone else believes you are the Herald.

 

No point having other choices since the ones we have don't matter anyway - you're the herald, like it or not.

[SurelyForth]

It's frustrating, yeah, but realistic. People are going to believe what they believe, and the belief that the Inquisitor is the Herald of Andraste is a major driving force for acceptance of the Inquisition. Your objections to the title mostly impact conversations you have with your companions, but nobody outside of that group gives a **** what you think (and, tbh, a lot of your inner circle, too).

 

If it makes you feel better, a Dalish Elf who worships the Creators and asserts that they are not the Herald of Andraste is actually closer to being in the right, in a meta-theological sense, than any other Inquisitor. You are being influenced and guided- not by Andraste, but by an adjunct of the Elven pantheon. I feel like that has to count for something, right?

[Bad King]

It's the same for ANY race. Say you aren't the herald, don't believe in Andraste, don't know, etc... until the dathrasi come home for all anyone cares. To them you ARE the Herald of Andraste, and that includes everyone in the inquisition. At most you get told that it doesn't matter what you believe, since everyone else believes you are the Herald.

 

No point having other choices since the ones we have don't matter anyway - you're the herald, like it or not.

 

IMO it's less of an issue for Dwarf players who revere the Stone or Qunari players roleplaying that they strive to follow the Qun as neither ideology believes in conscious, anthropomorphic deities that intervene in the world in the way that humans and elves do. So stating that 'I am not the herald of anyone' (or something to that effect) is not inconsistent with such races. With a religious Dalish elf however, being fully agnostic or an atheist is not consistent with the character being roleplayed.

[Zombie_Alexis]

I think that was the point though. No matter what you believed, your legend and reputation was beyond your control. I think they emphasized that with all the stories in the codices and how no one was really sure what the truth was anymore. For example, who or what Corypheus was, who or what Fen'Harel was, who or what Mythal was... the truth of who they were was all surrounded by myth and stories.

[Abyss108]

Well you don't have any reason to believe you are a Herald of a different God. They didn't just start calling you the Herald of Andraste because you got some weird magic hand, it's because they thought they saw Andraste herself lead you out of the fade in Andrastian church.

 

Your character can't even remember what happened, so has no reason to attribute anything to a different God, even if the story fit a different religion as well. You'd need to have something to back it up, if you thought it was an Elvhen God, or the game could let you claim you believed any infinite number of things for no reason.

[Killdren88]

You wanted the Inquisitor to publicly decree to all the Kingdoms that you don't give a damn about Andraste or the Maker? A bit presumptuous that they would care about your personal opinion on the matter. I hate the tittle as well, but I don't go around telling people not to call me that or I hate being called that.

[Bad King]

Well you don't have any reason to believe you are a Herald of a different God. They didn't just start calling you the Herald of Andraste because you got some weird magic hand, it's because they thought they saw Andraste herself lead you out of the fade in Andrastian church.

 

Your character can't even remember what happened, so has no reason to attribute anything to a different God, even if the story fit a different religion as well. You'd need to have something to back it up, if you thought it was an Elvhen God, or the game could let you claim you believed any infinite number of things for no reason.

 

Actually, it's because you saw a feminine entity in the Fade. If most of the Andrastians interpret this as Andraste (including a religious inquisitor), then why shouldn't an inquisitor faithful to the creators interpret the entity as one of the Dalish gods (particularly when the only survivor of the conclave was a worshipper of these gods)? 

[zambingo]

Just because the Chantry uplifts Andraste that doesn't mean she; was what they say, isn't what they say or some thing that blends many point of views*. This is the same historical situation the Inquisitor is now living thru.

*eg. Just because we see evidence of Mythal and the Dread Wolf doesn't invalidate say... The Stone or The Maker. As Forrest Gump was fond of saying, "Maybe both things can be happen-ning at the same time."

As such whether your PC believes [insert something] or out right rages against Faith the game gives just enough and yet still nothing much for us to know anything of certainty.

Lastly, if you don't believe or don't know something exists that doesn't preclude that thing from existing and using you.

[Abyss108]

Actually, it's because you saw a feminine entity in the Fade. If most of the Andrastians interpret this as Andraste (including a religious inquisitor), then why shouldn't an inquisitor faithful to the creators interpret the entity as one of the Dalish gods (particularly when the only survivor of the conclave was a worshipper of these gods)? 

 

Well the Dalish believe all their gods apart from Fen'Harel have been locked away, so it wouldn't make any sense for one to be free and helping you. If you believe in the Creators, you believe they wouldn't be able to help you.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

And as a Dalish why could that have not been Falon'Din, or the spirit of Koslun, or another founder of the matriarchy for a qunari? A dwarf, since the fade would be entirely foreign to them, would not know what to make of it at all.

[Bad King]

You wanted the Inquisitor to publicly decree to all the Kingdoms that you don't give a damn about Andraste or the Maker? A bit presumptuous that they would care about your personal opinion on the matter. I hate the tittle as well, but I don't go around telling people not to call me that or I hate being called that.

 

IIRC, you can have Josephine make an official statement that you're not Andraste's herald (in an atheistic sense) according to yourself. Regardless, my argument in this thread is that it would have been good if the inquisitor could ascribe his powers to the creators rather than the Maker/chance/? rather than not giving a damn about the Andrastian religion.

 

Also, it's not presumptuous at all to expect people to care about the Inquisitor's views - s/he is the one leading the charge against the world-destroying veil tears and bringing peace to the land - someone whose opinion would carry a lot of weight (for good or for ill).

[Bad King]

Well the Dalish believe all their gods apart from Fen'Harel have been locked away, so it wouldn't make any sense for one to be free and helping you. If you believe in the Creators, you believe they wouldn't be able to help you.

 

I could flip this on its head and argue the same thing about human religion which stipulates that the Maker has turned his back on humanity and took Andraste from the world to his side, only to return when the Chant is repeated across Thedas. My point is, religions are often flexible enough to create new explanations for new or unusual phenomena that don't contradict their own faith. It's clear for instance that the elves didn't always believe that Fen'harel trapped all of the creators in heaven: that may have been an explanation made to explain why none of them intervened when the Tevinter Imperium annihilated Elvhen.

[Abyss108]

I could flip this on its head and argue the same thing about human religion which stipulates that the Maker has turned his back on humanity and took Andraste from the world to his side, only to return when the Chant is repeated across Thedas. My point is, religions are often flexible enough to create new explanations for new or unusual phenomena that don't contradict their own faith. It's clear for instance that the elves didn't always believe that Fen'harel trapped all of the creators in heaven: that may have been an explanation made to explain why none of them intervened when the Tevinter Imperium annihilated Elvhen.

 

They may not have always believed that, but it's what they believe now. No Dalish elf has ever suggested otherwise. I'd say it's the defining point of their religion, and you'd need a pretty good reason to suddenly decide it isn't true. I just don't think a glowy lady does that. If it was a glowy lady with Vallaslin symbols, or who spoke Elvhen, or it was in an Elvhen religious place, in regard to some Elvhen event, maybe it could work. But it was a human figure, in a human church, after a human religious figure was killed. And the humans desperately want to believe you're a symbol from their God, because they just witnessed the Divines death and need something to reassure them.

 

Considering you don't even have your memory at the start of the game, all you have to go on is that fact the humans told you a glowy lady helped you. It's a pretty big jump to go from "glowy lady" to "what I've believed my entire life about the Gods being sealed away by Fen'Harel (which is used to explain various other things in our culture) is a lie, the Gods are free, and one is personally helping me and letting the humans believe it was their own God".

[Bad King]

They may not have always believed that, but it's what they believe now. No Dalish elf has ever suggested otherwise. I'd say it's the defining point of their religion, and you'd need a pretty good reason to suddenly decide it isn't true. I just don't think a glowy lady does that. If it was a glowy lady with Vallaslin symbols, or who spoke Elvhen, or it was in an Elvhen religious place, in regard to some Elvhen event, maybe it could work. But it was a human figure, in a human church, after a human religious figure was killed. And the humans desperately want to believe you're a symbol from their God, because they just witnessed the Divines death and need something to reassure them.

 

Considering you don't even have your memory at the start of the game, all you have to go on is that fact the humans told you a glowy lady helped you. It's a pretty big jump to go from "glowy lady" to "what I've believed my entire life about the Gods being sealed away by Fen'Harel (which is used to explain various other things in our culture) is a lie, the Gods are free, and one is personally helping me and letting the humans believe it was their own God".

 

But as I stated above, humans believe a similar thing about the Maker and Andraste - that he would only turn back to humanity when the Chant is spoken across the world. Yet people nevertheless believe that you're a divine intervention by the Maker via Andraste. In terms of having a reason to believe that the creators intervened, I would argue that to a religious elf, the fact that s/he alone survived the conclave while everybody else (all of whom were of different faiths) perished could be a sign of divine protection from elven gods. With an enormous tear in the Veil, it would not be a stretch to assume that the balance of the world has shifted allowing the creators more intervention in the physical world. The creators are not dead gods - according to Dalish religion they are merely trapped, and caged beings can break free from their prisons. Also, the figure you see is highly ambiguous - it's impossible to tell whether it's human or elven as it was made up of pure light.

[Il Divo]

OP's got a good point, I think. It's not so much about how others see you, but how the Inquisitor seems himself. Given that you have the ability to take an Atheist approach, I don't see why Bioware should not have given Dalish players the ability to take an Elven God approach to the Mark. 

[EmissaryofLies]

So far, so good.

[Blade_RJ]

snip

You don't seem to understand the game, you are not the herald, you ARE A PUPPET ! whose strings are being pulled by the advisors, from the get go, either leliana or josephine tell you to play the part of herald becouse thats how people will see you anyway and THEY CAN USE IT, to their advantage.....even when you found it all false, you must not shatter their faith for its the motivation for the army that follows you.

 

i believe that was a stinger on real religions, and also a way out to diminish the power or inquisition in the next game, remember what morrigan said, mind how high you rise inquisitor, for someone will want to plunge you back down. if the inquisitor is proven as a farse, their army will dissolve, they are basically commoners with training who joined the cause, not mercinaries, just like medieval times during wars.

[Abyss108]

But as I stated above, humans believe a similar thing about the Maker and Andraste - that he would only turn back to humanity when the Chant is spoken across the world. Yet people nevertheless believe that you're a divine intervention by the Maker via Andraste. In terms of having a reason to believe that the creators intervened, I would argue that to a religious elf, the fact that s/he alone survived the conclave while everybody else (all of whom were of different faiths) perished could be a sign of divine protection from elven gods. With an enormous tear in the Veil, it would not be a stretch to assume that the balance of the world has shifted allowing the creators more intervention in the physical world. The creators are not dead gods - according to Dalish religion they are merely trapped, and caged beings can break free from their prisons. Also, the figure you see is highly ambiguous - it's impossible to tell whether it's human or elven as it was made up of pure light.

 

Yes, but the Maker turned away by choice and the humans do believe he will come back, so it's not as "impossible" for that to happen. I thought you didn't remember the figure yourself, just what the humans told you (and they would obviously say it was human), but thinking back I might be 100% wrong about that, so ignore anything I said regarding the figure if that's the case!

 

I guess the whole "only the elf survived" could work as a reason, and the veil rip could maybe justify it. I don't find it enough of a reason, but that's just personal opinion at this point!

 

I would have liked more opportunities to bring up the Elvhen religion at various points. I know there was one option to say you believed in the Elvhen Gods, not the Maker, but I do feel like there should have been more. Everybody keeps bringing up the Andraste thing (which makes sense for their characters) no matter how many times you tell them you don't believe in her, so I think you should have been able to do the same and keep bringing up the Elvhen Gods whenever they insist on doing that. 

[Abyss108]

You don't seem to understand the game, you are not the herald, you ARE A PUPPET ! whose strings are being pulled by the advisors, from the get go, either leliana or josephine tell you to play the part of herald becouse thats how people will see you anyway and THEY CAN USE IT, to their advantage.....even when you found it all false, you must not shatter their faith for its the motivation for the army that follows you.

 

i believe that was a stinger on real religions, and also a way out to diminish the power or inquisition in the next game, remember what morrigan said, mind how high you rise inquisitor, for someone will want to plunge you back down. if the inquisitor is proven as a farse, their army will dissolve, they are basically commoners with training who joined the cause, not mercinaries, just like medieval times during wars.

 

This doesn't make any sense as a reason. If it was true, you wouldn't be able to say you didn't believe in the Maker, and weren't the Herald. Saying the don't believe in the Maker, or that you instead believe in the Creators, wouldn't make a difference.

[Bad King]

You don't seem to understand the game, you are not the herald, you ARE A PUPPET ! whose strings are being pulled by the advisors, from the get go, either leliana or josephine tell you to play the part of herald becouse thats how people will see you anyway and THEY CAN USE IT, to their advantage.....even when you found it all false, you must not shatter their faith for its the motivation for the army that follows you.

 

i believe that was a stinger on real religions, and also a way out to diminish the power or inquisition in the next game, remember what morrigan said, mind how high you rise inquisitor, for someone will want to plunge you back down. if the inquisitor is proven as a farse, their army will dissolve, they are basically commoners with training who joined the cause, not mercinaries, just like medieval times during wars.

 

But the game does offer you plenty of opportunities to state that you are an atheist, including an official statement to Josephine IIRC. As this was possible, there should also be the opportunity to believe yourself the herald of other divine figures IMO.

[Blade_RJ]

This doesn't make any sense as a reason. If it was true, you wouldn't be able to say you didn't believe in the Maker, and weren't the Herald. Saying the don't believe in the Maker, or that you instead believe in the Creators, wouldn't make a difference.

you can say waht you want, you are the herald becouse they want you to be, and that's the only option the game gives you, you can only denounce to close advisors, even the chantry mother call on you twice after haven, that even you are not sent by andraste you should let people belief becouse they are in need of faith......could you scream your lungs, IM NOT THE EFFING HERALD as an option when you were made inquisitor ? NOPE, no such option there, only with cassandra, and you get a disaproval from her.

 

 

But the game does offer you plenty of opportunities to state that you are an atheist, including an official statement to Josephine IIRC. As this was possible, there should also be the opportunity to believe yourself the herald of other divine figures IMO.

 

you are mistaken, if you are talking about the beggining, josephine reply to you, seems to imply she will not run with that, and will instead make up something and hate you for complicating her job.

[Bad King]

you are mistaken, if you are talking about the beggining, josephine reply to you, seems to imply she will not run with that, and will instead make up something and hate you for complicating her job.

 

No, I mean a dialogue option later in the game (post 'Here Lies the Abyss') where you can have her make an official statement that you likely aren't sent by Andraste.