1194 réponses à ce sujet

[X Equestris]

Prove it. Give me the lore that proves that a soul can be split. We have only ever seen possession and one case that can more easily be explained by a summoning ritual than by the splitting of a soul.
 
And honestly, a goddess comes from a pool to solve the problem of Corypheus' immortality. That you don't see this as a Deus Ex Machina is mindboggling.

Those quotes prove nothing. The reveal didn't solve the problem: it gave you the ability to kill Cory, but it is not yet done. A deus ex machina would have done it for you.

If you want a deus ex machina, look at DAO where Flemeth saves you, with little in the way of foreshadowing,

And you need to show me where you get this summoning ritual nonsense. Flemeth straight up says that the amulet you carried contains a PIECE of her. There's your proof that a soul can be split.

[SolNebula]

After so many years BSN keeps baffling me. with their melodramatic titles.

In ME3 people went mad saying "NO happy ending??? How dare you!!!!"

Now people aren't happy if we win and our hero survive.

 

Gamers are just a whiny, incoherent and entitled bunch.

 

OP people like to win and survive the day. Is just a matter of fact, BW was severly criticized for having tried something different and now they just prefer to stick with the good old happy ending. Less problems and headaches.

[Shechinah]

(to SolNebula) I got the impression that amongst other things, some people were unhappy with the ME3 ending because they felt there was a lack of endings. People did not want a "we win and our hero survive" as the ending, they wanted to have it as a choice and earn that ending even if it would be the most difficult of endings to earn.

 

Similarly with Inquisition, some players want the choice of different endings,  they wanted a variety. It was the same with some of the complaints about DA2 ending.

 

I personally do not mind Inquisition's ending barring the lack of a Corypheus fight in the vein of his Legacy one but I can see why others do.

 

I'll agree with the tendency for overly dramatic titles.

[Aulis Vaara]

Those quotes prove nothing. The reveal didn't solve the problem: it gave you the ability to kill Cory, but it is not yet done. A deus ex machina would have done it for you.

If you want a deus ex machina, look at DAO where Flemeth saves you, with little in the way of foreshadowing,

And you need to show me where you get this summoning ritual nonsense. Flemeth straight up says that the amulet you carried contains a PIECE of her. There's your proof that a soul can be split.

 

You are willfully being stubborn. I provided proof from multiple sources and yet you ignore them because of no good reason. Furthermore, you claim your own definition of a Deus Ex Machina and then ignore that very definition in the example you provide! Flemeth does not kill the Darkspawn for you either, she only saves you. So which definition do you really want? Does the definition even matter? No matter what you want to call it, the resolution of the only real problem you face toward the end of the story is too easy and unsatisfying and should have been far more up to the player to figure out than it was.

If you are more easily pleased than that, good for you, but I want a decent story.

 

Secondly, a piece of her could well be the few hairs required to actually summon her. Who on earth thinks that if someone says "here's a piece of me" that they would cut their soul in half? How crazy do you think these people are?

 

And lastly, because you asked : summoning sciences.

 

Gamers are just a whiny, incoherent and entitled bunch.

Gamers do not all have to have the same idea. We're a diverse group with different ideas and thinking that we should all be the same is the real form of entitlement here.

As well, if you pay a significant chunk of your paycheck on a product, you are damn well entitled to get a product you enjoy. What kind of mad world do you want to live in where you have to be happy with the product you spent your hard earned money on, even if it turns out to be a pile of steaming dung. Seriously? Is that really what you want? No right for consumers to complain whatsoever?

 

"Don't be so cynical, eat your ****!"

[X Equestris]

You are willfully being stubborn. I provided proof from multiple sources and yet you ignore them because of no good reason. Furthermore, you claim your own definition of a Deus Ex Machina and then ignore that very definition in the example you provide! Flemeth does not kill the Darkspawn for you either, she only saves you. So which definition do you really want? Does the definition even matter? No matter what you want to call it, the resolution of the only real problem you face toward the end of the story is too easy and unsatisfying and should have been far more up to the player to figure out than it was.
If you are more easily pleased than that, good for you, but I want a decent story.
 
Secondly, a piece of her could well be the few hairs required to actually summon her. Who on earth thinks that if someone says "here's a piece of me" that they would cut their soul in half? How crazy do you think these people are?
 
And lastly, because you asked : summoning sciences.
 

Gamers do not all have to have the same idea. We're a diverse group with different ideas and thinking that we should all be the same is the real form of entitlement here.
As well, if you pay a significant chunk of your paycheck on a product, you are damn well entitled to get a product you enjoy. What kind of mad world do you want to live in where you have to be happy with the product you spent your hard earned money on, even if it turns out to be a pile of steaming dung. Seriously? Is that really what you want? No right for consumers to complain whatsoever?
 
"Don't be so cynical, eat your ****!"

In my example, Flemeth solves your problem by saving you from death at Ishal. The Well does not solve your problem immediately, as you Cory still has his immortality until you actually kill his dragon. It's still quite possible to fail at that.

Also, summoning sciences doesn't really explain how she reappears even if she is killed by the Warden.

[Aulis Vaara]

Also, summoning sciences doesn't really explain how she reappears even if she is killed by the Warden.

 

But the fan theory that she cut her soul in half does?

 

We don't understand all the magic involved, but we do know that Mythal is some kind of fade spirit and that fade spirits can be summoned. We also know that Flemeth can actually enter the fade in the flesh. Can we summon her from there? Apparently so.

 

We do know that summoning exists, we do know it's an option. It seems to be the simplest explanation.

 

Cutting your soul in half and basically duplicating yourself *somehow* is nothing but a crazy fan theory. There is NO support for it at all in lore, none whatsoever. In fact, there's not even proof that souls exist in Thedas at all.

[X Equestris]

In fact, there's not even proof that souls exist in Thedas at all.

There's the Archdemon and Warden mutual annihilation. And the OGB. So it seems that there is some sort of essence that intelligent, living beings have.

[Eliastion]

There's the Archdemon and Warden mutual annihilation. And the OGB. So it seems that there is some sort of essence that intelligent, living beings have.

Also ghosts. Going to the Fade without your body. That dead mage in DA:O who you encounter when Sloth demon drags your party into the Fade - the guy was there but was already dead on the outside. I'd say existence of souls is as confirmed as can be, really.

(...)
We don't understand all the magic involved, but we do know that Mythal is some kind of fade spirit(...)

Actually, we don't. We can only guess what Mythal really is. She seems much too static to be just a Fade spirit, she could indeed be more akin to a ghost of whatever she was originally. My pet theory is that first elven gods were originally nature spirits (not to be confused with Fade spirits) coming from this side of the Veil, as was supposedly also the case for Lady of the Forest. That would make them "mortal beings" like forest or a mountain, or a lake, or a see, or whatever.
They could also be originally elven mages or - yes - unusual Fade Spirits but either way lore isn't clear about this.

[BabyPuncher]

In ME3 people went mad saying "NO happy ending??? How dare you!!!!"

Now people aren't happy if we win and our hero survive.

 

Gamers are just a whiny, incoherent and entitled bunch.

 

OP people like to win and survive the day. Is just a matter of fact, BW was severly criticized for having tried something different and now they just prefer to stick with the good old happy ending. Less problems and headaches.

 

Do you grasp the concept that there's actually more to good writing than how supposedly 'happy' the outcome is?

 

That you can have a 'happy' ending that's well written and an ending just as 'happy' that's atrociously written, like Inquisition's?

 

That there's actually other things in play than how 'happy' the story is?

 

(For the record, I really wouldn't consider Inquisition a happy ending at all. The cast was generally a bunch of vapid dullards, and so I really don't care all that much what happens to them anyway.)

[Aulis Vaara]

There's the Archdemon and Warden mutual annihilation. And the OGB. So it seems that there is some sort of essence that intelligent, living beings have.

 

The first doesn't do the same for Corypheus who also has a soul, so there's clearly something wrong with the theory that it's mutual annihilation. The OGB has some kind of essence from the Old God, but again, that essence did not annihilate/supplant/merge with Kieran's "soul", so something odd is still going on there. 

 

Also ghosts. Going to the Fade without your body. That dead mage in DA:O who you encounter when Sloth demon drags your party into the Fade - the guy was there but was already dead on the outside. I'd say existence of souls is as confirmed as can be, really.

 

Ghosts are never encountered, only Fade spirits re-enacting battles or emotionally strong situations. The Fade is a realm of willpower and emotion. A lot of that can remain behind without the need for a soul. We don't actually know if this has anything to do with a soul. A lot of people who were thought to be dead souls in the Fade turned out to be Fade spirits or illusions by Fade spirits. Niall may not have been dead in the real world yet, explaining why he was still in the Fade. He was dead when we woke up, but we can't say anything of before then. He may also have had his appearance taken by a spirit akin to the spirit of faith who takes on Divine Justinia's appearance.

Every occurrence of a "soul" can also be explained otherwise up until this point and some occurrences even raise massive questions because the explanations don't match what we see and experience in the games.

 

 

Actually, we don't. We can only guess what Mythal really is. She seems much too static to be just a Fade spirit, she could indeed be more akin to a ghost of whatever she was originally. My pet theory is that first elven gods were originally nature spirits (not to be confused with Fade spirits) coming from this side of the Veil, as was supposedly also the case for Lady of the Forest. That would make them "mortal beings" like forest or a mountain, or a lake, or a see, or whatever.
They could also be originally elven mages or - yes - unusual Fade Spirits but either way lore isn't clear about this.

 

She wandered the Fade and possessed Flemeth, she also has the same ideological shenanigans as Justice who got corrupted into Vengeance by being linked to a human. The similarities ARE there. The exact nature does not matter, the point is that she clearly has things in common with fade spirits, and thus being summoned is the simplest and most likely explanation for her shenanigans in Dragon Age 2.

Originally, I think she very much was a powerful elf, but after she became a goddess, she was at least part spirit or had a spirit bound to her, and it is that spirit that survived to bond with Flemeth.

As for the lady of the forest, she is a massive exception in the lore and will likely either be retconned into just being a Fade spirit, or she will be ignored and treated as early installment weirdness.

[ShadowLordXII]

After so many years BSN keeps baffling me. with their melodramatic titles.

In ME3 people went mad saying "NO happy ending??? How dare you!!!!"

Now people aren't happy if we win and our hero survive.

 

Gamers are just a whiny, incoherent and entitled bunch.

 

OP people like to win and survive the day. Is just a matter of fact, BW was severly criticized for having tried something different and now they just prefer to stick with the good old happy ending. Less problems and headaches.

 

"Groans"

 

The Majority didn't hate ME3's ending because it was unhappy or a downer.

 

Allow me to direct you to two videos that summarizes the reasonable backlash so that there's no confusion about why people didn't like the ME3 ending.

 

AngryJoe's take:

 

Tasteful Understated Nerdrage: 

 

It's one thing to hate an ending because it felt like victory was too easy; it's another to dislike an ending because it wasn't happy; and it's definitely something else to criticize an ending for undoing and invalidating everything that was good, interesting and enjoyable about a three game trilogy in only 15 minutes.

 

Don't strawman people for not accepting something that's blatantly bad. Especially since you're essentially accusing anywhere from 50% to 90% of an overall fandom as being whiny and entitled idiots. That's a low blow that is both unjustified and mis-aimed

[dragonflight288]

One thing about Mythal I think gets overlooked is one of the very things that makes Morrigan so confident in drinking from the Well.

 

Mythal was murdered. 

 

Yet Flemeth is both herself and Mythal, and in the Fade outright says she wants revenge for what Mythal suffered as if Mythal was some other being, while also being Mythal and could control Morrigan or the Inquisitor. 

 

I think it's actually near impossible to tell where Mythal ends and Flemeth begins. 

[BabyPuncher]

It's one thing to hate an ending because it felt like victory was too easy; it's another to dislike an ending because it wasn't happy; and it's definitely something else to criticize an ending for undoing and invalidating everything that was good, interesting and enjoyable about a three game trilogy in only 15 minutes.

 

Well spoken.

[Eliastion]

(...)
Every occurrence of a "soul" can also be explained otherwise up until this point and some occurrences even raise massive questions because the explanations don't match what we see and experience in the games.
(...)

That's your problem right there, you assume there are no souls and then you go the extra mile to explain everything without it. But even by doing so you end up with "willpower and emotion" that persists after death.
Simply accepting existence of souls requires much less intellectual gymnastics to hold together what we learn and encounter in the games.

[Aulis Vaara]

That's your problem right there, you assume there are no souls and then you go the extra mile to explain everything without it. But even by doing so you end up with "willpower and emotion" that persists after death.
Simply accepting existence of souls requires much less intellectual gymnastics to hold together what we learn and encounter in the games.

Souls actively contradict what we see in the games. We know that will and emotion and memory persist because that's what the Fade is.

You ASSUME souls exist despite evidence to the contrary.

[dragonflight288]

Souls actively contradict what we see in the games. We know that will and emotion and memory persist because that's what the Fade is.

You ASSUME souls exist despite evidence to the contrary.

 

And yet even spirits like Justice openly acknowledge that the souls of mortals pass through the Fade to go to some, other place. 

 

He says this in Awakening in the Fade if we choose to help the villagers trapped in the Fade by the Baroness. 

[Aulis Vaara]

And yet even spirits like Justice openly acknowledge that the souls of mortals pass through the Fade to go to some, other place.

He says this in Awakening in the Fade if we choose to help the villagers trapped in the Fade by the Baroness.

Could be spirits or delusions or nothing. Spirits see and believe and re-enact what mortals do. They believe in the Maker because that's what mortals do, they believe that souls pass through the Fade because that's what mortals do.

Furthermore, we know that things in the Fade aren't necessarily real, conf the sloth demon's nightmares.

[dragonflight288]

Could be spirits or delusions or nothing. Spirits see and believe and re-enact what mortals do. They believe in the Maker because that's what mortals do, they believe that souls pass through the Fade because that's what mortals do.

Furthermore, we know that things in the Fade aren't necessarily real, conf the sloth demon's nightmares.

 

It is the Fade. It is all real, but not necessarily what we perceive. Our will is reality, our imagination shapes the world and that world becomes real because it is how we saw it. 

 

It may not have been the villagers, but if it was so willed by the baroness or the pride demon, then for all intents and purposes, they were the villagers. 

[Lady Artifice]

Souls actively contradict what we see in the games. We know that will and emotion and memory persist because that's what the Fade is.
You ASSUME souls exist despite evidence to the contrary.

I'm sorry, could you clarify what this evidence to the contrary is?

I was under the impression that you'd only pointed out a lack of evidence in favor, rather than any present evidence against.

[Aulis Vaara]

Souls are said to cancel each other out, but Corypheus can take over someone with a soul just fine, and apart from that Kieran can perfectly go without his old God soul (the only one he should have, according to Morrigan during the Dark ritual).

[Rannik]

Ewwwwwwwwww call of duty!!!

 

Are people still mad that Black Ops II has a better branching story than anything Bioware has done in the last 10 years?

 

There's no need to be upset 

[X Equestris]

Souls are said to cancel each other out, but Corypheus can take over someone with a soul just fine, and apart from that Kieran can perfectly go without his old God soul (the only one he should have, according to Morrigan during the Dark ritual).

The soul of a Warden and Archdemon supposedly cancel each other out. Yet Flemeth says that a soul can't be forced on the unwilling, which is what I'm betting happens in that case. The contradiction destroys both, as the OGS can't back out. Cory can bend the minds of Wardens, potentially making them willing to let him in. Darkspawn are soulless, so there's no issue if he needs to jump to one. And as we see at the temple, he can take over dead, tainted bodies.

Kieran, on the other hand is a creation of a different sort. As Morrigan says, the child is young enough to absorb the OGS. That doesn't mean there wouldn't be a normal soul at some point. If the child's human soul doesn't arrive until after the Archdemon is slain, then there is no contradiction.

[BabyPuncher]

(to SolNebula) I got the impression that amongst other things, some people were unhappy with the ME3 ending because they felt there was a lack of endings. People did not want a "we win and our hero survive" as the ending, they wanted to have it as a choice and earn that ending even if it would be the most difficult of endings to earn.

 

Similarly with Inquisition, some players want the choice of different endings,  they wanted a variety. It was the same with some of the complaints about DA2 ending.

 

A lack of variety is not the problem at all. Inquisition easily could have had a variety of endings with various degrees of death and failure. 

 

Variety does not make the writing any better.
 

[BabyPuncher]

This is rich.

 

Do explain how George RR Martin, one of the best writers of recent times, is a clown?

 

Because he’s ridiculous.

 

Because he takes every opportunity to endorse the idiotically childish notion that more failure and death equates to more maturity, sophistication, ‘realism,’ and intelligence. A notion largely at play behind the abysmal state of the writing industry as a whole.

 

Because he's an appalling hypocrite who wholeheartedly embraces the same tropes he sneers at.

 

Because he crowns himself a master of 'realism' and is too incompetent to reason through how his methods push fiction further towards pretend-land and farther away from reality.

[In Exile]

There's the Archdemon and Warden mutual annihilation. And the OGB. So it seems that there is some sort of essence that intelligent, living beings have.

We don't actually know if the GWs and the AD wipe each other out. The Wardens seem to think so but that doesn't mean anything. Their explanation for it is wrong, since we see two souls co-exist in one body with the OGB.