1194 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

I think it's a testament to how sloppily it's presented that I can't argue with leaguer's response and yet, no, it doesn't feel urgent to me in the least.

Feelings are subjective. yet it still a fight with a giant hole swallowing the world. I would say it was urgent but less desperate. In dao, you still felt a little small compered to how you feel in dai. the fight was harder and you felt your back to the wall. Dai is instead was about how fast you can kill the guy before it's too late. The archdemon always stayed dreadful but Cory didn't. My character was far less afraid of him then before.

it went from this....

 

to this...

 

 

but that was the point of the story. it's about you becoming a big force of power unlike dao and da2.

[BabyPuncher]

but that was the point of the story. it's about you becoming a big force of power unlike dao and da2.

 

That really makes this failing worse, not better.

[Yggdrasil]

I thought it could have been a little better, more like the Archdemon battle in Origins.  But I don't agree with the hyperbole of your thread title and initial post.  I mean, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I'd like the devs to know that I don't share it.

[BabyPuncher]

It's not hyperbole. I literally cannot think of a single story that has made this mistake.

[midnight tea]

I love how at this point you don't even bother with even a single, half-valid argument and only come here to repeat "It's the worst, it's the worst, it's the worst!" ad nauseam, apparently in an attempt to alter reality and make your opinion true...

[X Equestris]

That really makes this failing worse, not better.

It's not hyperbole. I literally cannot think of a single story that has made this mistake.

Care to elaborate, or are you going to continue making vague, subjective statements like you have the entire thread?

[leaguer of one]

That really makes this failing worse, not better.

Nope. It just points out it's different from dao. That's it. just because you don't like does not mean it's bad. From the start the point of the story was about a pc who becomes the greatest force in thedus. why would the ending differ from that concept?

[dragonflight288]

That really makes this failing worse, not better.

 

Entirely subjective. What you see as a failing, others do not. 

 

Your belief in this game's failure to you as a customer is entirely subjective and is not a statement of fact that is true for everyone who played this game. 

[dragonflight288]

deleted 

[leaguer of one]

Then give us pure examples from a story-telling, thematic, allegorical, or the use of inverted tropes and how the ending fails the rest of the game to explain with some semblance of evidence why your opinion is more valid than everyone else who disagrees with you. 

Are you quoting the right person because I have no issue with the ending.

[SACanuckin Oz]

My issue with the ending is as follows: Corypheus is introduced to the story (and to legacy for DA2 players), as one the THE ancient magisters that entered the Golden City and challenged the Maker. The very first darkspawn, unimaginably powerful mages that could enter the Fade in their real form. This sounds like an epic opponent, and the first meeting is great as his presence is powerful (great voice acting!). The main protaganist barely survives this encounter.

 

After this, we only encounter Corypheus via the war table, or in the periphery. He has somehow lost this incredible presence, and seemingly, this power. And later in the MQ, he always seems to be that little late to the dance. Why don't we get to exchange a few blow in the Temple of Mythal? All out of our hands.

 

And then the final battle, and who shows up? No ancient incredibly powerful Magister, who once challenged the very Maker himself. Not even the very challenging (just awakened) Corypheus from Legacy. No, it's this weakling, barely able to cast any troublesome magic, who doesn't call on any darkspawn or demons to assist him, who doesn't use blood magic to try and enslave one of the party members, who just doesn't....pose any challenge or threat. Empty threat, no challenge. Not even as challenging as any of the dragons we encounter along the way. How on earth did he succeed in enslaving a dragon is beyond me, he was that pathetic.

 

And sure, we find out that Solas is something else, and actually assisted Corypheus at some point, or at least got his orb stolen. Good material for an expansion or next chapter I guess, but it does NOT explain why Corypheus is this bad a boss to overcome. In THIS chapter. His buildup makes him sound impressive, his delivery is worse than mediocre. Even if they simply gave him his DA2 strategy and powers, this would have been more of a moment that makes you feel you "beat the game".

 

And that rousing speech afterwards "Let's go to Skyhold"...powerful stuff, and then the gala dinner, where nobody actually showed up - no Celene/Briala, no Grey Wardens, no Fiona/Templar Commander. Where the pezzaz after beating the so-called Arch-arch darkspawn?

 

Boring. Out

 

The vitriol these threads evoke are amazing...

[dragonflight288]

Are you quoting the right person because I have no issue with the ending.

 

My bad. Quoted the wrong person.

[JeffZero]

but that was the point of the story. it's about you becoming a big force of power unlike dao and da2.

 

Eh. Fair enough. 

 

My subjective feelings are still a bit hurt by the presentation, but you draw an interesting point. I like the transformation between those two pictures you chose.

[Aulis Vaara]

Nope. It just points out it's different from dao. That's it. just because you don't like does not mean it's bad. From the start the point of the story was about a pc who becomes the greatest force in thedus. why would the ending differ from that concept?

Good storytelling? An actual climax? It feels like Haven is the climax and the whole rest of the game is just wrapping up loose ends. That's not satisfying at all.

At least the Warden storyline gives us a setback, but it is entirely ruined by the terrible sadistic choice at the end.

[JeffZero]

That's a good way of putting it. Haven really does feel like the climax. It should have been the first of three climaxes, really. At least the first of two.

[midnight tea]

It's not the climax - it's the nadir or the revelation. Learn something about the classic monomyth guys, instead of pretending you know anything about storytelling.

 

Here, that should help:

 

[Aimi]

It's not the climax - it's the nadir or the revelation. Learn something about the classic monomyth guys, instead of pretending you know anything about storytelling.

on the one hand, I completely agree

on the other hand, three climaxes

[Aulis Vaara]

I've said this before, but Corypheus' immortality really should have been the setback at the end of act 2. After that, we should have fought him multiple times while a secondary party looks for a solution to the problem of his immortality. You kill him multiple time but he keeps coming back, more pissed off than before until you finally manage to kill him in some way actually related to the lore and what you have done in the game.

[Aulis Vaara]

It's not the climax - it's the nadir or the revelation. Learn something about the classic monomyth guys, instead of pretending you know anything about storytelling.

Here, that should help:

Nice little graph. It doesn't work well for games though, because you can't create a character arc for your protagonist while also giving the player freedom of choice (as in Bioware games). The hero's journey doesn't really apply here, the three act structure does. Besides, the hero's journey doesn't say anything about climaxes in any case and it's not the only story framework to work with.

[midnight tea]

Only Corypheus is simply not that kind of villain - one who goes on the field and fights. He's a schemer - aside from what he did at the Conclave, he almost got Wardens, Templars, Mages, assassinated the empress and marched to conquer the world with Thedas' heroes as his slaves, Venatori lackeys as well as an army of demons.

 

As an enemy he's fairly formidable, but not enough to be killed over and over (the Wardens and Hawke might not have killed him, but have defeated him more than once). His real power comes from manipulation - either a straightforward or magical one. And we beat him in his own game - we tear lackeys or potential slaves form under him, play political games, gather allies and stabilize what he wanted to destabilize.

 

Nice little graph. It doesn't work well for games though, because you can't create a character arc for your protagonist while also giving the player freedom of choice (as in Bioware games). The hero's journey doesn't really apply here, the three act structure does. Besides, the hero's journey doesn't say anything about climaxes in any case and it's not the only story framework to work with.

 

Are you even reading your own comments? Three act structure doesn't work for the exact reasons you've listed.

[Aulis Vaara]

Are you even reading your own comments? Three act structure doesn't work for the exact reasons you've listed.

Sorry? The three-part structure says nothing about character arcs, only about roughly what the hero will experience on his journey. The hero doesn't need to grow himself during his failures and the resolution of the problem can come from without. The main character is not vital to the three act structure.

In any case, regardless of which storytelling mechanism you ascribe too, the problem remains that the climax lies in Haven and not at the end of the game.

Also for the sake of clarity: the climax is the most intense point of the story, even if that point is the start of the story, and even if it coincides with another story significant moment like the revelation.

[SACanuckin Oz]

Corypheus proclaimed himself a god... Not a schemer, a GOD. We should experience some opposition from someone with that kind of power, and we do not

[KCMeredith]

First time I played the end I thought my game glitched and I missed the final mission or something, reloaded and still got ported right in front of the final boss. It felt extremely rushed and after 15 minutes the fight was over and I went home where my companions would no longer speak to me. Awesome.

 

The last 10 minutes of ME3 are...not good. But everything before that is amazingly well done and I was glued to my TV for the entire thing. The fleet arriving, fighting through London, bringing down that reaper blocking the beam. It felt like war, and more importantly you could feel that you're fighting a losing battle. You had that one shot, and the tension was real because everything was on the line.

 

But the same could be said for the other ME games or DA games. Fighting through Denerim and actually seeing the city you spent so much time in burning and crawling with darkspawn, fighting through Kirkwall, assaulting the Collector base, stopping Saren at the last minute. You had to push, you had to fight, and it felt great.

 

Maybe I just enjoy big battles too much, I understand that thats not everybodys favorite thing. But at least there was SOMETHING happening before the game was over, everything you did built up to this moment.

[midnight tea]

 

Sorry? The three-part structure says nothing about character arcs, only about roughly what the hero will experience on his journey. The hero doesn't need to grow himself during his failures and the resolution of the problem can come from without. The main character is not vital to the three act structure.

In any case, regardless of which storytelling mechanism you ascribe too, the problem remains that the climax lies in Haven and not at the end of the game.

Also for the sake of clarity: the climax is the most intense point of the story, even if that point is the start of the story, and even if it coincides with another story significant moment like the revelation.

 

You're missing the point. It's not about the hero, but about the freedom of choice - something you yourself mentioned before. You can't have a consistent three-part structure, when time when you follow main events depends pretty much entirely on player's choices. 

 

The game itself would have to either have a built-in timer or force story progression at some point. This is exactly the hero's journey is more relevant to understanding the story structure - it IS one, to the point that we see everything from one POV.

 

 

Corypheus proclaimed himself a god... Not a schemer, a GOD. We should experience some opposition from someone with that kind of power, and we do not

 

What does the fact that Corypheus declares himself a god has anything to do with methods he wants to achieve his godhood? 

 

This is a completely moot point. Especially when we consider that we have a (supposed) god amongst our own companions, who himself is a trickster and does NOT to have any sort of limitless power himself. 

Whatever 'god' is in the world of Thedas, it seemingly does NOT mean that he wields Yahweh-like powers. In fact, from the look of it, gods in that world fight (or fought) for position and influence in no different way than powerful leaders fight for powers, and scheming is a big part of it. Fen'Harel also plays his deceitful games and so does Flemeth/Mythal.

[SACanuckin Oz]

Maybe it's a moot point in your opinion, but not in mine. This Magister was able to enter the Golden City. You think that was through trickery too?

BTW, I 'm not sure you have the definitive interpretation to the story, so please refrain from patronising other's comments and interpretation