707 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

Was it ever established that it is Andraste? If not, then it is simply player-assumed. Just have your Inquisitor believe that it isn't.

If you must follow the status quo, don't use it. Have your Inquisitor throw a righteous protest and refuse to use it on principal.

I refuse to use the staff with the huge blocks on it because it is gaudy and ugly. I never recruited Sten in Origins when playing a HN. I didn't disturb the elven burial grounds while playing an elf in DAI. You go on about player agency, but you have it already. You can choose not to use it. It isn't forced on you.

Meanwhile, it is perfectly acceptable for my pro-chantry Inquisitor. Why? Because I view it as a rebirth of Andraste. She is reborn from the ashes to become something greater. She shed her mortal body and that rebirth is symbolized by her nudity-- as nudity often is. Since you know, none of us are born with loin clothes, even holy people.

 

I think that was confirmed in the thread when people referenced DA2.

 

Even if it weren't Andraste, it's still a depiction of a nude woman with emphasized breasts. It's still inappropriate for an Inquisitor who is trying to gain dignity and respect among the people of Thedas.
 

That is what I have my Inquisitor do. He uses different staffs. My complaint isn't that we're forced to use it, because we're not. My complaint is that if we wish to fit with the game's worldview in this matter, we are forced to have our Inquisitor not carry one of the top tier staffs.

 

I don't mind it being Andraste, or even her nude. The problem I have is how emphasized the breasts are. I think if the design showed something more basic and not as detailed and accentuated, or if the current design had a clothing design, then it would be acceptable.

[Dai Grepher]

You and the OP aren't even making the same arguments. She IS offended by it because... "casual objectification of women."

As for her feelings on it being Andraste...


Her complaint pertains to sexism. Yours pertains to the devs ostensibly not being respectful to a prophet they imagined themselves. That's hardly worth the attention you seem desperate to give it. At least the OP's complaint, however right or wrong-headed, is relevant to the real world.

In any event, this is a non-issue. Not because I say so, but because this "controversy" over the staff doesn't even exist outside of this ridiculous thread.

 

Well I can't speak for the OP. Her argument is her own.

 

Mine is relevant to the real world in that it affects the players negatively.

 

If the OP's argument is about sexism in the real world, I'd say that is unimportant to us and to BioWare.

[HuldraDancer]

So how are the breast empathized? Because they are large? Since as far as I could tell the whole body was just shape with no detail. So is the problem suppose to be the size of the breast? Why?

[Angry_Elcor]

Mine is relevant to me and my own personal offense in that it affects me by making me offended.

 

Fixed that for you.

[Dai Grepher]

So how are the breast empathized? Because they are large? Since as far as I could tell the whole body was just shape with no detail. So is the problem suppose to be the size of the breast? Why?

 

Their size and shape, yes. If they were just normal size and they were more... melded into the rest of the design, then it wouldn't be so bad.

[HuldraDancer]

Their size and shape, yes. If they were just normal size and they were more... melded into the rest of the design, then it wouldn't be so bad.

 

Could you please explain what you mean by 'normal size' and melded? I personally haven't used the staff much myself so I don't really know what you mean by melded. As for the size comment I think I may understand what you are trying to get at but could yo please clarify  for me so I don't make wrong assumptions here.

[Fade-Touched-in-the-head]

Mine is relevant to the real world in that it affects the players negatively

As clearly evidenced by the vast horde of negatively affected players who feel as you do.

[Gothfather]

/snip

 

Even if it weren't Andraste, it's still a depiction of a nude woman with emphasized breasts. It's still inappropriate for an Inquisitor who is trying to gain dignity and respect among the people of Thedas.
 

/snip

 

You have provided zero evidence for this, nothing in the Lore of Thedas suggests that nudity is inappropriate and large breasts are often given to females associated with the divine as it is a symbol of fertility and femininity that is not sexualization. A simple GOOGLE search will show real world examples.

 

 

Cory stated that he would become a god going to the black city that is bioware speaking through Cory but that DOES NOT mean what he says is accurate or can be used as evidence that simply going to the black city makes you divine.

 

Morrigan has extremely limited contact with the chantry and is the WORSE possible main character to cite for evidence of what the Chantry actually believes and thinks on the subject. She has no experience growing up with in the chantry, she always was taught they were dangerous because of their connection to the Templars. She has only recently been part of the wider world. One should EXPECT her view of the Chantry to be wrong and clouded by ignorance and lack of first hand experience. Not be using her as the definitive proof of the Chantry's position on X.

 

Sexuality is not tied to morality in Thedas PERIOD. Nudity would Logically be viewed in a more accepting light as nudity can't lead to sexuality which leads to corruption and ruin. Simply because sexuality isn't viewed as a sin. Nudity is not sexualization ergo the idea that large breasts are problem has NOT been established with any evidence.

 

Provide evidence. You are making connections with no evidence. how is a naked staff head disrespectful? how are large breasts disrespectful? You are simply declaring that it is so. Make the step by step connections. Is there any Chantry character in the Lore that says nudity is an issue? Is there any chantry member in the Lore that claims large breasts are a problem?

 

You are MANUFACTURING an issue so you can revel is faux outrage.

[Fade-Touched-in-the-head]

Morrigan has extremely limited contact with the chantry and is the WORSE possible main character to cite for evidence of what the Chantry actually believes and thinks on the subject. She has no experience growing up with in the chantry, she always was taught they were dangerous because of their connection to the Templars. She has only recently been part of the wider world. One should EXPECT her view of the Chantry to be wrong and clouded by ignorance and lack of first hand experience. Not be using her as the definitive proof of the Chantry's position on X.

Ugh. As much as I'm in disagreement with Dai, you've gone and written something that compels me to defend him. At least on this point.

I know next to zilch about Christianity and the Bible. The sum totality of my knowledge on the subject would scarcely be enough to fill a paragraph.

Yet, despite my admitted ignorance in this regard, I certainly know enough to know how to conjure up a mental image that most devout Christians would find offensive.

Which brings me to Morrigan. It isn't required for us to believe her to be a Chantry expert in order to take what she says at face value. All we need to believe is that: 1) she's not an idiot and, 2) she knows how to draw a proper analogy.

So when everyone else shrugs their shoulders at the sight of that statue in the temple, Morrigan provides them with an analogy that she feels would effectively convey the implications of what they're seeing. Drawing an effective analogy only requires that you know your audience, and since nobody calls her out with anything resembling "Huh? What do you mean? What's wrong with painting Andraste naked?" then we can reasonably assume her analogy works.

I don't say any of this to lend credibility to DAI's point of view because ultimately whether or not the nudie staff is appropriate to Andraste is quite beside the point.

The point being that nobody really cares.

And I'm not picking up much "outrage" in the tone of his posts, but he does seem to be working under a delusion that his opinion is reflective of a larger, noteworthy group of "negatively affected" players that, near as I can tell, don't even exist. Even the OP is objecting on completely different grounds.

[SnakeCode]

Mine is relevant to the real world in that it affects the players negatively.

Yes, all three of you.

[SnakeCode]

Edit- wrong thread.

[SmilesJA]

I think that was confirmed in the thread when people referenced DA2.

 

Even if it weren't Andraste, it's still a depiction of a nude woman with emphasized breasts. It's still inappropriate for an Inquisitor who is trying to gain dignity and respect among the people of Thedas.
 

That is what I have my Inquisitor do. He uses different staffs. My complaint isn't that we're forced to use it, because we're not. My complaint is that if we wish to fit with the game's worldview in this matter, we are forced to have our Inquisitor not carry one of the top tier staffs.

 

I don't mind it being Andraste, or even her nude. The problem I have is how emphasized the breasts are. I think if the design showed something more basic and not as detailed and accentuated, or if the current design had a clothing design, then it would be acceptable.

 

Anita is that you?

[Battlebloodmage]

I wanna see an plus-size women on staffs, why are only thin women allow to be on staffs? That's discriminatory toward big women. 

[RINNZ]

Are there even nipples on the staff?

[RINNZ]

Jesus nailed to a cross, basically almost dead. Used as a decorative.

What I can only guess is Andraste, "naked" and unharmed. Used as whatever the thing is called, (a sword handle, right? Or was it something for a Mage?) in a fictional videogame.

[HuldraDancer]

Are there even nipples on the staff?

 

As far as I remember no. It's just a shape of a naked female form not real detail other than the shape.

[Grieving Natashina]

As far as I remember no. It's just a shape of a naked female form not real detail other than the shape.

I'm mostly out of this conversation, but I figured I'd find a picture of the staff top in question.  I couldn't find a screenshot of it from Inquisition, but this is how it was shown in DA2 (as Malcom's Honor.)   If you're wondering why the right picture looks slightly different, it's from a retexture mod.

 

Spoiler

[HuldraDancer]

I'm mostly out of this conversation, but I figured I'd find a picture of the staff top in question.  I couldn't find a screenshot of it from Inquisition, but this is how it was shown in DA2.   If you're wondering why the right picture looks slightly different, it's from a retexture mod.

 

Spoiler

 

Thanks for posting that up.

[Grieving Natashina]

Thanks for posting that up.

Sure thing.  

[Dai Grepher]

Could you please explain what you mean by 'normal size' and melded? I personally haven't used the staff much myself so I don't really know what you mean by melded. As for the size comment I think I may understand what you are trying to get at but could yo please clarify  for me so I don't make wrong assumptions here.

 

Right now, they are basically orbs that are big in relation to the rest of the design's body. The pictures posted above are from the DA2 version, not the DA:I version.

 

When I write smaller and melded, I mean that they should not be orbs. They should be bumps that rise slightly out of the design and lack any real definition to them.

 

Or the alternative is keep the design proportions as they are, but have a design over it that give her clothing. 
 

[Dai Grepher]

You have provided zero evidence for this, nothing in the Lore of Thedas suggests that nudity is inappropriate and large breasts are often given to females associated with the divine as it is a symbol of fertility and femininity that is not sexualization. A simple GOOGLE search will show real world examples.

 

 

Cory stated that he would become a god going to the black city that is bioware speaking through Cory but that DOES NOT mean what he says is accurate or can be used as evidence that simply going to the black city makes you divine.

 

Morrigan has extremely limited contact with the chantry and is the WORSE possible main character to cite for evidence of what the Chantry actually believes and thinks on the subject. She has no experience growing up with in the chantry, she always was taught they were dangerous because of their connection to the Templars. She has only recently been part of the wider world. One should EXPECT her view of the Chantry to be wrong and clouded by ignorance and lack of first hand experience. Not be using her as the definitive proof of the Chantry's position on X.

 

Sexuality is not tied to morality in Thedas PERIOD. Nudity would Logically be viewed in a more accepting light as nudity can't lead to sexuality which leads to corruption and ruin. Simply because sexuality isn't viewed as a sin. Nudity is not sexualization ergo the idea that large breasts are problem has NOT been established with any evidence.

 

Provide evidence. You are making connections with no evidence. how is a naked staff head disrespectful? how are large breasts disrespectful? You are simply declaring that it is so. Make the step by step connections. Is there any Chantry character in the Lore that says nudity is an issue? Is there any chantry member in the Lore that claims large breasts are a problem?

 

You are MANUFACTURING an issue so you can revel is faux outrage.

 

Real world examples have no relevance here, as people have told me numerous times thinking I was basing my opinion on my own worldview.

 

What Cory says is presented as his belief and his plan. What Morrigan says is presented as her estimation of Chantry protocol. That's the difference.

 

Morrigan does not need to be part of the Chantry to know what they believe and how they react to speech and expression that is against Andraste. This isn't about how well Morrigan knows the Chant of Light. It's about knowing how people see Andraste. Morrigan's assessment is of other people's perspective on the very subject we are discussing.

 

If sexuality is not tied to morality or nudity, then you can't say for certain that nudity would be seen as acceptable. Perhaps no one has moral objections to nudity, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't find it disrespectful or inappropriate in public settings.

 

Like I wrote before, I have plenty of evidence, but this isn't about proving me or anyone else right. This is about our opinions on the staff and how people in Thedas view it.

 

My only points are these. I think people in Thedas would find the depiction disrespectful to Andraste, and my pro-Chantry Inquisitor would not want to offend others or disrespect Andraste, who he also believes in. Thus, for me the player, I am forced to fit the game's worldview as I see it, at the cost of my Inquisitor not being able to use one of the best weapons in the game.

 

I'm not saying BioWare has to change anything, but those are just my thoughts on the matter.

 

If you really care about this and want my evidence, tell me so and I will post it.

 

 

[Dai Grepher]

Jesus nailed to a cross, basically almost dead. Used as a decorative.

What I can only guess is Andraste, "naked" and unharmed. Used as whatever the thing is called, (a sword handle, right? Or was it something for a Mage?) in a fictional videogame.

 

It is not used as decoration. It is used for illustration and remembrance of what Christ suffered for us.
 

The comparison doesn't work for Andraste because in all Chantry depiction of her death she is clothed, usually in white to illustrate purity.

[o Ventus]

It is not used as decoration. It is used for illustration and remembrance of what Christ suffered for us.
 

The comparison doesn't work for Andraste because in all Chantry depiction of her death she is clothed, usually in white to illustrate purity.

Holy mother of God, you would think that when you are the only person making a deal out of this, that maybe you're the only one seeing it as a problem. Ergo, you're inventing a problem just for the sake of complaining.

 

Literally nowhere in any piece of text or dialogue across any of the games, novels, or guidebooks, is it stated or even implied that nudity is at all bad in Thedas or in Chantry belief, or that a nude showing of Andraste is bad.

 

 

Who. Cares.

[Dai Grepher]

Fashionably late, and can't believe I'm replying to this... but here I go anyway...

 

First off; slavery.

 

What the hell does that have to do with this subject?

Clearly you're missing my point....

Oh, and you might wanna reconsider the "we don't practice that in the real world" because people actually do...

 

I wasn't talking about criminal activity. I was talking about sex and the naked form in general... and pointing out that in these two cases, people in Thedas aren't shaken or offended by such as people in the real world are. For instance, where homosexuality is concerned, nobody really gives two tosses.. well, you can "headcanon" it all you like, but during these games you won't hear anybody diss people for being attracted to the same sex.

 

If I understand correctly... you find the naked depiction on said staff inappropriate from a pro-chantry Inquisitor's perspective?

Well... if you really want to pick this apart, if that's the case, why is there no dialogue option where you can complain about how disrespectful and wrong it is?

 

Cause I daresay... pro-chantry or not, the inquisitor has more important things to worry about. Also, before we had "conservative" types, in the days of old, people worshipped naked "Gods". But this argument has been parrotted enough.. my point is, it's a matter of perspective; clearly, back in those days, people did not view a naked statue/God/whatever as something inappropriate or objectifying, and percieved it rather differently. Now, apply this same logic to Thedas.

 

Last, but not least... I'm pretty sure you're just a troll. Or just really bored... and picking any old argument to attempt to annoy people here. I honestly hope for your sake that you're not being serious about this, and some other posts you made on a certain locked thread.

 

Really loved what you did there, btw...

 

Indeed Cersei is rolling her eyes hard. She's been rolling them so hard since the birth of this thread it's a wonder they haven't flown out of her sockets and splattered somebody in the face.

 

Hmm. I wrote slavery, but maybe segregation would have been the better word. My point was that Thedas has slavery and thus is not as open minded as our world.

 

You think they aren't shaken or offended by nudity. I think they are.

 

Homosexuality is a different issue entirely. Let's just say we differ on that topic as well.

 

There's no dialogue option to complain because it is a weapon. BioWare did not program a storyline revolving around that weapon. There are a few weapons I would have liked to comment on through my Inquisitor, but that's just not part of the game.

 

Right. The Inquisitor has more important things to worry about, like finding someone's demonic goat.

 

Real world examples are irrelevant, but you should also note that those societies that worshiped nude gods, were and are seen as immoral and hedonistic.

 

You might be right that people in Thedas do not view nudity negatively, even when applied to their prophetess. But I don't think you are right about that. I think while some places like Tevinter, Antiva, or certain groups in Orlais would have no problem with it, most other people would.

 

I'm not a troll. I'm just posting my opinion. Trolls don't engage in discussions and keep supporting their positions. Trolls just make off the wall comments and then mock those who take the bait. Have I mocked anyone here who has disagreed with me? Have I been anything other than courteous? Also, what post are you referring to?