707 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

You have "plenty of evidence but this isn't about proving me or anyone else right. This is about our opinions on the staff and how people in Thedas view it."

 

You have a premiss that a naked staff head is offensive, you have provided ZERO Evidence, to show why the people of Thedas would be offended. Because you have provided zero evidence people have LOGICALLY concluded that you are just upset because YOU have a problem with nudity. You claim its not that that its because it is disrespectful to show a religious figure nude. yet There are countless Christian and non Christian religions that show nudity with regards to religious figures and the Divine. So WHY would the People of Thedas be upset. Again you claim to have lots of evidence but you don't provide any. You claim that real world examples have no place but they in fact provide precedent for fictional religions. They allow us the users of media to have a frame of reference to the fictional religion. So yes they have a place as a frame of reference.

 

Sexuality is not tied to morality in Thedas. Nudity isn't tied to shame which it is in Christianity as the story of adam and Eve is traditionally & biblically told with them being naked before their sin and feeling shame after they ate from the tree of knowledge. So the Shame of nudity had deep seeded cultural origins tied to sin that DON'T exist in Thedas mythology. Therefore it is on YOU to show why your theory is correct.

 

I have already provided evidence that blows your theory out of the water.

 

Morrigan has very little contact with the Chantry, she did not grow up exposed to Chantry teachings and morality. how would she know what is blasphemous? I have no idea what is blasphemous to a follower of Zoroastrianism but I know some of their teaching because i met someone who was a follower of this religion. I can ASSUME many things about what would be blasphemous but any analogy I make on that assumption has not guarantee of being correct. There is no evidence presented in the game the nudity is a problem for the chantry except a one off comment from someone who hates the chantry so has a vested interest in making the chantry look ridicules and who only RECENTLY started to have contact with the chantry. Someone who has to keep their distance from the Chantry because they are an apostate any only until VERY recently has always live on the outside culturally. This means of all the characters in the DA universe Morrigan has the least contact with Chantry teachings, chantry moral beliefs and is the most likely to make erroneous assumptions about what they do and don't believe. The Dalish Inquisitor has had more contact with Chantry followers than Morrigan.  Do people recall what one of the Warden recruits said about the Witch of the wilds when Morrigan arrived? He made statements that he believed to be true based on the exposure he had about the witch of the wilds. He was WRONG. Yet we are to think that everything Morrigan says about the Chantry is 100% accurate?  It is more reasonable to believe that both sides believe things about the other that are false. This requires that we NOT take what Morrigan says at face value. Her areas of expertise do not include the Chantry and here Bias against the Chantry is well established. Now if we had collaborating evidence to support her statements then yes you point to this but there is no other evidence.

 

Well our esteemed OP claims to have the evidence but refuses to provide it because apparently evidence has no place in the discussion. I am guessing this is because evidence would shatter the entire premiss of this thread. So lets not bring in pesky evidence it will only cause one side to be shown to be rooted in facts and the other to be just the manufactured whinging of a troll.

 

Again, I have evidence, but I don't need it. This thread is about our opinions. It isn't about who's right or wrong.

 

If you don't think people in Thedas would be offended by it, then fine. That's your opinion. I have a different opinion.

 

People here have reached a wrong conclusion about me because they refuse to understand my point.

 

It has no relevance because how people in the real world view it has nothing to do with the cultures of Dragon Age.

 

I don't need to show that my theory is correct. It's my opinion. You are free to disagree with it. And let's say you have "blown my theory out of the water". So what? My opinion is unchanged.

 

She would know because she has eyes, ears, and a mind. She can hear others talking, see what they are talking about, and formulate opinions of her own on all subjects involved.

 

So you have no idea what is blasphemous to someone else. What does that have to do with Morrigan?

 

You are making baseless assumptions about Morrigan's motives in order to dismiss her opinion and thus justify your own position.

 

Evidence doesn't have a place in the discussion, which is about our opinions. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just stating my opinion about how people in Thedas would view the staff, and why my Inquisitor would not want to carry it around with him.

 

I figured you didn't really care about the evidence, which is why I asked. In that case I won't post any.

[Dai Grepher]

@Gothfather - For the love of... stop fencing with Dai over Andraste and the Chantry and the lore, et al. You're wasting words and he doesn't care.

THIS is his issue


It's breast size. That's what this is all about for him.

He's okay that it's Andraste.

He's okay that she's nude.

He just thinks her t!ts are too big. In other words, he can only accept nude renderings if they conform to HIS standard of "normal." Yet he's presented his case as though his standard is an objective standard that "players" (plural) adhere to. Even in light of the fact that he's the only person in this thread objecting to the staff on these particular grounds.

Its attitudes such as his that, in part, contribute to unhealthy obsession with body image. Women need to look a certain way. They need to have certain dimensions. If their boobs are "normal" sized then that's okay where art is concerned. Yes, Ms. B-Cup. You get to be a statue.

But if they're "too big" then no. No, you don't get to be a statue, Lady Double-D. Your boobs are way too emphasized and I'm afraid we have no openings for you in the tasteful art department. Try the porn industry instead.

 

This isn't about what I accept, it's about what people in Thedas accept.
 

I presented no such thing. You misunderstand my position.

 

My critique of a staff design has nothing to do with real women or their self-perceptions.

[Dai Grepher]

Eh?

 

Segregation occurs in this world too... so not sure what your point is, there.

 

Alright, so let's agree to disagree then... because, quite frankly, I can't even comprehend the importance of this so-called "issue" or understand your point. And I am quite good at understanding differing perspectives..

 

Overall, this thread is ridiculous and has been ridiculous since the date of its birth. While it was hilarious for a good stretch there.. now it's just descended into idiocy. I really don't get how this subject warrants long paragraphs of discussion. But that's just me.

 

Lastly, I apologise for that statement. I mixed you up with somebody who stated that Cass raped them, so after I looked again, I realised it wasn't you. I am sorry for that false accusation.

 

Ciao people... enjoy.

 

Point is that Thedas is not more open-minded than our world. Not that any of this matters regarding how people in Thedas would view the staff.

 

The issue is about why certain players dislike this particular staff design. My reason is that I think it goes against game lore for my pro-Chantry Inquisitor. If I play as an Inquisitor who doesn't care about the Chantry or what people think, then the design will not be an issue for that playthrough.

 

It doesn't warrant long paragraphs, but others here simply refuse to understand my position, and so they post tons of irrelevant and trivial points against me for no reason, which compels me to replay and try to set the record straight.

 

No problem.

[SnakeCode]

Here's the thing, if you think the people in Thedas would be offended by the staff that's fine, but you can't tell others that this is the case without proof. Why don't any Thedosians get offended by this in game? Gameplay/lore segregation? Then you would need to show something in the lore that suggests that the people of Thedas would be offended by such a thing. Focus on your argument and stick to it, none of this flitting between "people of Thedas would find this offensive/my problem is the breasts are too large and emphasized" tosh.

[Grieving Natashina]

Here's the thing, if you think the people in Thedas would be offended by the staff that's fine, but you can't tell others that this is the case without proof. Why don't any Thedosians get offended by this in game? Gameplay/lore segregation? Then you would need to show something in the lore that suggests that the people of Thedas would be offended by such a thing. Focus on your argument and stick to it, none of this flitting between " people of Thedas would find this offensive/my problem is the breasts are too large and emphasized" tosh.

Oh come on!  What would a pointless and silly debate be without shifting goal posts more often than Megadeth rotates through members?

[Fade-Touched-in-the-head]

Again, I have evidence, but I don't need it.

Yes, you do. Present it already.

Your entire argument hinges on your thus far unsubstantiated opinion that the people of Thedas would find the staff to be inappropriate. You repeatedly claim to have evidence along these lines but you refuse to present it because, according to you "evidence is irrelevant" which traditionally means "I don't have any."

I'm calling you on your bull. Present your evidence keeping in mind that you yourself said it was the boob size that was the issue, not the nudity of Andraste in and of itself.

[Grieving Natashina]

Yes, you do. Present it already.

Your entire argument hinges on your thus far unsubstantiated opinion that the people of Thedas would find the staff to be inappropriate. You repeatedly claim to have evidence along these lines but you refuse to present it because, according to you "evidence is irrelevant" which traditionally means "I don't have any."

I'm calling you on your bull. Present your evidence.

I asked him pages ago  I own two of the books, all of the comics and World of Thedas.  I really want to see his proof.  If he's right, I can look it up and verify it for myself.  Honestly, I'd be happy to do so.  I'll list the page number or the online link to his claims, if there is anything other than Morrigan's lone comment.   I'm a lore nerd, so I'd be glad to admit if I'm wrong.   

 

I don't think I am, as I don't think a person can try to hide a lack of evidence by trying to claim evidence doesn't matter.

[SnakeCode]

So, are we going to get that proof or has Dai abandoned thread the minute people asked so see this "evidence"?

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

So, are we going to get that proof or has Dai abandoned thread the minute people asked so see this "evidence"?

 

[Perpetual Nirvana]

She conveniently gets captured every game almost..
 
Huhmmm...

Yeah, Peach is insane. Seriously.

[Fade-Touched-in-the-head]

So, are we going to get that proof or has Dai abandoned thread the minute people asked so see this "evidence"?

He painted himself into too small of a box. Had he gone with "I personally feel the breasts are rendered too large" or "I think Thedasians would find Andraste rendered nude to be blasphemous" he'd have been okay. The former is just personal opinion and the latter has at least some canonical evidence to support it.

But "Thedasians would have a problem with Andraste rendered nude if the artist put that much emphasis on her breasts" is a pretty specific claim.

I haven't devoured all things Dragon Age, but you'd think a lore enthusiast like Natashina or someone else would remember reading/hearing something anywhere in the established canon that would corroborate that. I mean, I think I'd remember someone saying anything along those lines.

Perhaps it's some obscure codex entry. "101 ways to sculpt Andraste in the nude without offending anyone."

[Saphiron123]

Yes, you do. Present it already.

Your entire argument hinges on your thus far unsubstantiated opinion that the people of Thedas would find the staff to be inappropriate. You repeatedly claim to have evidence along these lines but you refuse to present it because, according to you "evidence is irrelevant" which traditionally means "I don't have any."

I'm calling you on your bull. Present your evidence keeping in mind that you yourself said it was the boob size that was the issue, not the nudity of Andraste in and of itself.

If the people of thedas would find the staff inappropriate, the staff would not exist. As it does, someone doesn't find it inappropriate.

And thedas is a big place, lots of cultures. Zevran lives in thedas, and he's totally down with nudity.

I rest my case. Zevran for mayor.

[Dai Grepher]

Here's the thing, if you think the people in Thedas would be offended by the staff that's fine, but you can't tell others that this is the case without proof. Why don't any Thedosians get offended by this in game? Gameplay/lore segregation? Then you would need to show something in the lore that suggests that the people of Thedas would be offended by such a thing. Focus on your argument and stick to it, none of this flitting between "people of Thedas would find this offensive/my problem is the breasts are too large and emphasized" tosh.

 

I'm not telling other that is the case. I'm telling others what I think.

[Dai Grepher]

Yes, you do. Present it already.

Your entire argument hinges on your thus far unsubstantiated opinion that the people of Thedas would find the staff to be inappropriate. You repeatedly claim to have evidence along these lines but you refuse to present it because, according to you "evidence is irrelevant" which traditionally means "I don't have any."

I'm calling you on your bull. Present your evidence keeping in mind that you yourself said it was the boob size that was the issue, not the nudity of Andraste in and of itself.

 

I don't, but I will, since you requested it.

 

My argument hinges on nothing. I was only giving my personal opinion up to this point. I will post evidence next. Evidence did not matter until this point because this topic has been about our opinions only.
 

[Dai Grepher]

He painted himself into too small of a box. Had he gone with "I personally feel the breasts are rendered too large" or "I think Thedasians would find Andraste rendered nude to be blasphemous" he'd have been okay. The former is just personal opinion and the latter has at least some canonical evidence to support it.

 

That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time.

[SnakeCode]

That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time.

So how about that evidence then?

[dreamgazer]

Exposed skin distracts and disarms opponents. Hence, "realism".

(whistles)

[BronzTrooper]

Exposed skin distracts and disarms opponents. Hence, "realism".

(whistles)

 

So they drop their sword and grab their 'sword'?  

[Fade-Touched-in-the-head]

I will post evidence next.

Next... when? Next week? Next year? Are you consulting with a lawyer? Since when does citing a reference require time? There isn't that much DA material out there.

Evidence did not matter until this point because this topic has been about our opinions only.

Oh, for heaven's sake, again with this?

"I think zucchini is disgusting" is an opinion.

"James Bond had a sister" is not an opinion. It's a claim. If I were to actually say this, I'd need to be able to back that up by pointing to any Bond film or novel that would support this. My saying "It's merely my opinion James Bond had a sister" is utterly meaningless, not to mention stupid.

Despite whatever it is you think you're doing, you're not delivering an opinion. You're making a claim. A canonical claim. You've claimed that a "naked-Andraste-on-a-stick-with-big-boobs" would be frowned upon by Thedasians. According to you, "the facts support it."

Stop skirting around the issue and either deliver your evidence or else admit that you don't have any.

[dreamgazer]

So they drop their sword and grab their 'sword'?  

Ah, see, they're dead before they get the chance.

[BronzTrooper]

Ah, see, they're dead before they get the chance.

 

Ah, so they drop their sword and attempt to grab their 'sword'.  That makes a lot more sense.  

[Dai Grepher]

Okay, here is some evidence.

 

Codex Entry: Andraste in Nude Repose - Invisible. The sculpture is called obscene, and it says the Chantry was alarmed by it. They did not want Andraste to have such base appeal, so much so that they had mages make the sculpture invisible.

 

Another example is in Awakening when Anders whistles at the Andraste statue and comments on her looks. One option is for the Hero to say "Don't say such things!".

 

In DA:I, Cassandra and Sera have some banter where Sera says they put Justinia V on plates in Val Royeaux. Cassandra takes issue with this, and later calls it an unorthodox display of faith. These are just decorative plates, mind you, to be kept in holders and placed on walls and shelves. You don't eat off them, as Sera thinks. Cass takes issue with this, even though it's just a depiction of the Divine. So depicting Andraste at all on a mage staff should be a bigger issue for Cassandra, and especially if the staff is Tevinter and the depiction is of Andraste nude with huge boobs.

 

On that note, the gift to Wynne (The Search for the True Prophet) was a book about Andraste possibly being a mage, and not the Maker's chosen. The book was saved from a fire at one point. This indicates people have a problem with Andraste being depicted in ways that do not revere her memory.

 

Same case with the rumors about her having an affair with Shartan.

 

Another banter with Cassandra and Sera has Sera finishing a joke. Cassandra says it is somewhat blasphemous. Again, this is a little thing, a joke, and yet Cass considers it somewhat blasphemous. Now apply this perspective to a nude design of Andraste on a staff. And if you think nudity is somehow less than a dirty joke in Thedas, I point to the Wicked Grace party where Cassandra states that she's leaving because she doesn't want to witness Cullen's walk of shame back to the barracks. The Vint does though, because he's from the same place that made the staff design.

 

All official Chantry artworks depict Andraste as clothed. Some depictions show her with small breasts (under clothing of course).

 

The Guardian chastised Leliana and asked if she thought herself Andraste's equal simply for believing the Maker spoke to her through symbolism. So what offense would the Guardian see in someone making a design of her in the nude? No artist is Andraste's equal, and therefore none are worthy to craft her in ways equal to themselves. Only depictions that venerate Andraste would be acceptable.

 

In general, people in Ferelden exalt Andraste and treat her memory with respect. Nudity is not something people just shrug off like it's no big deal. Cullen's story at the party about the recruit confirms this. There are other examples of references to nudity and it's connection to sex, like how Sera wonders what Blackwall looks like underneath all that armor, not "like that" thought. If nudity was no big deal, she wouldn't have needed to add that disclaimer.

 

So for these reasons, and others I may not recall at the moment, I believe that most people in Thedas have a strong sense of modesty and because of this would not appreciate Andraste being depicted as nude.

[Fade-Touched-in-the-head]

So for these reasons, and others I may not recall at the moment, I believe that most people in Thedas have a strong sense of modesty and because of this would not appreciate Andraste being depicted as nude.

You know, it would be immensely helpful if you could manage to decide on precisely what it is you're arguing...

I don't mind it being Andraste, or even her nude. The problem I have is how emphasized the breasts are.

[BronzTrooper]

Codex Entry: Andraste in Nude Repose - Invisible. The sculpture is called obscene, and it says the Chantry was alarmed by it. They did not want Andraste to have such base appeal, so much so that they had mages make the sculpture invisible.

 

I could've sworn that had more to do with the amount of detail that was put into the statue, rather than the fact that she was nude in the first place.

 

Another example is in Awakening when Anders whistles at the Andraste statue and comments on her looks. One option is for the Hero to say "Don't say such things!".

 

You could also say, "It's just a statue."  Not a very strong piece of evidence.

 

In DA:I, Cassandra and Sera have some banter where Sera says they put Justinia V on plates in Val Royeaux. Cassandra takes issue with this, and later calls it an unorthodox display of faith. These are just decorative plates, mind you, to be kept in holders and placed on walls and shelves. You don't eat off them, as Sera thinks. Cass takes issue with this, even though it's just a depiction of the Divine. So depicting Andraste at all on a mage staff should be a bigger issue for Cassandra, and especially if the staff is Tevinter and the depiction is of Andraste nude with huge boobs.

 

I'm pretty sure that has more to do with the fact that she knew Justinia personally.  Justinia =/= Andraste.  Plus, just because Cassandra takes issue with it, does not mean that most people in Thedas do as well.

 

The Guardian chastised Leliana and asked if she thought herself Andraste's equal simply for believing the Maker spoke to her through symbolism. So what offense would the Guardian see in someone making a design of her in the nude? No artist is Andraste's equal, and therefore none are worthy to craft her in ways equal to themselves. Only depictions that venerate Andraste would be acceptable.

 

The Guardian is a very poor example simply due to his disconnection with the rest of the world for centuries.  He's actually somewhat surprised when you tell him that Tevinter is no longer as powerful as it once was.  Plus, he actually knew Andraste, so he would likely see such depictions as highly disrespectful.  Why?  Because he was directly affected by her actions, which led to him being utterly devoted to defending her, and likely, her honor.

 

You likely wouldn't care if you saw nude pics of some random woman you didn't know, but I'd assume that you'd take offense to someone posting nude pics of one of your friends on the internet.

 

On that note, the gift to Wynne (The Search for the True Prophet) was a book about Andraste possibly being a mage, and not the Maker's chosen. The book was saved from a fire at one point. This indicates people have a problem with Andraste being depicted in ways that do not revere her memory.

 

Same case with the rumors about her having an affair with Shartan.

 

 

The former has more to do with the disagreement between Tevinter and the White Chantry nations over Andraste.  The latter has more to do with the fact the human/elf pairings are frowned upon in most circles.  All this proves is that people are highly offended when their opinion on Andraste's image is confronted with conflicting opinions.

 

 

(1) Another banter with Cassandra and Sera has Sera finishing a joke. Cassandra says it is somewhat blasphemous. Again, this is a little thing, a joke, and yet Cass considers it somewhat blasphemous. (2) Now apply this perspective to a nude design of Andraste on a staff. And if you think nudity is somehow less than a dirty joke in Thedas, I point to the Wicked Grace party where Cassandra states that she's leaving because she doesn't want to witness Cullen's walk of shame back to the barracks. (3) The Vint does though, because he's from the same place that made the staff design.

 

1: Again, Cassandra doesn't represent the majority of Thedas.  Think about it like this: a lot of people will laugh at jokes about asians except asians themselves.  Obviously, there are exceptions, but just because some people are offended at the joke, does not mean that applies to everyone.

 

2: Again, this has to do with the fact that Cassandra knows Cullen.  She sees him as a friend and would not like to see his dangly bits due to that.  It has nothing to do with her stance on nudity in general.

 

3: Dorian's.... Dorian.  Just because he's from Tevinter, doesn't mean that he represents the entirety of the population.  Just like how IB doesn't represent the entirety of the Qun or how Anders doesn't represent all mages.

 

(1) In general, people in Ferelden exalt Andraste and treat her memory with respect. Nudity is not something people just shrug off like it's no big deal. Cullen's story at the party about the recruit confirms this. (2) There are other examples of references to nudity and it's connection to sex, like how Sera wonders what Blackwall looks like underneath all that armor, not "like that" thought. If nudity was no big deal, she wouldn't have needed to add that disclaimer.

 

1: You seem to remember his story differently than I do.  He never said anything about people being shocked or offended.  In fact, he specifically says that they all started applauding.

 

2: Sera has a dirty mind.  Besides, when she says "Not like that.", she's saying that because she is not attracted to men and doesn't want any confusion about that.

 

So for these reasons, and others I may not recall at the moment, I believe that most people in Thedas have a strong sense of modesty and because of this would not appreciate Andraste being depicted as nude.

 

I get that this is your opinion, but your reasoning behind it doesn't really add up.  Anyway, I just wanted to actually say something somewhat constructive on here for once, not start an argument.

 

* heads back to sidelines and resumes munching on popcorn *

[Dai Grepher]

You know, it would be immensely helpful if you could manage to decide on precisely what it is you're arguing...
 

 

I said I personally don't mind that she's nude, and that my main concern is the breast size and shape, and thus the emphasis. That is a separate issue from what the people of Thedas would take issue with.