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[Dai Grepher]

Okay, I just dug up the following quote from Morrigan at the Temple of Mythal. This is when she spots the statue of the Dread Wolf:

"...is as blasphemous as painting Andraste naked in the Chantry."

So it seems Dai Grepher is correct in his assertion that Thedasians might find the staff to be inappropriate/disrespectful. Although I'm inclined to agree with TevinterSupremacist's suggestion that Dai made a leap in logic based on his own sense of morality since he didn't provide Morrigan's quote (or anything else) as an example to support his argument that Thedasians might have a problem with this sort of thing.

But never mind. Morrigan has helpfully established precedent here. Nude Andraste renderings would be considered blasphemous by those who hold her in reverence.

However, this doesn't necessarily mean the Inquisitor should give a toss.

The Inquisitor's attitude towards the Chantry is not fixed. It depends on the player, and the player can, for example, have the Inquisitor be very vocal in his/her contempt for the Chantry. And if he/she wants to wield a weapon that dogmatic worshippers of Andraste would be offended by, what's the problem? What are they going to do? Put an ad in the paper to find someone else who's capable of sealing rifts?

Edit: At this point, I'll remind everyone that we've drifted away hopelessly from the original complaint. The OP was laying charges of sexism at Bioware's feet which has nothing to do with what we're discussing now. Not that I have a problem with that. Just pointing it out.

 

No, my opinion was based on facts similar to the one you found. I have not played as far as that part yet, but past examples from Origins and Inquisition led me to conclude what I do. I made no leap in logic. I was just giving my opinion.
 

[Dai Grepher]

What fundamental tenet of the Chantry? That "magic should serve man and never rule over him"? How is merely being an apostate a violation of that? If anything, the mage Inquisitor calling themselves the Herald of Andraste and literally ruling over people is more of a violation of Chantry law than Malcolm and Bethany. Is your Inquisitor now going pick up a sword and shield or give up his position to keep with the Chantry laws? 

 

It's a violation because mages are supposed to be registered and guarded by the Chantry.

 

When the Inquisitor is chosen, the Chantry is in shambles. Plus, the Herald may have done more for the world by this point than the Chantry did. He may have even helped the Chantry by this point. So no, being the nominated leader of a group is not going to upset the entire Chantry. Also, this Inquisitor can do things to support the Chantry, thus showing he is willing to respect the Chantry and aid it. Well, one thing that can be done is to not carry around a Tevinter staff that shows off Andraste's big golden boobs.
 

[DomeWing333]

It's a violation because mages are supposed to be registered and guarded by the Chantry.

 

And the Inquisition is a violation because only the Divine can call an Inquisition and the Inquisition was founded after the Divine's death. So again, just because a person or organization goes against Chantry law does not mean that they go against the Chantry and certainly does not mean that they would show disrespect to Andraste, when they are demonstrably devout Andrastians.

 

Let's also remember that this is about the perspective of our own Inquisitors, which is something we the players get to define. So as the foremost authority on my Inquisitor, I get to determine if he has a problem with the staff or not.

 

And if your perspective were merely "My Inquisitor has a problem with having a nude Andraste on his staff [*giggles*] and thus doesn't use it," then there wouldn't be a problem. The problem comes when you make the statement that a staff with a nude but non-sexualized Andraste on it is "not appropriate for a leader trying to command respect," as if that's a truth in the game world rather than your own subjective bias.

[Dai Grepher]

And the Inquisition is a violation because only the Divine can call an Inquisition and the Inquisition was founded after the Divine's death. So again, just because a person or organization goes against Chantry law does not mean that they go against the Chantry and certainly does not mean that they would show disrespect to Andraste, when they are demonstrably devout Andrastians.

 

 

And if your perspective were merely "My Inquisitor has a problem with having a nude Andraste on his staff [*giggles*] and thus doesn't use it," then there wouldn't be a problem. The problem comes when you make the statement that a staff with a nude but non-sexualized Andraste on it is "not appropriate for a leader trying to command respect," as if that's a truth in the game world rather than your own subjective bias.

 

Justinia was going to call it if the conclave failed, and as her Right Hand, Cassandra was justified in calling it. This course of action was also the only thing that prevented the mages and templars from both being corrupted and turned against Thedas.

 

My perspective would be criticized regardless. But the bottom line is this is my opinion about the people of Thedas and the staff, and I base this on facts I observed in the games. Agree or disagree, it's up to you.
 

[SnakeCode]

I have a problem with the female form... because I didn't criticize Cassandra's T&A?

 

...

No, it's just telling that you said you would go straight to Cassandra if you were going to complain about nudity, when she isn't the only character to get naked in Inquisition. Dorian and IB do as well, but it never entered your thoughts to complain about them. I'm guessing it's because you associate female nudity with sexualisation.

[Dai Grepher]

No, it's just telling that you said you would go straight to Cassandra if you were going to complain about nudity, when she isn't the only character to get naked in Inquisition. Dorian and IB do as well, but it never entered your thoughts to complain about them. I'm guessing it's because you associate female nudity with sexualisation.

 

Or that my Inquisitor is a heterosexual male who romanced Cassandra.

 

Also, the topic is about an inappropriate design of Andraste, a female. So if I was going to have a problem with nudity of the same type, it might make sense to point to a similar example, that being of another female.

[Grieving Natashina]

I get it.  You don't think that mainstream religion, even in Thedas which is not on Earth, is the place for a nude female form.  That it's bad or sacrilegious somehow.

 

That, despite codex entries found in the games (you should actually read them if you using lore to backup your point,) as well as the lore book World of Thedas, somehow the people of Thedas think that nudity in their religion is bad.

 

Spoiler alert, nothing says that they really give a crap about a nude depiction of Andraste outside of the Black Emporium.  I have my hardbound copy of WoT sitting right next to me. 

 

You think that there is something wrong with a nude woman being shown as a religious icon.  So, naked women are fine, as long as they keep their nudity in the bedroom.    

 

By the left of Odin, I will never understand that mentality.

[AiCola]

I had to look this up and found this:

 

 

honestly, you cannot be for real?
THIS offended you?
I think half naked jesus nailed to a cross is way more offensive!!

this could very well be Andraste, you can't even tell that she is supposed to be naked, i wouldn't have thought that to be a naked woman at all.

 

@Natashina:
Morrigon tells you ingame that showind a nude Andraste in the chantry would be very offensive.

[Grieving Natashina]

I don't take Morrigan as an expert resource on the Chantry.   Most of her information was coming from Flemeth, or old books that Flemeth allowed her to read, and I wouldn't call that a subjective source on the subject of the mentality of the Chantry.  Flemeth could have just lied to Morrigan to encourage her to foster even more disdain towards the Chantry.  There isn't anything else in the lore to back that up, so I think either Flemeth lied or Morrigan was trying to troll the devout members of the party.

 

She's also the only person, companion or NPC, outside of the Black Emporium, to bring up the subject of nudity and the Chantry.  

[Dai Grepher]

I get it.  You don't think that mainstream religion, even in Thedas which is not on Earth, is the place for a nude female form.  That it's bad or sacrilegious somehow.

 

That, despite codex entries found in the games (you should actually read them if you using lore to backup your point,) as well as the lore book World of Thedas, somehow the people of Thedas think that nudity in their religion is bad.

 

Spoiler alert, nothing says that they really give a crap about a nude depiction of Andraste outside of the Black Emporium.  I have my hardbound copy of WoT sitting right next to me. 

 

You think that there is something wrong with a nude woman being shown as a religious icon.  So, naked women are fine, as long as they keep their nudity in the bedroom.    

 

By the left of Odin, I will never understand that mentality.

 

The codex for the nude Andraste statute proves the Chantry took great offense to the work that was sculpted by an Orlesian. According to it, the Chantry even had mages cast a spell of invisibility around it so mortal eyes could not see it. The codex is called Andraste in Nude Repose - Invisible.

 

And no, I wasn't saying it had no place in the Andrastian religion. Maybe it does, somewhere, in some artistic way. But that place is not hovering over the Inquisitor's shoulder.

 

Again, that said, I give the staff to Dorian or Solas for irony, or to Vivienne since her boobs are hanging out most of the time anyway, and even then only in Orlais or in the field. But for my Inquisitor, it's not appropriate.
 

If the staff depicted something less detailed, and more basic so that it did not appear as nude but still had the shape of a woman, then I think that would be acceptable. But as it looks now, it's like two big orbs for boobs. It's just inappropriate and distasteful.

 

Clearly you don't understand me. I wrote nothing about woman keeping anything in the bedroom in a video game universe. Besides, my Inquiz and Cass made love outside in a grove. So, not seeing your point here.

[AiCola]

I don't take Morrigan as an expert resource on the Chantry.   Most of her information was coming from Flemeth, or old books that Flemeth allowed her to read, and I wouldn't call that a subjective source on the subject of the mentality of the Chantry.  Flemeth could have just lied to Morrigan to encourage her to foster even more disdain towards the Chantry.  There isn't anything else in the lore to back that up, so I think either Flemeth lied or Morrigan was trying to troll the devout members of the party.

 

She's also the only person, companion or NPC, outside of the Black Emporium, to bring up the subject of nudity and the Chantry.  

 

She says it after she has long left flemeth and even served the empress of Orlais.
And as an apostate i'm sure she has looked into the chantry.

Also cassandrain the party does not disagree with it.

And aren't the female "sisters" all unmarried?
And how coulld anybody get the idea that showing andraste naked is in the spirit of the chantry while playing the games?

I have not looked into Codex or anything, I'm just saying what the game told me

[Grieving Natashina]

 

<snipped for space>

 

 

I don't see yours.  Listen to what you've been saying.  You're saying that you think the nude icon is inappropriate for your Inquisitor.  Fine, you're not forced to use it.   The codex you just mentioned was from the Black Emporium.  Which was about a very detailed statue.  We're talking nipples and pubic hair here.  

 

Not as nude?  You mean, because they put large breasts on the icon?  In a stylized form?  Where there is no nipples, no real lines outside of body shape?  Somehow, having large breasts in that stylized shape is making her "more nude?"  You're taking big breasts as sexualization, when it isn't.

 

Okay, so outside of sex (which is what I meant by the "in the bedroom" comment) a nude woman is not fitting for a religious icon.  Which you confirmed is your mentality, at least when it comes to the Chantry of Thedas.

 

I'm a feminist and I think this is going overboard.  The game isn't forcing you to use it.  There is a lot of folks that obviously don't care and used Malcom's Honor in the previous game.  

 

 

She says it after she has long left flemeth and even served the empress of Orlais.
And as an apostate i'm sure she has looked into the chantry.

Also cassandrain the party does not disagree with it.

And aren't the female "sisters" all unmarried?
And how coulld anybody get the idea that showing andraste naked is in the spirit of the chantry while playing the games?

I have not looked into Codex or anything, I'm just saying what the game told me 

  And she may have looked into the Chantry, but that doesn't mean that even Morrigan wouldn't lie or troll others if she wanted or needed to.   Besides, there is a difference between what some members of the Chantry say, and what the actual Chantry's laws/stories state.

 

Cassandra and Morrigan barely interact at all in the game, so it's not shocking that the DA team didn't record too many lines of dialogue of them.  Word budgets are nasty things.

 

You're confusing nudity and chastity.   Being nude is not a sexual thing in and of itself.

 

You mean, aside from nude and/or topless women being shown as part of the Chantry all the time?  Including in the middle of Crossroads?  Or that the description on the staff Malcom's Honor in the previous game (which is where this topper comes from) is a depiction of Andraste?

 

Out of respect for Grepher, who has been polite despite us disagreeing, I'm going to bow out of the thread for good this time.

[Dai Grepher]

I am not offended by it, I just think it is inappropriate for a pro-Chantry Inquisitor.

 

Emphasizing the boobs makes it disrespectful to Andraste. Not saying all in Thedas would see it that way, but enough would.

 

We aren't forced to use it, but it is one of the best items in the game. Which means we are faced with the choice of either having great stats or being consistent with the game world. OP's point is that we shouldn't have to make that choice. I agree.

 

People who used it in DA2 were not playing as the Inquisitor. For any common mage, it's fine. For the Inquisitor, in many cases, it's not appropriate. It would be like Queen Anora wearing a crown with a sculpture of the Maker's butt showing.

[Farangbaa]

Dude, honestly.

How many more times do people need to explain to you that a naked Andraste really isn't something bad in Thedas?

You keep rehashing the same stuff which everybody and their mom has already responded to.

[Dai Grepher]

That's your opinion that it isn't a big deal. We disagree.

[Farangbaa]

That's not a matter of opinion.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

This thread was funny for a while, there.

 

[Nic Mercy]

I was less than impressed when I first found and made the Masterwork Archon Staff and found that it featured a naked female body. Probably the top staff in the game and when you're a mage inquisitor it is seen over your shoulder almost constantly. 

 

I was prepared to grumble and let it go, I'm playing a warrior this time so won't have to see it all the time any more, right?

 

Then I got the Masterwork Sten Sword Grip and found out that it was a naked woman too. You can see it on your hip in most dialogue and close up scenes and since it's white it attracts the eye. It makes no sense that a Qunari "Sten" grip would be of a naked human female! This irked me so much that I ended up crafting an inferior one instead just so I wouldn't have to think of the inappropriateness of a grip that is a naked female body.

 

Having both these items are the best of their type forces you to choose between having the best gear and constantly feeling uncomfortable. Really Bioware, given the inclusiveness and respect I've come to expect from you this was a big disappointment. 

 

Meh the Seer Staff is better... but I'll say the Archon staff is the 2nd best looking staff IMO (and this is the opinion of guy who digs guys). The BEST looking staff as far as I'm concerned is Tyrdda's staff. Give me the Seer Staff's stat options with Tyrdda's appearance and I'd be a happy camper.

[Fade-Touched-in-the-head]

Also, the topic is about an inappropriate design of Andraste, a female.

No it isn't.

[Gothfather]

No, my opinion was based on facts similar to the one you found. I have not played as far as that part yet, but past examples from Origins and Inquisition led me to conclude what I do. I made no leap in logic. I was just giving my opinion.
 

 

No you are manufacturing an issue that doesn't actually exist because you want to cause a stink.

 

Morrigan making a statement of what is Blasphemous in the Chantry isn't actually coming from someone of authority on Chantry morals and laws. The fact remains that a LOT of art has naked RELIGIOUS figures in it suck it up princess.

 

Ever heard of a famous artist called Michelangelo? Well he made a sculpture of David which is naked as well as christ, naked. The fact is there is a long tradition of art showing religious figures naked. So this whole argument is again a manufactured whine.

So many greek gods are dipecited naked. This idea that nudity doesn't fit with religious icons and is disrespectful is filled with so many holes.

 

http://www.theguardi...dityindecentexp

http://en.wikipedia...._(Michelangelo)

http://listverse.com...est-sculptures/

 

It doesn't take much of a google search to see just how many statues of biblical figures are depicted naked and how many greek and roman gods are naked? how many fertility goddesses are depicted naked?

 

The OP can't even established a constant stance within Christianity that nudity in art of biblical figures is view always negatively. So who's to say that this staff is a problem in a less sexually oppressed societies in Thedas?

 

Stop this faux anger, I am really tired of mock outrage.

[KBomb]

I am not offended by it, I just think it is inappropriate for a pro-Chantry Inquisitor.

Emphasizing the boobs makes it disrespectful to Andraste. Not saying all in Thedas would see it that way, but enough would.

We aren't forced to use it, but it is one of the best items in the game. Which means we are faced with the choice of either having great stats or being consistent with the game world. OP's point is that we shouldn't have to make that choice. I agree.

People who used it in DA2 were not playing as the Inquisitor. For any common mage, it's fine. For the Inquisitor, in many cases, it's not appropriate. It would be like Queen Anora wearing a crown with a sculpture of the Maker's butt showing.

Was it ever established that it is Andraste? If not, then it is simply player-assumed. Just have your Inquisitor believe that it isn't.

If you must follow the status quo, don't use it. Have your Inquisitor throw a righteous protest and refuse to use it on principal.

I refuse to use the staff with the huge blocks on it because it is gaudy and ugly. I never recruited Sten in Origins when playing a HN. I didn't disturb the elven burial grounds while playing an elf in DAI. You go on about player agency, but you have it already. You can choose not to use it. It isn't forced on you.

Meanwhile, it is perfectly acceptable for my pro-chantry Inquisitor. Why? Because I view it as a rebirth of Andraste. She is reborn from the ashes to become something greater. She shed her mortal body and that rebirth is symbolized by her nudity-- as nudity often is. Since you know, none of us are born with loin clothes, even holy people.

[Fade-Touched-in-the-head]

I am not offended by it...

Emphasizing the boobs makes it disrespectful to Andraste...

... we are faced with the choice of either having great stats or being consistent with the game world. OP's point is that we shouldn't have to make that choice. I agree.

You and the OP aren't even making the same arguments. She IS offended by it because... "casual objectification of women."

As for her feelings on it being Andraste...

On it being Andraste, that works for the Archon staff but not the Sten grip. Qunari don't follow Andraste so there isn't any good lore based justification there.

Her complaint pertains to sexism. Yours pertains to the devs ostensibly not being respectful to a prophet they imagined themselves. That's hardly worth the attention you seem desperate to give it. At least the OP's complaint, however right or wrong-headed, is relevant to the real world.

In any event, this is a non-issue. Not because I say so, but because this "controversy" over the staff doesn't even exist outside of this ridiculous thread.

[Dai Grepher]

No you are manufacturing an issue that doesn't actually exist because you want to cause a stink.

 

Morrigan making a statement of what is Blasphemous in the Chantry isn't actually coming from someone of authority on Chantry morals and laws. The fact remains that a LOT of art has naked RELIGIOUS figures in it suck it up princess.

 

Ever heard of a famous artist called Michelangelo? Well he made a sculpture of David which is naked as well as christ, naked. The fact is there is a long tradition of art showing religious figures naked. So this whole argument is again a manufactured whine.

So many greek gods are dipecited naked. This idea that nudity doesn't fit with religious icons and is disrespectful is filled with so many holes.

 

http://www.theguardi...dityindecentexp

http://en.wikipedia...._(Michelangelo)

http://listverse.com...est-sculptures/

 

It doesn't take much of a google search to see just how many statues of biblical figures are depicted naked and how many greek and roman gods are naked? how many fertility goddesses are depicted naked?

 

The OP can't even established a constant stance within Christianity that nudity in art of biblical figures is view always negatively. So who's to say that this staff is a problem in a less sexually oppressed societies in Thedas?

 

Stop this faux anger, I am really tired of mock outrage.

 

I don't want to cause a stink. I'm just posting my opinion.

 

Morrigan is not part of the Chantry, but that doesn't mean she is ignorant of Chantry customs. BioWare spoke through her. It at least indicates that what she said is likely true.

 

Real world examples of nude sculptures are irrelevant to this discussion. As many others here have pointed out, real world opinions of what is acceptable nudity have nothing to do with how the people of Thedas define it.

 

I am not outraged. I'm just pointing out that the staff isn't befitting a pro-Chantry Inquisitor.

[The Hierophant]

I don't buy this "oh but the Chantry" argument because it ignores the individual crafters' attitudes, beliefs and the symbolism regarding nudity, and their faith. Sometimes artists are known to push the envelope and cause controversy.