707 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

Holy mother of God, you would think that when you are the only person making a deal out of this, that maybe you're the only one seeing it as a problem. Ergo, you're inventing a problem just for the sake of complaining.

 

Literally nowhere in any piece of text or dialogue across any of the games, novels, or guidebooks, is it stated or even implied that nudity is at all bad in Thedas or in Chantry belief, or that a nude showing of Andraste is bad.

 

 

Who. Cares.

 

If it's a non-issue then why are you replying to it?

 

BTW, I almost picked "Vincent" for my mage Trevelyan. Went with "Jonathan" instead.

[Gaesesagai]

In 24 pages, someone with a similar point of view as myself surely posted. But I couldn't get through more then a few pages before being overwhelmed by the silliness of some arguments so I skipped.

What I personally find irritating (not offensive mind you) about the naked women on weapons and in almsot every damn decor available in game, is the fact that it is only women. I ended up for example always choosing the Free March decor at Skyhold for one simple reason. It's the only one that doesn't have statues of naked women all over the place. You starting to see the problem? Yes? No? For someone who appreciates the female form, I'm sure this is just peachy, unless they take a moment to think about it and realise it's still a bit of a dumb design choice (in the given circumstances). For someone who is indifferent to the female form, this is just irritating. Now, had they added in the game at least a decent ammount (not even equal, just decent) of options with depictions of male form (on weapons, decorum, etc), I would have been a happy camper and not bothered by the female ones since I would never see them, past the initial "test all to see what it looks like" phase. But those are all but missing entirely and that is unfortunate.

But that's not the case. What happens is similar (although just vaguely similar; DAI is far superior to SWTOR when this is concerned) to what they did in SWTOR with all the "you will swim in women yes? - i know you want women and boobs in your face yes? - no? aaa.. so you want to keep private what you do with ALL the women you bang yes? wink wink" (this is an aproximate quote from a dialogue with DOC, in which my (trying to rp him that way) gay jedi sentinel desperately tried to fence off him and the mandatory-forced female love interest (whom was always dangerously close to going into rape territory, but eh, what can you do, BW seems to have problems in that department - like with rewriting stuff for DAI since it came off as rape to various degrees).

So yeah, basically whoever designed the decors and weapons and other stuff, really, REALLY wants to see naked women. And that would be fantastic, IF they would remember that there are those who don't want to see naked women everywhere OR want to see naked men. It's as simple as that. It's representation.

Oh well, at the end of the day I'm buying BW stuff (as abismally flawed as they are in terms of programming, bugs, etc) because I really want to support one of the only major companies out there who seems to be willing to acknowledge gay people exist (GASP!)! I do get frustrated though when stupid stuff creeps it's way in though, like this instance (or genius* statements like "we always imagined shepard as str8" or "there are no gay people in the star wars universe", etc, etc) or when they display a bizarre lack or respect or consideration for their clients (patch 2 fkng up the graphics... really? at this level of business you release a product of that quality*?). And occasionally I do comment on it, and sometimes I even lose it and go on rants, but it's completely irrelevant. They keep making products I like and want to support, and I'll overlook the occasional or abundant irritating little nonsense they add in it.

 

PS: As for people finding the presence of naked women on weapons, armors, decor, spoons, etc, "offensive", that is... I want to say stupid, but I don't want to be offensive myself so I'll just say it's nonsensical.

[o Ventus]

If it's a non-issue then why are you replying to it?

 

 

Because I'm allowed to express my opinion, as everyone else has in here?

[Dai Grepher]

Because I'm allowed to express my opinion, as everyone else has in here?

 

So then you do care about the issue enough to comment on it.

[Fade-Touched-in-the-head]

I think the nude design of that particular staff is inappropriate for the Inquisitor. It should have been classy, like a clothed Andraste similar to the design on the templar helmet on the cover of Asunder. Or at least a design where the breasts aren't so obvious and overdone.

I don't mind it being Andraste, or even her nude. The problem I have is how emphasized the breasts are.

If they were just normal size and they were more... melded into the rest of the design, then it wouldn't be so bad.

You do understand the implications of what you're saying, don't you? You're arguing that only women of specific proportions are suitable for what can be considered tasteful artwork. Sorry, large-breasted women. Your breasts are just too "emphasized." They are not "normal-sized" and thus can only be viewed as over-sexualized. You can never be a work of art like a painting or a statue but hey, I'd sure love to motorboat those puppies!

And for all anyone knows, Andraste may have been generously endowed. But in the absence of knowing for certain, we must by default conform to what Dai Grepher regards to be "acceptable" proportions.

So, what about the hips? Are they the right size for you, Dai?

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

There was a nice long stretch where this was a fun thread.

 

 

I'm trying to remember the last time I saw someone who was offended by something actually approach the subject rationally, and it's really hard to remember. I'm sure there are examples, but there's something that seems to happen when the human brain greets a subject that it finds offensive. It seems to lose most of its ability to see past a narrow, limited view, and the ability to rationally engage along with it.

 

I do get offended by things, at times, although usually it is human behaviour, like hostility, arrogance, etc., and when it happens, I don't tend to do the best job of criticizing it rationally. But when something in a video game bothers me, I can't remember ever feeling the need to rush to the forums and declare how wrong it is for the world to see.

 

I was really bothered by Morrigan's behaviour and personality as part of "The Game" in Orlais... but I don't think I was outright offended by it. I didn't make a thread about how wrong it was, and demand they patch it or change it (although I certainly expressed how upset I was privately to people.)

 

I guess I just don't understand being offended by something that deeply.

 

Except maybe the Collectors in ME 3 MP. I've raged a lot about those guys. But that's totally fair, because **** 'em.

[SotiCoto]

What about all those naked Dragons? 
I mean really. Why are there naked Dragons all over everything? 
Heck, those High Dragons I fought were TOTALLY NUDE. It is completely inappropriate.

[Saphiron123]

Why don't we just agree that no artistic expression ever is okay? No nudity. No violence. No prejudice. Since literally everything offends someone, there can't be anything.

The next dragon age can be a multiracial team teaching the darkspawn the meaning of love and acceptance in a sunny valley filled with daffodils. Elves can be given reparations from the humans, and the qunari can apologize for waging war on people who don't follow the qun, and accept all religions as equals.

And there will never be war again.

Seriously, it's nudity. Did you take a shower today? Because you were nude. Under your clothes you're nude now. This is not a 1950s protestant church, and there's nothing offensive about the human body.

 

If bioware wants to put one of those peeing statues on the end of a halberd, cool, whatever, there's it's balanced and we can all go home.

Maybe they shouldn't make anymore games, since someone somewhere will definitely be offended, and maybe it's best to just skip all that.

[Saphiron123]

I think that was confirmed in the thread when people referenced DA2.

 

Even if it weren't Andraste, it's still a depiction of a nude woman with emphasized breasts. It's still inappropriate for an Inquisitor who is trying to gain dignity and respect among the people of Thedas.
 

That is what I have my Inquisitor do. He uses different staffs. My complaint isn't that we're forced to use it, because we're not. My complaint is that if we wish to fit with the game's worldview in this matter, we are forced to have our Inquisitor not carry one of the top tier staffs.

 

I don't mind it being Andraste, or even her nude. The problem I have is how emphasized the breasts are. I think if the design showed something more basic and not as detailed and accentuated, or if the current design had a clothing design, then it would be acceptable.

You do know that like 90% of the greatest historical artwork from the last 10,000 years of human history depicts the naked human form right?

Just throwing that out there.

Maybe you were raised religious, maybe nudity isn't for you, but you know what? It's not hurting anything. If it was a sculpture of a two people having frisky angry sex then sure, you'd have a point, but I'm willing to bet that everyone you know is nude at some point every single day.

It's just life. And it shouldn't be deemed offensive, because it's just biology, and you know what? Nudity is fairly awesome. God knows life has few enough wonderful things in it to appreciate, you have to find beauty where you can.

This isn't crass, it isn't gross, I don't see the issue.

[SotiCoto]

Why don't we just agree that no artistic expression ever is okay? No nudity. No violence. No prejudice. Since literally everything offends someone, there can't be anything.

The next dragon age can be a multiracial team teaching the darkspawn the meaning of love and acceptance in a sunny valley filled with daffodils. Elves can be given reparations from the humans, and the qunari can apologize for waging war on people who don't follow the qun, and accept all religions as equals.

And there will never be war again.

... NUDE daffodils?  *Gasp*

[Gothfather]

Real world examples have no relevance here, as people have told me numerous times thinking I was basing my opinion on my own worldview.

 

What Cory says is presented as his belief and his plan. What Morrigan says is presented as her estimation of Chantry protocol. That's the difference.

 

Morrigan does not need to be part of the Chantry to know what they believe and how they react to speech and expression that is against Andraste. This isn't about how well Morrigan knows the Chant of Light. It's about knowing how people see Andraste. Morrigan's assessment is of other people's perspective on the very subject we are discussing.

 

If sexuality is not tied to morality or nudity, then you can't say for certain that nudity would be seen as acceptable. Perhaps no one has moral objections to nudity, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't find it disrespectful or inappropriate in public settings.

 

Like I wrote before, I have plenty of evidence, but this isn't about proving me or anyone else right. This is about our opinions on the staff and how people in Thedas view it.

 

My only points are these. I think people in Thedas would find the depiction disrespectful to Andraste, and my pro-Chantry Inquisitor would not want to offend others or disrespect Andraste, who he also believes in. Thus, for me the player, I am forced to fit the game's worldview as I see it, at the cost of my Inquisitor not being able to use one of the best weapons in the game.

 

I'm not saying BioWare has to change anything, but those are just my thoughts on the matter.

 

If you really care about this and want my evidence, tell me so and I will post it.

 

You have "plenty of evidence but this isn't about proving me or anyone else right. This is about our opinions on the staff and how people in Thedas view it."

 

You have a premiss that a naked staff head is offensive, you have provided ZERO Evidence, to show why the people of Thedas would be offended. Because you have provided zero evidence people have LOGICALLY concluded that you are just upset because YOU have a problem with nudity. You claim its not that that its because it is disrespectful to show a religious figure nude. yet There are countless Christian and non Christian religions that show nudity with regards to religious figures and the Divine. So WHY would the People of Thedas be upset. Again you claim to have lots of evidence but you don't provide any. You claim that real world examples have no place but they in fact provide precedent for fictional religions. They allow us the users of media to have a frame of reference to the fictional religion. So yes they have a place as a frame of reference.

 

Sexuality is not tied to morality in Thedas. Nudity isn't tied to shame which it is in Christianity as the story of adam and Eve is traditionally & biblically told with them being naked before their sin and feeling shame after they ate from the tree of knowledge. So the Shame of nudity had deep seeded cultural origins tied to sin that DON'T exist in Thedas mythology. Therefore it is on YOU to show why your theory is correct.

 

I have already provided evidence that blows your theory out of the water.

 

Morrigan has very little contact with the Chantry, she did not grow up exposed to Chantry teachings and morality. how would she know what is blasphemous? I have no idea what is blasphemous to a follower of Zoroastrianism but I know some of their teaching because i met someone who was a follower of this religion. I can ASSUME many things about what would be blasphemous but any analogy I make on that assumption has not guarantee of being correct. There is no evidence presented in the game the nudity is a problem for the chantry except a one off comment from someone who hates the chantry so has a vested interest in making the chantry look ridicules and who only RECENTLY started to have contact with the chantry. Someone who has to keep their distance from the Chantry because they are an apostate any only until VERY recently has always live on the outside culturally. This means of all the characters in the DA universe Morrigan has the least contact with Chantry teachings, chantry moral beliefs and is the most likely to make erroneous assumptions about what they do and don't believe. The Dalish Inquisitor has had more contact with Chantry followers than Morrigan.  Do people recall what one of the Warden recruits said about the Witch of the wilds when Morrigan arrived? He made statements that he believed to be true based on the exposure he had about the witch of the wilds. He was WRONG. Yet we are to think that everything Morrigan says about the Chantry is 100% accurate?  It is more reasonable to believe that both sides believe things about the other that are false. This requires that we NOT take what Morrigan says at face value. Her areas of expertise do not include the Chantry and here Bias against the Chantry is well established. Now if we had collaborating evidence to support her statements then yes you point to this but there is no other evidence.

 

Well our esteemed OP claims to have the evidence but refuses to provide it because apparently evidence has no place in the discussion. I am guessing this is because evidence would shatter the entire premiss of this thread. So lets not bring in pesky evidence it will only cause one side to be shown to be rooted in facts and the other to be just the manufactured whinging of a troll.

[Fade-Touched-in-the-head]

@Gothfather - For the love of... stop fencing with Dai over Andraste and the Chantry and the lore, et al. You're wasting words and he doesn't care.

THIS is his issue

I don't mind it being Andraste, or even her nude. The problem I have is how emphasized the breasts are.

It's breast size. That's what this is all about for him.

He's okay that it's Andraste.

He's okay that she's nude.

He just thinks her t!ts are too big. In other words, he can only accept nude renderings if they conform to HIS standard of "normal." Yet he's presented his case as though his standard is an objective standard that "players" (plural) adhere to. Even in light of the fact that he's the only person in this thread objecting to the staff on these particular grounds.

Its attitudes such as his that, in part, contribute to unhealthy obsession with body image. Women need to look a certain way. They need to have certain dimensions. If their boobs are "normal" sized then that's okay where art is concerned. Yes, Ms. B-Cup. You get to be a statue.

But if they're "too big" then no. No, you don't get to be a statue, Lady Double-D. Your boobs are way too emphasized and I'm afraid we have no openings for you in the tasteful art department. Try the porn industry instead.

[Angry_Elcor]

If only women with large breasts understood how offensive they are. I wonder what enlightened solution there could be to resolve having all those offensive women in the world...

[BronzTrooper]

@Gothfather - For the love of... stop fencing with Dai over Andraste and the Chantry and the lore, et al. You're wasting words and he doesn't care.

THIS is his issue


It's breast size. That's what this is all about for him.

He's okay that it's Andraste.

He's okay that she's nude.

He just thinks her t!ts are too big. In other words, he can only accept nude renderings if they conform to HIS standard of "normal." Yet he's presented his case as though his standard is an objective standard that "players" (plural) adhere to. Even in light of the fact that he's the only person in this thread objecting to the staff on these particular grounds.

Its attitudes such as his that, in part, contribute to unhealthy obsession with body image. Women need to look a certain way. They need to have certain dimensions. If their boobs are "normal" sized then that's okay where art is concerned. Yes, Ms. B-Cup. You get to be a statue.

But if they're "too big" then no. No, you don't get to be a statue, Lady Double-D. Your boobs are way too emphasized and I'm afraid we have no openings for you in the tasteful art department. Try the porn industry instead.

 

I do have to wonder if the same applies to men...

[AiCola]

In 24 pages, someone with a similar point of view as myself surely posted. But I couldn't get through more then a few pages before being overwhelmed by the silliness of some arguments so I skipped.

What I personally find irritating (not offensive mind you) about the naked women on weapons and in almsot every damn decor available in game, is the fact that it is only women. I ended up for example always choosing the Free March decor at Skyhold for one simple reason. It's the only one that doesn't have statues of naked women all over the place. You starting to see the problem? Yes? No? For someone who appreciates the female form, I'm sure this is just peachy, unless they take a moment to think about it and realise it's still a bit of a dumb design choice (in the given circumstances). For someone who is indifferent to the female form, this is just irritating. Now, had they added in the game at least a decent ammount (not even equal, just decent) of options with depictions of male form (on weapons, decorum, etc), I would have been a happy camper and not bothered by the female ones since I would never see them, past the initial "test all to see what it looks like" phase. But those are all but missing entirely and that is unfortunate.

But that's not the case. What happens is similar (although just vaguely similar; DAI is far superior to SWTOR when this is concerned) to what they did in SWTOR with all the "you will swim in women yes? - i know you want women and boobs in your face yes? - no? aaa.. so you want to keep private what you do with ALL the women you bang yes? wink wink" (this is an aproximate quote from a dialogue with DOC, in which my (trying to rp him that way) gay jedi sentinel desperately tried to fence off him and the mandatory-forced female love interest (whom was always dangerously close to going into rape territory, but eh, what can you do, BW seems to have problems in that department - like with rewriting stuff for DAI since it came off as rape to various degrees).

So yeah, basically whoever designed the decors and weapons and other stuff, really, REALLY wants to see naked women. And that would be fantastic, IF they would remember that there are those who don't want to see naked women everywhere OR want to see naked men. It's as simple as that. It's representation.

Oh well, at the end of the day I'm buying BW stuff (as abismally flawed as they are in terms of programming, bugs, etc) because I really want to support one of the only major companies out there who seems to be willing to acknowledge gay people exist (GASP!)! I do get frustrated though when stupid stuff creeps it's way in though, like this instance (or genius* statements like "we always imagined shepard as str8" or "there are no gay people in the star wars universe", etc, etc) or when they display a bizarre lack or respect or consideration for their clients (patch 2 fkng up the graphics... really? at this level of business you release a product of that quality*?). And occasionally I do comment on it, and sometimes I even lose it and go on rants, but it's completely irrelevant. They keep making products I like and want to support, and I'll overlook the occasional or abundant irritating little nonsense they add in it.

 

PS: As for people finding the presence of naked women on weapons, armors, decor, spoons, etc, "offensive", that is... I want to say stupid, but I don't want to be offensive myself so I'll just say it's nonsensical.

people like you irritate me.

Bioware pictures shepard as straight, so what?
THEY invented the character, THEY made the games.

Would you be offended if they said they pictured him as gay?
Because you'd have to be.

Either way is really stupid, they are artists, they decide what they want to create.

 

Same goes for naked women or statues of women that look somewhat naked.

I'm glad we both atleast agree on that.

if it offends people then stop playing the game, seriously.

[HuldraDancer]

If only women with large breasts understood how offensive they are. I wonder what enlightened solution there could be to resolve having all those offensive women in the world...

 

Oh goodness I guess I should go out and start apologizing to all those people I offended. Maybe I just shouldn't leave my house anymore that might stop my chest from offending so many.

[Angry_Elcor]

Oh goodness I guess I should go out and start apologizing to all those people I offended. Maybe I just shouldn't leave my house anymore that might stop my chest from offending so many.

 

[HuldraDancer]

This made me snort my coffee through my nose. It stings.

 

Oh no even over the internet I'm still causing grief! I'll just stay in a corner until I stop becoming so offensive

[Dai Grepher]

You do understand the implications of what you're saying, don't you? You're arguing that only women of specific proportions are suitable for what can be considered tasteful artwork. Sorry, large-breasted women. Your breasts are just too "emphasized." They are not "normal-sized" and thus can only be viewed as over-sexualized. You can never be a work of art like a painting or a statue but hey, I'd sure love to motorboat those puppies!

And for all anyone knows, Andraste may have been generously endowed. But in the absence of knowing for certain, we must by default conform to what Dai Grepher regards to be "acceptable" proportions.

So, what about the hips? Are they the right size for you, Dai?

 

That's not what I'm saying. This isn't about actual women, this is about a sculpture, an idea. I'm just saying their size draws too much attention and distracts from the "artwork".

 

If people don't know her actual breast size, then making them large with no factual basis would be sexualizing her, wouldn't it?
 

[Dai Grepher]

There was a nice long stretch where this was a fun thread.

 

I'm trying to remember the last time I saw someone who was offended by something actually approach the subject rationally, and it's really hard to remember. I'm sure there are examples, but there's something that seems to happen when the human brain greets a subject that it finds offensive. It seems to lose most of its ability to see past a narrow, limited view, and the ability to rationally engage along with it.

 

I do get offended by things, at times, although usually it is human behaviour, like hostility, arrogance, etc., and when it happens, I don't tend to do the best job of criticizing it rationally. But when something in a video game bothers me, I can't remember ever feeling the need to rush to the forums and declare how wrong it is for the world to see.

 

I was really bothered by Morrigan's behaviour and personality as part of "The Game" in Orlais... but I don't think I was outright offended by it. I didn't make a thread about how wrong it was, and demand they patch it or change it (although I certainly expressed how upset I was privately to people.)

 

I guess I just don't understand being offended by something that deeply.

 

Except maybe the Collectors in ME 3 MP. I've raged a lot about those guys. But that's totally fair, because **** 'em.

 

Except for the fact that I'm not offended by the design.

 

Just pointing out how it creates a gameplay problem.

[Dai Grepher]

You do know that like 90% of the greatest historical artwork from the last 10,000 years of human history depicts the naked human form right?

Just throwing that out there.

Maybe you were raised religious, maybe nudity isn't for you, but you know what? It's not hurting anything. If it was a sculpture of a two people having frisky angry sex then sure, you'd have a point, but I'm willing to bet that everyone you know is nude at some point every single day.

It's just life. And it shouldn't be deemed offensive, because it's just biology, and you know what? Nudity is fairly awesome. God knows life has few enough wonderful things in it to appreciate, you have to find beauty where you can.

This isn't crass, it isn't gross, I don't see the issue.

 

Irrelevant.

 

This isn't about my views on nudity. It's about how the people of Thedas view it.

 

If your post was directed at the OP, then I apologize.

[Fade-Touched-in-the-head]

The problem I have is how emphasized the breasts are.

This isn't about my views on nudity.

[actionhero112]

That's not what I'm saying. This isn't about actual women, this is about a sculpture, an idea. I'm just saying their size draws too much attention and distracts from the "artwork".

 

If people don't know her actual breast size, then making them large with no factual basis would be sexualizing her, wouldn't it?
 

Considering we have no idea what thedas considers sexy, no. 

Because Andrastians have chosen this image to be an accurate representation of Andraste's sacrifice and power, it's not sexualization. It's purpose is not to arouse. You are contextualizing the staff in the terms of reality, which it is not based in.