99 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Skills - you learn new shills. The player character doesnt' become more powerfull in regards to pure stats (HP, MP, etc..) but rather more versatile in his repertoire, and thus overall more deadly.

 

Player knowledge - the PC never advances numerically. Rather as the player learns the fight system, the character becomes organically stronger trough the player.

 

Story progression - the character itself matures and progresses trough the world, without a significant impact to his skills

[mousestalker]

Leveling is part of being realistic. How can a game have any semblance of reality without a small celebration of leveling up? In my normal life there is nothing I look forward more to than the 'ding' of achieving a new level and receiving the heartfelt congratulations of strangers on the street. Games need to reflect that aspect of human life.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Non-Leveling games are stagnant which is ok for some of them.

Shooter games and adventures games don't need leveling up.

It's better be optional for Strategy games (no strong tendency toward existence or lack of them).

But RPG games need them.

 

*has no time for this and leaves*

[Seraphim24]

Enemy scaling can work within certain cirucumstances and depending on how it's done. The Baldur's Gate games had enemy scaling, and you wouldn't know it.

 

However the kind of level scaling that somehow became prevalent RPG design when Oblivion came out is dumb as hell.

 

Oblivion has got to be the worst example I've experienced, for sure.

 

  
Fair enough but now a days that's what it seems like, at least to me.

The 8 bit, 16 bit, 32bit generations had jrpg's crawling out of the woodwork. At this point and stage of the 360's lifespan we knew Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey were on the way not to mention Tri Ace games like Infinite Undiscovery, Star Ocean: Last Story and Resonance of Faith.

Final Fantasy XV withstanding ( a franchise which no longer carries as much weight as it used to ) and Persona 5 I'm not really sure what jrpg's are in the works for the PS4 and XBix One.

 

Honestly all mid-tier and mid-level game concepts are dying for major consoles. There aren't very many games of any kind coming out for PS4, whether that's RTS, head to head fighter, platformer, puzzle game, whatever. It's AAA FPS, MMO, there's like 3 things that are being made. Old school western story driven RPGs like Baldur's Gate etc aren't being made. Heck, what RPGs are coming out from either country in the traditional sense in recent times? Zestiria... um... I guess maybe DA:I came out for next-gen? Um.... um......

 

There might be like 100 games total for the whole PS4 console cycle given how expensive it has become to make games for it. They've become the equivalent of modern day Hollywood, practically.

 

And yet if you look at something like a mobile developer like Kemco, they've made probably around 20-25 JRPGs for just one system. You are touching on something that just has to do with the logistics of major AAA development more than anything.

[Seraphim24]

Not quite true. SE has said they're aiming for several mid-tier games a year--their entire Eidos catalog fits this category. We've got bloodborne, scalebound, and hellblade, action games, all coming within a year or two.

How are you defining mid tier?

 

Well I was just talking about JRPGs, I mean all 3 of those games are more like action RPGs I would think right? Or maybe even straight action games?

 

I guess mid tier just means like AA experience to me, not this kind of completely free Super Hexagon affair that someone programmed after class that has like one addicting feature, or AAA where it's designed to have maximum impact by adhering closely to certain previously established rules of success and has insane polish and gloss. Playstation 2 for instance had just dozens and dozens of those experiences. How many people played the Shadow Hearts series? They're really pretty cool JRPGs, but they wouldn't probably get made for PS4 because of how expensive/demanding the process can be.. I'm guessing.

 

Someone mentioned the absence of Tri-Ace, but I feel like you could see that in their games. Star Ocean 2 had it all, Star Ocean 3, well, it's 3D land now, they need more cinematics, cutscenes, environments, it gets harder, but they still squeeze a lot of Star Ocean soul into it. Star Ocean 4, well now it's gone from 3 to 4 to 5 years development, the graphics and everything have to be even more polished, more glossy, more cool cinematics, even more expensive, it feels like a strain to keep going on that route, so they don't make their next game for PS4, they make it for the Vita (Phantasy Star Nova).

 

I mean jiminey christmas just look at the time's of development for FF. It's like 1 year for 6 (SNES generation), probably 2 years for 7, 8, 10,  (PS1/PS2), 5 for XII and XIII (late PS2, early PS3 generation), and now .. what... 8 years for XV?

 

Honestly though my only point was that is not limited to JRPGs, like is there going to be a Soul Calibur VI for PS4 (head to head fighting)? I doubt it. Another Sin and Punishment? No, their next one went to 3ds. There have been many casualties, not just JRPGs.

 

Ahem actually that probably should have gone to PMs or something, this is a thread about leveling, which I still think is actually pretty cool, all things considered, it's scaling which I think is annoying.

[Wulfram]

Look at Mass Effect 2 and tell me what purpose does the leveling up mechanic serve? It is certainly not a representation of character growth nor does increasing the power level of Shepard have a noticable effect on gameplay as the enemies level with you, don't you think the various skills and ammo types would have served better as equipment loadout options and weapon mods?

While it doesn't effectively raise Shepard's power because of scaling, it does increase the complexity of gameplay as more options are unlocked, which makes the learning curve nicer for new players. It also allows the player to specialise their character in a particular playstyle.

You could do much of this with equipment loadout, it's true, but that would make the specialisation less permanent and thus make playthroughs feel less distinct, and also may be thematically less appropriate for things that are supposed to be a character's inherent skill. Biotics would be a lot less cool if they were from equipment loadouts rather than being innate.

Personally I am of the opinion that even games that market themselves as "RPG" don't necessarily need an experience based leveling up mechanic

Eh, for better or worse "RPG" nowadays means "levelling mechanics", at least in Video Games. Marketing a game as an RPG without levelling mechanics would be needlessly confusing.

[CrazyRah]

They would but it would be time based progress vs acquired progress. It's a bad example but it's just to ask the question "can a level up system be replaced if another system can represent something similar"

 

It's a good enough alternative

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I still don't get how progression system is not leveling up just like how DA:I is a turn based RPG. Enlighten me.

Spoiler

the second one is more urgent!

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Inquisition is not a turn based mechanic but it behaves like one. I like to call it real time turned based because in this case, Al the turn is determined by the player and of course it gives opportunity to play the game as real time. The first thing players do in this system is pause, that pause defines a turn. Mostly because after the inputs are inserted into the system, the A.I would react like how it would in a turn based mechanic which is directly after you have put in your inputs with the timer of inputs being negligible

 

I'm not sure if you're talking about that strategic view. Now I'm convinced it's not turn-based.

 

These are turn based:

 

 

 

 

I can pause Doom II by pressing "esc" and think about how to kill the monsters too. But it doesn't make it turn based.

[Dominus]

I don't need leveling in the classical sense. If I'm going to develop and grow a character, I don't want it to be based on how many Orcs I've killed or that sort of thing. I'd rather be trained into something or otherwise learn something in a more tangible way, instead of gaining and holding onto points in an imaginary bag.

Balanced or no, I'll always prefer a realistic take on experience.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

There is a big difference between Chess and Kung Fu!

[Zekka]

Can we just get an RPG where the main character is as op in the beginning of the game as a typical rpg main is by the end of the game? All we would need is to buy new weapons.