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Leveling Up, Do we really need it?


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#1
B.A. Broska

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At the D.I.C.E. Summit in Las Vegas, Electronic Arts chief creative officer Richard Hilleman spoke about how video games today are often too hard to learn for new players. While this is the comment that has got everyone up in arms making a huge fuss about it has become too mainstream so instead I am going to make a fuss about his other comment that everyone (except myself because I am a non-conformist) probably agrees with, his comment that "every game is RPG and you would not create a game without exp and level progression". While I have no respect for the man or his opinions and usually would not give them any second thought I do have to admit that this does seem to be the prevailing opinion in Video game creation now days so I guess it is worth addressing.

 

Why do we need leveling up and experience mechanics? Personally I am of the opinion that even games that market themselves as "RPG" don't necessarily need an experience based leveling up mechanic, of course experience based leveling up mechanics do have their place and when used correctly they can add a lot to a game however nowdays it seems most game developers have forgotten it's purpose yet insist on having them out of the misconception that the game needs a leveling up mechanic without knowing exactly why. Back in the old days leveling up and stats were supposed to represent character growth and your character's relative power level to every other creature in the land, you knew a hill giant had a base strength of 19 and a fire giant had a strength of 25, goblins were a threat to a level 1 party but by the time you got to level 5 they were a joke and you knew that even at level 5 going up against a dragon would be suicide. Now days with all this bullshit like level scaling levels have no meaning, want to face that Dragon at level 1? Go right ahead it has been scaled down to your level so you can kill it with ease, Goblins will rise in power with you in power so they will still be a consistent threat even at level 100 and with attributes reaching DBZ levels of absurdity they have lost any real meaning or significance. Just look at the Mass Effect and tell me what purpose the leveling up mechanic serves? You are not really unlocking new skills or abilities just increasing their power each level up however since enemies level up with you and rarely change the gameplay experience remains the same, sure you do more damage but then the enemy can take more damage so it still takes roughly the same amount of bullets to kill them and vice versa, does putting points in attributes and skills for the mere sake of it actually add that much to the game?

 

Of course then you have Madden and Call of Duty where the leveling up systems drip feed you new unlockable weapons and items but these systems don't exist for the sake of good game design but rather to keep the player playing over longer periods of time or to ****** them off to the point that they spend money on microtransactions to speed up the process, then they come out and tell us that "games take too long to learn" while being completely oblivious to the fact that the time it takes you to learn the game is nothing compared to the time it takes to unlock all the features, then when you reach max level it resets and you do it all again to earn "prestige" levels which are just like regular levels but you get a special gold star next to your name!

 

Edit: whoops, the comments about leveling up were actually by De Plater, I still disagree with them



#2
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

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Yes, we do. The steady progression of whatever virtual character's skills over time because of whatever experiences he faces is a pretty neat feeling. And really logical actually.


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#3
Jeremiah12LGeek

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Of course then you have Madden and Call of Duty where the leveling up systems drip feed you new unlockable weapons

 

 

Madden leveling unlocks weapons now!? :o


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#4
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Yes, we do. The steady progression of whatever virtual character's skills over time because of whatever experiences he faces is a pretty neat feeling. And really logical actually.

 

This. Just because somebody who doesn't seem to know what they're talking about comments on it doesn't mean we have to knee-jerk disagree.


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#5
Guest_TrillClinton_*

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I'm just waiting for someone to ask what an rpg is and turn this thread into a shitshow



#6
KingTony

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What even is an RPG?
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#7
wolfsite

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This seems to be more about using the Mechanic properly as there are games out there that have a leveling mechanic of some sort but it doesn't really add to the gameplay or just feels unnecessary (as like he said with games that scale all the enemies to your level.)



#8
SlottsMachine

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Madden leveling unlocks weapons now!? :o

 

 

Damn. So that's what they replaced Franchise Mode with. 



#9
B.A. Broska

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This. Just because somebody who doesn't seem to know what they're talking about comments on it doesn't mean we have to knee-jerk disagree.

 

Ok it seems people are missing the point, just what do you think I am getting at here? Do you think I am trying to say that leveling up mechanics should be removed from all and every game to ever exist or do you honestly believe that all and every game needs a leveling up mechanic no matter how little it actually adds to the game?

 

Leveling up mechanics are good when done properly however it seems now days most game designers don't seem to know how to implement them or why they are even needed. All I am asking is that we take a step back and use those squishy pink things between our ears and re-evaluate the purpose behind such mechanics.

 

Look at Mass Effect 2 and tell me what purpose does the leveling up mechanic serve? It is certainly not a representation of character growth nor does increasing the power level of Shepard have a noticable effect on gameplay as the enemies level with you, don't you think the various skills and ammo types would have served better as equipment loadout options and weapon mods?



#10
The Hierophant

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Can't wait to see what ME4 will look like.



#11
RZIBARA

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Can't wait to see what ME4 will look like.

 

Third Person Shooter in a cinematic, super scripted, in your face, story. Very little dialogue options (if any), and super easy gameplay that has no levelling up system


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#12
The Hierophant

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Third Person Shooter in a cinematic, super scripted, in your face, story. Very little dialogue options (if any), and super easy gameplay that has no levelling up system

That sounds pretty generic.



#13
RZIBARA

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That sounds pretty generic.

 

Yep, I really hope that is not what it turns into, but given who EA is sounding from this, I wouldnt even be surprised.


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#14
SlottsMachine

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Ok it seems people are missing the point, just what do you think I am getting at here? Do you think I am trying to say that leveling up mechanics should be removed from all and every game to ever exist or do you honestly believe that all and every game needs a leveling up mechanic no matter how little it actually adds to the game?

 

Leveling up mechanics are good when done properly however it seems now days most game designers don't seem to know how to implement them or why they are even needed. All I am asking is that we take a step back and use those squishy pink things between our ears and re-evaluate the purpose behind such mechanics.

 

Look at Mass Effect 2 and tell me what purpose does the leveling up mechanic serve? It is certainly not a representation of character growth nor does increasing the power level of Shepard have a noticable effect on gameplay as the enemies level with you, don't you think the various skills and ammo types would have served better as equipment loadout options and weapon mods?

 

I love how you use ME2 as an example but ignore the fact that BioWare recognized they had gone to far in terms of streamlining mechanics and made the needed adjustments for ME3. 



#15
Gravisanimi

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That sounds pretty generic.

EA will counter by calling it "accessible"



#16
B.A. Broska

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I'm just waiting for someone to ask what an rpg is and turn this thread into a shitshow

 

Why are we not able to ask such questions on an RPG forum without it turning into a shitshow? One would think it would be a valid and interesting discussion topic for those with an interest in video games and game design?



#17
The Hierophant

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Yep, I really hope that is not what it turns into, but given who EA is sounding from this, I wouldnt even be surprised.

Especially after that "Our games are too difficult" garbage.



#18
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Why are we not able to ask such questions on an RPG forum without it turning into a shitshow? One would think it would be a valid and interesting discussion topic for those with an interest in video games and game design?

I can't name a single "what is an rpg" thread that hasn't turned into a circle jerk or shitshow



#19
SlottsMachine

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Why are we not able to ask such questions on an RPG forum without it turning into a shitshow? One would think it would be a valid and interesting discussion topic for those with an interest in video games and game design?

 

its because people have different definitions of what an RPG is. Some see anything with an extensive levelling mechanic as an RPG while others see actual character role play as an RPG, etc, etc. As far as things to argue about its up there on the pointless scale.  



#20
wolfsite

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I can't name a single "what is an rpg" thread that hasn't turned into a circle jerk or shitshow

 

Ya everyone has there own opinion on "What is an RPG" and frankly it's hard to really have a serious discussion on an Internet forum since people can be jumping in and out throughout several days so they may miss some posts if they don't catch up or trolls may come in to try to set a fire and derail the conversation.  Though I am sure if everyone here could get in a room together and have the discussion there would be a lot of great concepts and we would have a better idea of how each other thinks on the topic.



#21
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EA are saying a bunch of stupid poop.



#22
slimgrin

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Can't wait to see what ME4 will look like.

 

Streamlined to hell no doubt.


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#23
wolfhowwl

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Third Person Shooter in a cinematic, super scripted, in your face, story. Very little dialogue options (if any), and super easy gameplay that has no levelling up system

 

We want the Uncharted audience?



#24
mybudgee

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I have a feeling ME4 will be underwhelming

#25
B.A. Broska

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I love how you use ME2 as an example but ignore the fact that BioWare recognized they had gone to far in terms of streamlining mechanics and made the needed adjustments for ME3. 

 

I have no idea what your point is, seriously I have no idea what you are trying to get at? The question is what purpose does the leveling up mechanic serve and why do games need them, what purpose did it serve in Mass Effect 2 and would the game have been any worse without it? Not sure why Bioware making adjustments to Mass Effect 3 invalidates the question, especially considering that as far as I can remember the leveling up mechanics remained relatively unchanged?