16 réponses à ce sujet

[Broganisity]

Oh great it's this guy again

Hey-a people!

I just wanted to share with you all an interesting theory I've been contemplating for awhile concerning our favorite race in Dragon Age: The Mabari.

Now I know what you're thinking: 'But Brogan, Mabari are dogs, not a race!' and I understand what you mean by this, but please: allow me to explain why I refer to them as such.

 

The Mabari were created in Tevinter by mixing Wolves and Mastiffs, as well as with the usage of magic. We know that Mabari are highly intelligent, far moreso than any 'normal' dog ever could be. We also know that they can become Grey Wardens (which is revealed to us through Dragon Age: Last Flight, as much as I don't care for the concept of books based on games), something that only 'sentient' beings can achieve. We get an explanation that a Grey Warden has to kill an archedemon because they are infected with The Blight, but also have a soul.

A soul. In the world of Dragon Age, this is something that's not entirely explained but probably reserved for the 'sentient' races: Dwarves, Elves, Humans, and Qunari. But Mabari can become Grey Wardens as they can go through the Joining...and to repeat: they were made by the Tevinter Imperium through the use of Magic. What type of magic is Tevinter infamous for using? Blood Magic. We hear multiple occasions where Blood Magic is referred to be used to change the mind or the physical body. Dorian's father considered blood magic to try and change Dorian's sexuality. You can ask Krem if they would use blood magic in order to change themselves into a man physically. We don't know the limits of blood magic in and of itself.

...are Mabari the product of using Blood Magic to transfer the souls of humans/elves into canines, thus creating highly intelligent war hounds?

Discuss.

[Nykara]

If you have ever been a dog owner - you should know that dogs themselves are already highly intelligent. Some have almost near like human understanding as it is. In all honesty I would not think it to be any more complex then increasing the intelligence of a species that is already intelligent.

[Bigdoser]

Well blood magic must of been involved in the creation of the Mabari. 

[Broganisity]

If you have ever been a dog owner - you should know that dogs themselves are already highly intelligent. Some have almost near like human understanding as it is. In all honesty I would not think it to be any more complex then increasing the intelligence of a species that is already intelligent.

The problem with using a real-world example is that Dragon Age is filled with non-realistic things: Dragons, Darkspawn, Magic, (Solas' shiny shiny head) the list goes on. We can't assume things that are the same in our world are the same in Thedas. Yes, dogs are intelligent, and we can expect as much in Thedas, but what constitutes a soul may not be the same between the two worlds. The concept of the soul itself in our world is also heavily debatable as it is.

And then take into account they are the product of magical manipulation from a people who just LOOOOOOVE Blood Magic, which is known for doing all sorts of freaky-deeky stuff to both the body, mind, and possibly the soul (in regards to Dragon Age). It's something we can't just disregard as a simple 'brain matter increaser', at least in my book.

 

To my knowledge, the only peoples known to be able to become Grey Wardens/Delayed ghouls are Elves, Dwarves, and Humans, along with Mabari (No Qunari has ever passed the joining before.). Other animals become ghouls quicker which could just be because of a lack of access to The Joining Ritual...this part here is just me side-mumbling to myself.

Also late response. :U

[Shahadem]

Mabari do not have souls. It is only suggested that magisters used blood magic on dogs, no actual proof. Just as there is no actual proof that Mabari are sentient. And even if they were, sentience does not imply the existence of a soul. A sentient computer is clearly soulless. A dog which is smarter than a normal dog isn't really all that different from an actual dog, it just has a bigger brain. Since Mabari cannot use magic then they cannot have souls.

[thats1evildude]

A sentient computer is clearly soulless.

Oh, don't let the Legion fans hear you say that.

[Big I]

Mabari do not have souls. It is only suggested that magisters used blood magic on dogs, no actual proof. Just as there is no actual proof that Mabari are sentient. And even if they were, sentience does not imply the existence of a soul. A sentient computer is clearly soulless. A dog which is smarter than a normal dog isn't really all that different from an actual dog, it just has a bigger brain. Since Mabari cannot use magic then they cannot have souls.

 

I'll accept your argument about non human lifeforms being soulless when you prove why humans have one.

 

Guess dwarves don't have souls either, they can't use magic.

[CoM Solaufein]

This is a sad souless topic.

[Broganisity]

Necroing my own thread because I just realized there were people replying...and I think it's an interesting topic to discuss.

 

 Since Mabari cannot use magic then they cannot have souls.

 

Let's evaluate this for a moment. Your argument here is that the ability to use magic is tied to having a soul.:

 

- Dwarves cannot normally use magic, but we would all say that they have souls.

 

- Darkspawn are said not to have souls, and yet there are some that are capable of using a specialized form of 'Blight Magic' that comes from the taint¹. They are otherwise unable to use normal magic. What's more, it seems Wardens who were not born mages can do something similar thanks to the research of Avernus. Regardless of the outcome of that particular choice, the evidence has existed to show that non-mage wardens can 'master their taint' in the form of magical abilities.

- Not everyone is born with the capacity to use magic, yet we would agree that all humans, elves, and Qunari mages would have a soul. If magic equates to having a soul...what about those not born with the ability?

 

With these things in mind, it becomes clear that magic capacity is not a pre-requisite for having a soul. What we do know is that in the Dragon Age Universe, just as in real life, we have neither a definition nor the means to define just what a soul exactly is.

 

------------------------

 

Of Noteon the topic of the Soul: According to the Chantry, the spirits of the Fade are considered soulless because they lack the 'ability to imagine or create, and thus could not emulate their creator'². The Chantry also states that the souls of dead pass through the Fade to the afterlife, and those non-virtuous get lost and consumed into nothingness. Meanwhile, Mortalitasi belief says that, when the souls of the dead cross over to the Fade, they displace a spirit³.

 

------------------------

 

^{1: The Taint}

 

^{2: Chantry Beliefs on Spirits}

 

^{3: Mortalitasi}

[Andraste_Reborn]

Since Mabari cannot use magic then they cannot have souls.

 

Does that mean ghasts have souls?

 

(Actually, that's a good question anyway.)

[Raiil]

Considering we don't know what gives us magical ability, I think the souls talk is generally nonsense.

 

 

 

If you have ever been a dog owner - you should know that dogs themselves are already highly intelligent. 

 

 

 

Some, maybe.

[catabuca]

I have my own mabari theory... on a tangent to this.

 

There is a tiny grain of truth to the song 'Andraste's Mabari' - it was Fen'harel. The story has been warped and altered and misremembered and what have you down the ages. But if we go with the whole Shartan being Fen'harel and Andraste being Mythal thing, then he was there. Ferelden's just jumped on the mabari thing because... well, Ferelden.

[Broganisity]

Considering we don't know what gives us magical ability, I think the souls talk is generally nonsense.

 

I agree, the concept of the soul is, over all, just something for people to quarrel about for a few hundred more generations.

If not the transference of a 'soul' to the Mabari, it could just be people turned into dogs or something.

[Raiil]

I agree, the concept of the soul is, over all, just something for people to quarrel about for a few hundred more generations.

If not the transference of a 'soul' to the Mabari, it could just be people turned into dogs or something.

 

 

Eh, it could be. It could also just be a naturally intelligent breed that was 'enhanced' via selective breeding, hard training, and a spot of magic on the side.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Just try having the real world equivalent of a Mabari in your home (A wolf/mastiff hybrid) or any 50% or more wolfdog for that matter. You will see that they do exist, no magic required and, if the three lounging at my feet now don't have souls then, neither do I. Intelligent, loyal, responsive, fast learners, sallwart companions and, not simple pets.

 

A dog will mature to mentally a pre teen or early teen, wolfdogs mature to adults. That's how mabari are too, a dog that grew up too much to be an average pet.

[Drasanil]

Mabari do not have souls. It is only suggested that magisters used blood magic on dogs, no actual proof. Just as there is no actual proof that Mabari are sentient. And even if they were, sentience does not imply the existence of a soul. A sentient computer is clearly soulless. A dog which is smarter than a normal dog isn't really all that different from an actual dog, it just has a bigger brain. Since Mabari cannot use magic then they cannot have souls.

 

I gave my Mabari magic via console commands  

[Broganisity]

I gave my Mabari magic via console commands  

Broganissity Greatly Approves