194 réponses à ce sujet

[Dermain]

This the truth. People react very strongly to going negative, like the message being conveyed indicates the company gets what you feel, as a disgruntled consumer. It develops instant affiliayion with the brand and product, because clearly they understand the concerns of the conquerors and would never duplicate the same mistakes or engage in the same practices.

The problem with "positive" marketing, of course, is what is NOT said. Omissions, implications and even unintentional customer expectations are all downfalls of promoting your product on its own merits (or perceived merits).

Negative marketing isn't inherently bad anymore than positive marketing is inherently good. It is merely another tool in the arsenal of a business.

 

Yay for psychologists getting involved in marketing... 

[Steelcan]

Speaking of positive marketing I decide to dust of Mass Effect 2 recently and I was watching some of there interviews that are on the bonus disc (that comes with the Collector Edition). Yeah, they were laying it on pretty thick but I don't believe it crossed there minds that in trying to streamline the RPG mechanics that they had actually pretty much gutted them. So its not like they were out right lying but were just really confident that they had nailed there design goal, probably overly confident.  

I doubt that kind of design change only happened accidentally, they had to realize they were cutting out weapon customization, the larger skill tree, etc...

[SlottsMachine]

Yeah, they were trying to streamline the experience and marketed it as such. The thing is you don't really know if you've cut too much until the game launches and you see the critical response. There is not a huge difference between ME2 and ME3 when it comes to skill trees its just ME3 has a few more options/choices. I thought they did a good job with it and I think that's what they were trying to achieve in ME2. 

[Aimi]

I doubt that kind of design change only happened accidentally, they had to realize they were cutting out weapon customization, the larger skill tree, etc...

Yes. They saw what they were doing, they understood how good of an idea it was, and they executed. Job well done, A+. Successfully added more diversity to playstyles and inventory while preventing both from being the pointless chores they were in the previous game, and the only people who complained were the ones who preferred the illusion of customization over the substance of it.

[Steelcan]

Yes. They saw what they were doing, they understood how good of an idea it was, and they executed. Job well done, A+. Successfully added more diversity to playstyles and inventory while preventing both from being the pointless chores they were in the previous game, and the only people who complained were the ones who preferred the illusion of customization over the substance of it.

I think they may have been overzealous in their pruning, especially when it came to powers but point taken

 

As for armor and weapon customization, I'm partial to the ME3 system overall where there are a reduced and much more streamlined number of mods and armors are broken up to be almost entirely cosmetic.

[Fast Jimmy]

Speaking of positive marketing I decide to dust of Mass Effect 2 recently and I was watching some of there interviews that are on the bonus disc (that comes with the Collector Edition). Yeah, they were laying it on pretty thick but I don't believe it crossed there minds that in trying to streamline the RPG mechanics that they had actually pretty much gutted them. So its not like they were out right lying but were just really confident that they had nailed there design goal, probably overly confident.

And that is the other thing - being oblivious to a game's flaws until the masses get a hold of it. The same thing happened with DA2 - they didn't set out to make a rushed game, but they got so focused on the game they thought they were making in their own heads that they didn't realize it was still very unpolished until it was out the door.

[Fast Jimmy]

Yay for psychologists getting involved in marketing...

Psychologists have been involved with Marketing the entire 20th century. From war bonds to cigarettes - people have been using the science of how people think to sell them things for quite some time now.

[Dermain]

Psychologists have been involved with Marketing the entire 20th century. From war bonds to cigarettes - people have been using the science of how people think to sell them things for quite some time now.

 

I am well aware. I just find it distasteful for my fellows to waste their talents on it. It's a bit predatory to convince people that they need something they don't really need.

[KotorEffect3]

 

 

Stupid Cersei

[spirosz]

And that is the other thing - being oblivious to a game's flaws until the masses get a hold of it. The same thing happened with DA2 - they didn't set out to make a rushed game, but they got so focused on the game they thought they were making in their own heads that they didn't realize it was still very unpolished until it was out the door.

 

That's the thing I don't understand.  Aren't game testers supposed to point out flaws like that? "Hey your game feels... unfinished, might want to look into that."  I understand if it's too late in the development cycle and the publishers are really wanting to push the game out, but.. I don't think the developers can be that oblivious to certain elements of their own game.  

[Fast Jimmy]

That's the thing I don't understand. Aren't game testers supposed to point out flaws like that? "Hey your game feels... unfinished, might want to look into that." I understand if it's too late in the development cycle and the publishers are really wanting to push the game out, but.. I don't think the developers can be that oblivious to certain elements of their own game.

Well, early after release, when the first flood of complaints about the PC UI first came to light, Allan said he was one of the testing team people who signed off on the PC controls and UI, stating something along the lines of how he normally tested games with a controller and never found a problem.

Allan is no RPG or tactical slouch - his X-Com Let's Play and his bank of previous RPG games played is a testament to that. I just think the testing plan laid out for the QA team didn't specify PC controls to be something to really test in specific detail. "Can you use the KB+M? you can? Okay - cross it off the checklist."

QA can't guide the design of the game. Even when they are involved early, they see the game as bare bones and crappy, devoid of all UI, graphics, most content and nearly all features. Seeing it improved in installments makes it easy to miss the forest for the trees unless you are specifically intending on focusing on certain aspects. I'd blame the project management team before blaming QA.

[Fast Jimmy]

I am well aware. I just find it distasteful for my fellows to waste their talents on it. It's a bit predatory to convince people that they need something they don't really need.

The vast majority of our economy is based on people buying things they don't need.

People are going to be spending their money on silly things that aren't vital to their survival, no matter what. Pre-industrial times, this was usually limited to drinking and whoring. Nowadays, it includes video games, where you can get drunk and sleep with prostitutes. PROGRESS!

[SlottsMachine]

That's the thing I don't understand.  Aren't game testers supposed to point out flaws like that? "Hey your game feels... unfinished, might want to look into that."  I understand if it's too late in the development cycle and the publishers are really wanting to push the game out, but.. I don't think the developers can be that oblivious to certain elements of their own game.  

 

LOL. That might be how you become a former play tester. "Yo, why'd you have me go to the same cave five times?"

[spirosz]

Well, early after release, when the first flood of complaints about the PC UI first came to light, Allan said he was one of the testing team people who signed off on the PC controls and UI, stating something along the lines of how he normally tested games with a controller and never found a problem.

Allan is no RPG or tactical slouch - his X-Com Let's Play and his bank of previous RPG games played is a testament to that. I just think the testing plan laid out for the QA team didn't specify PC controls to be something to really test in specific detail. "Can you use the KB+M? you can? Okay - cross it off the checklist."

QA can't guide the design of the game. Even when they are involved early, they see the game as bare bones and crappy, devoid of all UI, graphics, most content and nearly all features. Seeing it improved in installments makes it easy to miss the forest for the trees unless you are specifically intending on focusing on certain aspects. I'd blame the project management team before blaming QA.

 

I'm not blaming QA, I'm just not fully grasping how developers ignore or not realize certain flaws in their development of their own title.  I understand what you mean, but shouldn't it be fair to make sure that the PC community is getting the same amount of attention, in regards to how the controls will work, etc, when it is also being developed for them?  

 

It's like I'm expecting every single game released since 2014 to have a patch to "fix" these aspects because it seems like a very common trend lately.  

[Eternal Phoenix]

I still blame this guy for fetch quests...

 

 

[spirosz]

Also anyway, I'll stay away from making this off topic, but I highly doubt their won't be any "Fetch Quests" - they'll just make it have the illusion that they don't fall in the same category as said "fetching".  As Broom stated as well... in regards to the whole Witcher aspect, I found it neat going off and hunting the monsters because well, it's basically what they do, so in a sense, that is a form of a fetch quest, just in more relation to what the Witcher's do.  Though, I doubt with what's going on in that world, Geralt will have much time to go find "X" for "x".  We'll see when the game is released.  

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm not blaming QA, I'm just not fully grasping how developers ignore or not realize certain flaws in their development of their own title. I understand what you mean, but shouldn't it be fair to make sure that the PC community is getting the same amount of attention, in regards to how the controls will work, etc, when it is also being developed for them?

It's like I'm expecting every single game released since 2014 to have a patch to "fix" these aspects because it seems like a very common trend lately.

<shrug> I hear ya clucking, big chicken. I just ain't the one laying that egg.

[Fast Jimmy]

Also anyway, I'll stay away from making this off topic, but I highly doubt their won't be any "Fetch Quests" - they'll just make it have the illusion that they don't fall in the same category as said "fetching". As Broom stated as well... in regards to the whole Witcher aspect, I found it neat going off and hunting the monsters because well, it's basically what they do, so in a sense, that is a form of a fetch quest, just in more relation to what the Witcher's do. Though, I doubt with what's going on in that world, Geralt will have much time to go find "X" for "x". We'll see when the game is released.

Agreed - it will have fetch quests. But maybe they will be interesting fetch quests instead of "laundry list of things to do" fetch quests.

DA:O had a quest that was "get quest from chick, walk 20 feet away into house, find kid hidden in closet, get sword, return to chick, ask to borrow sword for fight, win fight, return sword." All of it happens within forty feet of each other. Yet the quest was cool, because you felt you were carrying on an adventuring legacy and it even results in an epilogue slide if you do the right things, talking about how you inspired the boy to become and adventurer.

Non-linearity, good writing and conversation options can go MILES in making a fetch quest not feel like a fetch quest.

[In Exile]

Well, early after release, when the first flood of complaints about the PC UI first came to light, Allan said he was one of the testing team people who signed off on the PC controls and UI, stating something along the lines of how he normally tested games with a controller and never found a problem.

Allan is no RPG or tactical slouch - his X-Com Let's Play and his bank of previous RPG games played is a testament to that. I just think the testing plan laid out for the QA team didn't specify PC controls to be something to really test in specific detail. "Can you use the KB+M? you can? Okay - cross it off the checklist."

QA can't guide the design of the game. Even when they are involved early, they see the game as bare bones and crappy, devoid of all UI, graphics, most content and nearly all features. Seeing it improved in installments makes it easy to miss the forest for the trees unless you are specifically intending on focusing on certain aspects. I'd blame the project management team before blaming QA.

 

It's more than that. Because if I had tested the KBM for DA:I while I would have had some issues with how some features were implement I would never, in a million years, have identified any of the most hated features of it. And I played DAO and DA2 exclusively on nightmare on KBM. 

[Fast Jimmy]

It's more than that. Because if I had tested the KBM for DA:I while I would have had some issues with how some features were implement I would never, in a million years, have identified any of the most hated features of it. And I played DAO and DA2 exclusively on nightmare on KBM. 

 

What wouldn't you have identified? The lack of tac cam zoom height? The lack of auto-attack? The lack of mousebinding? The lack of click-to-move (or the requirement of WASD ONLY to move)? The lack of point-to-loot (let alone a "loot-all" button)? The lack of more than eight abilities?

 

I can get some of the more detailed issues, but I don't see how you could do something like any sort of free-range grinding and not feel these issues. I find it hard to believe anyone tested a "collect 20 eflroot" quest and didn't say "man, having to walk over to that root, stand directly over it, then click on it to pick something up twenty times is kind of a pain in the butt."