1194 réponses à ce sujet

[BabyPuncher]

It may have made far more sense than any other ending.

 

But that doesn't really matter when it was as boring as lying in the bed and staring at the ceiling.

 

Pretty much. Writing an ending that 'makes sense' is the easiest thing in the world.
 

[midnight tea]

Actually, it's the exact opposite - a coherent ending for a story this big and complex (and interactive) is probably one of the hardest things there is, at least for storytellers.

[BabyPuncher]

Actually, it's the exact opposite - a coherent ending for a story this big and complex (and interactive) is probably one of the hardest things there is, at least for storytellers.

 

Not true in the slightest. Here, watch me write out a completely coherent ending for pretty much any big, complex story in existence.

 

The protagonist gets shot/stabbed/blown up, along with his or her friends and dies. The bad guy cackles and completes whatever dastardly plan he was working on. The end.

 

Completely coherent.

Completely sensible.

[ShadowLordXII]

Not true in the slightest. Here, watch me write out a completely coherent ending for pretty much any big, complex story in existence.

 

The protagonist gets shot/stabbed/blown up, along with his or her friends and dies. The bad guy cackles and completes whatever dastardly plan he was working on. The end.

 

Completely coherent.

Completely sensible.

 

Only if the methods and internal logic of the bad guy's victory is consistent and coherent.

 

Either wise, it's just as cheap.

[Aulis Vaara]

Corypheus should never have been allowed to be Voldemort. We should've had to solve his immortality for ourselves by thinking it through.

[Aulis Vaara]

Actually, it's the exact opposite - a coherent ending for a story this big and complex (and interactive) is probably one of the hardest things there is, at least for storytellers.

No it's easy. Just don't deus ex machine his immortality away. Allow us to solve the problem for ourselves and you have an instantly satisfying ending.

The climax begins by telling us: you know those victories you have had against your enemy? Well, they don't matter, because this guy is effectively immortal and can keep going forever. It is the biggest setback of the game. But ten minutes later a goddess whispers in your ear: "naw dawg, he be Voldemort, kill his snake" and then you do.

Instead, we could have searched for an answer to his immortality, maybe try to take his darkspawniness away. A struggle to find an answer. Instead we get a boring final boss.

[Dark Helmet]

Not true in the slightest. Here, watch me write out a completely coherent ending for pretty much any big, complex story in existence.

 

The protagonist gets shot/stabbed/blown up, along with his or her friends and dies. The bad guy cackles and completes whatever dastardly plan he was working on. The end.

 

Completely coherent.

Completely sensible.

 

Best ending ever.

 

Stupid protagonists need to be knocked down a peg.

 

Long Live Emperor Cardboard Villain the Lame!

[X Equestris]

No it's easy. Just don't deus ex machine his immortality away. Allow us to solve the problem for ourselves and you have an instantly satisfying ending.
The climax begins by telling us: you know those victories you have had against your enemy? Well, they don't matter, because this guy is effectively immortal and can keep going forever. It is the biggest setback of the game. But ten minutes later a goddess whispers in your ear: "naw dawg, he be Voldemort, kill his snake" and then you do.
Instead, we could have searched for an answer to his immortality, maybe try to take his darkspawniness away. A struggle to find an answer. Instead we get a boring final boss.

I find taking "darkspawniness away" to be far more contrived than finding out Cory was using a soul jar.

[Aulis Vaara]

I find taking "darkspawniness away" to be far more contrived than finding out Cory was using a soul jar.

 

It has a precedent within the games. A soul jar doesn't. Oh, some people claim that's what Flemeth did, but in fact, Flemeth was just a summoning ritual (which again, has precedent within the games).

So which one is actually more contrived here?

[X Equestris]

It has a precedent within the games. A soul jar doesn't. Oh, some people claim that's what Flemeth did, but in fact, Flemeth was just a summoning ritual (which again, has precedent within the games).
So which one is actually more contrived here?

Flemeth was no summoning ritual, as she was quite possibly dead. Soul Jars have a precedent there. And who got their "darkspawniness" taken away? Fiona got the taint removed under freak circumstances that aren't understood, and are currently impossible to replicate. And she never stepped into the Black City.

[midnight tea]

We don't yet have full information about what Flemeth is/was or what some rituals actually are, so what you're doing here is assuming a lot of things without presenting concrete proof.

Also, it's not "naw dawg, he be Voldemort, kill his snake" - the dragon is not a horcrux, actually. Even Laidlaw or Darrah later confirmed on twitter that killing a dragon merely DISRUPTS Corypheus' power (Morrigan also says that in game) - making him temporarily vulnerable - instead of removing it entirely.

It makes sense, because I'm pretty sure Corypheus didn't command the dragon back when he was in Warden prison - and he was in Warden prison, because he was already immortal.

It's also hardly Deus Ex Machina... it requires going to Temple Of Mythal with full Inquisition forces + gathered allies (it's the actual climax of the game) to find out that Coryhpeus has a weakness, and we do so through an artifact of immense knowledge and power (it also indirectly suggests to us that the power Corypheus acquired or seeks are related to ancient elves and possibly their gods *hint, hint*), the using of which has consequences - including consequences we're likely yet to experience.

[X Equestris]

Flemeth even says if you ask her about the amulet that it contained "just a piece" of her. Similar to Cory's dragon. And as mentioned above, there is the implication that what Cory did with his dragon may be based on the Ancient Elves and their gods.

[Carmen_Willow]

Actually, it's the exact opposite - a coherent ending for a story this big and complex (and interactive) is probably one of the hardest things there is, at least for storytellers.

I would agree. A good ending is one of the hardest things to write in fiction.

[Aulis Vaara]

Flemeth is goddess who can enter and leave the Fade at will, summoning her from there after she is killed is no biggie for her. And summoning does require a bit of her.

Even if you think it's a soul jar, it required a third party ritual.

[midnight tea]

You're telling it as if it's an established, in-game fact, while at the same time we have no idea if Flemeth is actually a goddess (or what does it mean to be an ancient elven goddess), nor if it's "a biggie" or not to be summoned form wherever she dwells. I assume that it's not as easy as you think it is, otherwise her elaborate plan has little to no sense (why hiding herself as an old woman and having a ton of daughters - one of which she plans to possess???)

 

Also - what does soul-jar requiring a third party ritual has to do with anything? It definitely has nothing to do with your claims that solution to kill Coypheus is apparently deus ex machina, nor that it's contrived...

[Aulis Vaara]

It's no biggie, because she is 1 some form of Fade spirit, possession and all, 2 we know we can summon fade spirits.

Third party is an issue because there was no-one to revive Cory and he revived anyway. Furthermore, he is not a Fade spirit and not even connected to the Fade anymore (the Taint is alien to spirits), and it is explicitly shown that his regeneration happens through the Taint and we know that happens subconsciously from the Archdemon. Nothing to do with a soul jar at all, yet here is this convenient soul jar you can destroy, instead of this solution that has been foreshadowed since one of the first books.

[midnight tea]

Are you trolling or something? Three times already I've pointed out that your claims are unsubstantial, yet you keep throwing them as if it was an established in-game fact...

Also - are you actually reading responses to you? It has already been established that the dragon is not a soul jar per se, nor something that guarantees Corypheus immortality: Corypheus got himself a pet dragon to emulate gods of old (through knowledge and power provided by the elven orb) and did so evidently out of hubris - and that hubris has destroyed him.

And who said that a villain with similar power won't emerge (there were more than 2 magisters that have entered the Golden City) in the future installment, but one that WON'T be toying with ancient elven magic he/she doesn't fully understands? 

[Aulis Vaara]

Are you trolling or something? Three times already I've pointed out that your claims are unsubstantial, yet you keep throwing them as if it was an established in-game fact...

Also - are you actually reading responses to you? It has already been established that the dragon is not a soul jar per se, nor something that guarantees Corypheus immortality: Corypheus got himself a pet dragon to emulate gods of old (through knowledge and power provided by the elven orb) and did so evidently out of hubris - and that hubris has destroyed him.

And who said that a villain with similar power won't emerge (there were more than 2 magisters that have entered the Golden City) in the future installment, but one that WON'T be toying with ancient elven magic he/she doesn't fully understands? 

 

Your argument : "your claims are unsubstantiated!"

My argument : this argument is substantiated by this lore knowledge and this lore knowledge and that argument is substantiated by this lore knowledge.

Your argument : "but the devs decided to go with a temporary soul jar" (why does the temporary even matter?)

My argument : yeah, and that was a **** decision because it is not backed up by known lore and therefore doesn't make sense within the framework of Dragon Age and therefore it's a bloody DEUS EX MACHINA.

Now, do you actually want to continue this discussion?

[X Equestris]

Your argument : "your claims are unsubstantiated!"
My argument : this argument is substantiated by this lore knowledge and this lore knowledge and that argument is substantiated by this lore knowledge.
Your argument : "but the devs decided to go with a temporary soul jar" (why does the temporary even matter?)
My argument : yeah, and that was a **** decision because it is not backed up by known lore and therefore doesn't make sense within the framework of Dragon Age and therefore it's a bloody DEUS EX MACHINA.
Now, do you actually want to continue this discussion?

I've told you this before, but you clearly don't know what a deus ex machina is. And it is backed by lore.

[PapaCharlie9]

I thought the DAI story overall, and the ending in particular, was piecemeal and disappointing, but that was expected. After the ME3 fiasco, it was totally predictable that BW would play it a bit safe storywise on their next big AAA release, particularly around the ending. You may not like it, but you're not returning for refunds or filing lawsuits about it.

 

So I can't hold the writers too much to blame for the bland DAI story. It will be interesting to see what Patrick Weekes does with the franchise. His independent work, the Rogues of the Republic series, is very, very good, IMHO. You can see flashes of his influence in Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, but not enough by a long shot.

 

For calibration: I didn't start ME2 until after the ME3 fiasco, so when I finally got to ME3, it was the extended cut, so it all seemed fine to me. 

 

Besides, if the fiasco had to happen in order for the Citadel DLC to be what it is, so be it. Does anyone else think the DAI wicked grace cutscene was a very, very pale shadow of a nod towards the Citadel:Party? It was painful. I was glad that in my second PT, my PC had pissed off Varric so much that he never so much as mentioned a wicked grace game.

[BabyPuncher]

Besides, if the fiasco had to happen in order for the Citadel DLC to be what it is, so be it.

 

Citadel was not that great.

[blahblahblah]

Citadel was
not that great.

Well its much better than the stupid RGB ending.

[PapaCharlie9]

Citadel was not that great.

 

You have my pity.

[KaiserShep]

Citadel was not that great.

 

The identity theft story is ridiculous, but Citadel's greatest virtue lies in the fact that it gives us a permanent extension of the hub, as well as plenty of activities to take part in. The vanilla game's firing range is now a meaningless memory compared to the combat simulator.

[Aulis Vaara]

I've told you this before, but you clearly don't know what a deus ex machina is. And it is backed by lore.

 

Prove it. Give me the lore that proves that a soul can be split. We have only ever seen possession and one case that can more easily be explained by a summoning ritual than by the splitting of a soul.

 

And honestly, a goddess comes from a pool to solve the problem of Corypheus' immortality. That you don't see this as a Deus Ex Machina is mindboggling.

 

 

 

an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

 

 

A Deus Ex Machina (pron: Day-oos eks MAH-kee-nah) is when some new event, character, ability, or object solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a sudden, unexpected way. If the secret documents are in Russian, one of the spies suddenly reveals that they know the language. If a protagonist falls off a cliff, a flying robot will suddenly appear to catch them.