its because people have different definitions of what an RPG is.
Isn't that what makes the conversation interesting? I mean if we all universally agreed on the definition it would make the discussion kind of pointless and just because we all have differing views does not mean that we can't all respect each other's opinions.
Hey! At least UC has climbing and... and that one odd puzzle every other level.We want the Uncharted audience?
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Ok it seems people are missing the point, just what do you think I am getting at here? Do you think I am trying to say that leveling up mechanics should be removed from all and every game to ever exist or do you honestly believe that all and every game needs a leveling up mechanic no matter how little it actually adds to the game?
Leveling up mechanics are good when done properly however it seems now days most game designers don't seem to know how to implement them or why they are even needed. All I am asking is that we take a step back and use those squishy pink things between our ears and re-evaluate the purpose behind such mechanics.
Look at Mass Effect 2 and tell me what purpose does the leveling up mechanic serve? It is certainly not a representation of character growth nor does increasing the power level of Shepard have a noticable effect on gameplay as the enemies level with you, don't you think the various skills and ammo types would have served better as equipment loadout options and weapon mods?
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Isn't that what makes the conversation interesting? I mean if we all universally agreed on the definition it would make the discussion kind of pointless and just because we all have differing views does not mean that we can't all respect each other's opinions.
The Mako is back?
We want the Uncharted audience?
Not want I want. That is what EA wants
Guest_TrillClinton_*
Okay,
Leveling up in rpgs is not needed. As long as there is a system that can be created to track and keep progression but it would also just be a different taste of the level up system basically.
The purpose of a leveling mechanic is to emulate reality. In reality you do not simply have all the knowledge you'll ever have at birth. As you learn you gain knowledge, experience, and abilities. The leveling mechanic is designed to emulate this.
Thus, I can say it would be VALID in just about every game out there. I'm not sure it's a good idea for every game, but it's VALID.
As for ME2, on ammo types I'd agree with you, that's silly that they're tied to leveling. However, learning new abilities with experience (and having to specialize them in the end) is a good idea I think.
Yes leveling up being representative of character growth, I believe I covered that in the OP. The problem is however that merely assigning points into various skills alone is not a valid representation of character growth, it has to have a tangible effect of gameplay to actually give you the impression you are getting stronger which in the Mass Effect games it just did not do, sure you can upgrade a skill so it does more damage however when the same Geth Soldier you fought at level one gains more damage resistance and health each time you level up how exactly does the gameplay experience change?
While it can be discussed calmly, in reality it rarely happens because the fact is if we all have a different definition, we can't advance the discussion. Ultimately our opinions on what an RPG is are just that, opinions, that have no fact behind them.
It's a discussion that by and large has no end point. There's no point where I can say that my definition of RPG is right and yours is wrong, or visa versa. We can present them, but too often we get into a combative mode where people disagreeing with us are saying we're wrong and so we take it personal..
That's just not really true, people's preferences congregate around certain games and not others, there's probably a "better" RPG model out there somewhere.
Anyway, my guess is that RPG mechanics and ideas are probably infinite in possibility, but you could probably always theoretically compact them to nothing.
The issue I think is it should be up to the individual player to do that, for seasoned RPG players they don't blink when they see level-up! But for someone new to video games as a whole, it's an additional "thing" to pay attention and thus plan around at least in some small capacity. It's like "Oh, what's this?" Consequently I think they should stay in games.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Yes leveling up being representative of character growth, I believe I covered that in the OP. The problem is however that merely assigning points into various skills alone is not a valid representation of character growth, it has to have a tangible effect of gameplay to actually give you the impression you are getting stronger which in the Mass Effect games it just did not do, sure you can upgrade a skill so it does more damage however when the same Geth Soldier you fought at level one gains more damage resistance and health each time you level up how exactly does the gameplay experience change?
That's just not really true, people's preferences congregate around certain games and not others, there's probably a "better" RPG model out there somewhere.
Anyway, my guess is that RPG mechanics and ideas are probably infinite in possibility, but you could probably always theoretically compact them to nothing.
The issue I think is it should be up to the individual player to do that, for seasoned RPG players they don't blink when they see level-up! But for someone new to video games as a whole, it's an additional "thing" to pay attention and thus plan around at least in some small capacity. It's like "Oh, what's this?"
They congregate but they're often just a little bit different. There are people here who feel JRPGs are RPGs. There are people here who think Dark Souls is an RPG. There are people here who think Witcher games, TES games, Bioware games, are RPGs--often at the exclusion of the others. There's no universal definition. There definitely isn't a "better" one, considering the term itself (which is meaningless).
Well RPG literally means role playing game, you assumed a role, which is what Dark Souls, older Bioware, TES, all had in common. I think the reason that definition no longer works is because of JRPGs, Witcher, etc, where you don't role play at all. I think the reason for that is simply the concept of playing a role wasn't ultimately nearly as interesting as the stat/mechanic/leveling/immersion factors that most RPGs coincidentally had.
As long as any game has those other things I suspect it should qualify as an RPG in the modern definition. You could just say it's the presence of "math."
Since the age of pre-9/11 leveling up existed in video games and it's a sacred tradition in gaming. Anyone who don't like it is the enemy of the state and a rebel. Repent to the king or face the consequences!
Of course not for every game. Sometimes it's nice to be free of it and just rely on your raw skill rather than micromanagement and planning.
I can understand the appeal it has on me, at least. It establishes your character as... a character who isn't just a vessel of your own agency. But he/she/it is still an extension of you so it's a bit of a power fantasy at the same time. It's one of the reasons I find Metroidvanias charming.
Madden leveling unlocks weapons now!?
Does this mean football will be fun to watch now?
It definitely did have a tangible effect on gameplay in ME2, my Crippling Slam is evidence of that.
Ok I guess you are referring to the stun that is added if you select the crippling version when you reach the final level of the slam skill? Yeah you are right it does have a tangible effect on gameplay but the thing is the final level of a skill where you get to select 2 different variants is the only time you will really notice a tangible effect on the way the skill handles so why not just allow for selection between the 2 variants from the get go or make it an equipment or loadout option?
You're talking about level-scaling, which is another topic entirely. I think it's terrible, but again that's not the same as condemning leveling itself (because occasionally you do come across low-level enemies in those kinds of games).
To be clear I am not condemning leveling itself, in fact character growth is core to what I believe an RPG should be, however I am not fond of games that throw in a leveling up mechanic just for the sake of it when it serves no real purpose and adds nothing to the game.
Ok I guess you are referring to the stun that is added if you select the crippling version when you reach the final level of the slam skill? Yeah you are right it does have a tangible effect on gameplay but the thing is the final level of a skill where you get to select 2 different variants is the only time you will really notice a tangible effect on the way the skill handles so why not just allow for selection between the 2 variants from the get go or make it an equipment or loadout option?
Why remove the skill trees when they can be improved?
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Well RPG literally means role playing game, you assumed a role, which is what Dark Souls, older Bioware, TES, all had in common. I think the reason that definition no longer works is because of JRPGs, Witcher, etc, where you don't role play at all. I think the reason for that is simply the concept of playing a role wasn't ultimately nearly as interesting as the stat/mechanic/leveling/immersion factors that most RPGs coincidentally had.
As long as any game has those other things I suspect it should qualify as an RPG in the modern definition. You could just say it's the presence of "math."
The Mako is back?
Yo, spoilers!
----
I feel most games can benefit from good leveling up mechanics and RPG elements, but I do agree that in a lot of situations they either go at it the wrong way or gate stuff just to intentionally keep you playing longer. There are more games out there than ever before, and the ones that can snag you and reward you with fulfilling unlocks tend to be the victors of the market.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Ok I guess you are referring to the stun that is added if you select the crippling version when you reach the final level of the slam skill? Yeah you are right it does have a tangible effect on gameplay but the thing is the final level of a skill where you get to select 2 different variants is the only time you will really notice a tangible effect on the way the skill handles so why not just allow for selection between the 2 variants from the get go or make it an equipment or loadout option?
To be clear I am not condemning leveling itself, in fact character growth is core to what I believe an RPG should be, however I am not fond of games that throw in a leveling up mechanic just for the sake of it when it serves no real purpose and adds nothing to the game.
Yo, spoilers!
----
Spoiled for who? Everyone in their 20s and 30s here have already played that game unless they hate sci-fi.
The brat kids and teens of today are so ungrateful and annoying. Spoiling games for them is their punishment!
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Spoiled for who? Everyone in their 20s and 30s here have already played that game unless they hate sci-fi.
The brat kids and teens of today are so ungrateful and annoying. Spoiling games for them is their punishment!
What even is an RPG?
Nothing or everything. What defined that genre in games was diluted beyond repair 20+ years ago. "choice that matters" Wing Commander 3 did that in the late 90's.
Its such a nebulous term that at the core games can and have been able to incorporate everything that should be "RPG". From Plateformers to FPS shooters.
Spoiled for who? Everyone in their 20s and 30s here have already played that game unless they hate sci-fi.
The brat kids and teens of today are so ungrateful and annoying. Spoiling games for them is their punishment!
Levels aren't inherently necessary for RPGs, let alone games in general.
What mattered was a system by which you could represent as many possible elements of a character to be chosen/developed by a player, and where gameplay focuses on the interaction of said elements with the game world (success of player initiated actions are more dependent on a character's ability than the player's). This along with systems of progression that allowed players to experience physical growth in their gameplay experience, accompanied by the growth that occurs as the 'character' progresses through the story, is IMO, core to the RPG experience.
I could probably rephrase that better, but w/e.
In any case, levels definitely aren't necessary. Some of the most hardcore RPGs don't utilise levels. And yes, I am of course going to reference Darklands. Why wouldn't I?
I could also reference some modern Action RPGs that don't utilise levels too:
Retour en haut
