21 réponses à ce sujet

[Cody2Hottie]

I mean the Soldier already has so much ammo in his talents so would it be redundant having another? I know it's good but that would mean I'll just be ignoring all of the other talents.

[cap and gown]

Why do you think Warp ammo is so great? How many barriers do you run into? Are your team mates constantly lifting targets that you then shoot? Wouldn't it be better to  go for a Warp Combo than shooting the lifted target?

 

I think it is time for me to start a thread comparing Warp ammo to Armor piercing. I have been meaning to do that anyway ever since RedCeasar commented on one of my videos that I would be better using Warp ammo rather than Armor piercing (playing as an Adept). I initially agreed, but now I am not so sure.

[DeckardWasAReplicant]

Its great for the Collector missions. But I never take it on my Soldier.

[Cody2Hottie]

Why do you think Warp ammo is so great? How many barriers do you run into? Are your team mates constantly lifting targets that you then shoot? Wouldn't it be better to  go for a Warp Combo than shooting the lifted target?

 

I think it is time for me to start a thread comparing Warp ammo to Armor piercing. I have been meaning to do that anyway ever since RedCeasar commented on one of my videos that I would be better using Warp ammo rather than Armor piercing (playing as an Adept). I initially agreed, but now I am not so sure.

I only think it's so great cause every site I go onto , to help me pick which bonus power I should pick for my soldier says it's great. Anyway how is AP so good? doesn't that much my Inferno rounds redundant?

[RedCaesar97]

I would not say it is redundant, but I would say that it is not as good as the other ammo powers you already have.

 

 

In terms of damage, Warp Ammo does not provide much more that you already have. All damage ammo powers deal to protections or health is calculated off the base weapon damage. So as you gain weapon damage through mods, armor, and passive bonuses, the fraction of ammo power damage becomes much less in the total weapon damage you are dealing. And when damaging protections, certain weapons also have damage bonuses to certain defenses, so that fraction is even less.

 

For example, say you have Heavy Warp Ammo (+50% damage to health, barriers, and armor). And to make the math easier, let's say you have an assault rifle that deals 10 damage per bullet. That means Warp Ammo will deal 5 damage. But now let's say you have the following:

 - 2 assault rifle damage upgrades (+20% damage or +2 damage)

 - The assault rifle mod that deals 25% extra damage to all defenses (a 1.25 multiplier). If your assault rifle already deals +25% damage to all defenses, then it will now deal +50% damage to all defenses (a 1.5 multiplier)

 - You have +20% damage from armor and class passive (+2 damage)

 

In the above example, your gun is now dealing (10 + 2 + 2) x 1.5 damage to defenses = 14 x 1.5 = 21 damage to defenses. Warp Ammo is still dealing only 5 damage to defenses so you are dealing 26 damage total to armor or barrier.

 

 

Now, Warp Ammo provides no crowd control. Compare that to your other ammo powers:

 - Incendiary Ammo can panic most organics, and can prevent Krogan and Vorcha health regeneration

 - Disruptor Ammo can stun synthetic enemies and overheat enemy weapons

 - Cryo Ammo can freeze enemies, and can also prevent health regeneration

 

This is why most players prefer using the native ammo powers instead of the bonus ammo powers (Warp Ammo, AP Ammo, Shredder Ammo). The extra damage is hardly worth it (except against health) and the crowd control of native ammo powers is generally better.

 

 

Now, the one thing Warp Ammo does well is provide extra damage to lifted enemies: 2x damage listed. so if Heavy Warp Ammo deals +50% to health/armor/barriers, it will deal +100% damage to lifted enemies. That is in addition to the +100% damage you already get from shooting lifted enemies.

 

 

So if you are bringing Jack, Samara, or Jacob everywhere with you, the Warp is good. Or if you have the Widow and want to one-shot some basic barriered enemies (Collector Troopers, some Eclipse mercs on Samara's recruitment mission) outside of Adrenaline Rush, then it is a good option. If you are using the Revenant or Claymore, its utility is much less.

[cap and gown]

I only think it's so great cause every site I go onto , to help me pick which bonus power I should pick for my soldier says it's great. Anyway how is AP so good? doesn't that much my Inferno rounds redundant?

 

Well, on a Soldier I would never pick an ammo power as a bonus. I think 1 point in Slam could work, but really, all I ever really focused on as a Soldier was using Adrenaline Rush over and over. Any time I wasn't using Adrenaline Rush was when I was cooling down from Adrenaline Rush and waiting to use it again.

 

As for CC for the Soldier, I would shoot for (final build) Inferno Ammo, Squad Cryo, Squad Dispruptor.

[capn233]

For most soldier setups, yes.  Barrier heavy missions are going to be Eclipse or Collectors, both of which are vulnerable to squad Cryo and Inferno.  The mechs in Eclipse missions are also vulnerable to Disruptor if you are so inclined (they might be more annoying than the units with barriers in Eclipse missions, worth considering).

 

The one possible exception may be some Widow Soldier setups, but I don't remember where the damage breaks are.

[sjsharp2011]

Well, on a Soldier I would never pick an ammo power as a bonus. I think 1 point in Slam could work, but really, all I ever really focused on as a Soldier was using Adrenaline Rush over and over. Any time I wasn't using Adrenaline Rush was when I was cooling down from Adrenaline Rush and waiting to use it again.
 
As for CC for the Soldier, I would shoot for (final build) Inferno Ammo, Squad Cryo, Squad Dispruptor.

neither would I but only because you already have 3 ammo choices already to use in Incendiary/Cryo and Disrupter Ammo you don't need any moer options as for me that's just a waste of your xp points for that playthrough. I normally go with Inferno grenade when playing ME2/3 or a an extra tech power maybe something like Geth shield boost or something to bolster shields more. I only use the extra ammo options when playing as a non soldier type class as you don't have any options then and I do find having at least 1 useful. But that is only if I'm playing as character that doesn't have these. As a soldier you already have 3 so don't really need to add nore

[God]

Not really redundant so much as a bit nonsensical. I mean, technically speaking, Warp ammo is a biotic talent. 

 

I go with Armor Piercing ammo instead.

[RanetheViking]

I'd go with another Bonus Power that's not an ammo power on the Soldier. Like Slam. 

 

On the Soldier I prefer Inferno Ammo on him and I usually Retrain my points for the Geth missions, like Tali's recruitment and take Heavy Disruptor. If I haven't got enough to max both out at the time.

 

You could take the 'Squad' evo's too, but I personally don't.

[Fidite Nemini]

Warp ammo isn't worth it. It might look mighty on paper, but the actual benefits are smaller than you might suspect as RedCaeser97 explained and the only enemy faction that you can consistently trigger all the bonus damage are the Collectors.

 

Now, if you want the raw OSK potential with a Widow SR soldier, then using Warp ammo can be useful at higher difficulties as the bonus damage to Barriers, Armor and Health will bleed through the defenses, making OSKs possible that would otherwise leave a target barely alive (Incendiary ammo for example will not proc the CC and bonus damage on health/armor if the target still had shield or barrier).

 

I would still say that the Flashbang Grenade is the best bonus power for a soldier even against Collectors as a single Flashbang can render Harby useless for a looong time, time during which you can calmly decimate the other Collectors until only Harby is left, meaning you won't have to deal with harby constantly possessing another Collector after you killed him.

Flashbang Grenade also simply fits better from a roleplaying standpoint if you're averse to using a biotic power on a non-biotic class.

[sjsharp2011]

Not really redundant so much as a bit nonsensical. I mean, technically speaking, Warp ammo is a biotic talent. 
 
I go with Armor Piercing ammo instead.

Yeah I only tend dto go with Warp Ammo when playing as a biotic

[RedCaesar97]

Not really redundant so much as a bit nonsensical. I mean, technically speaking, Warp ammo is a biotic talent. 

 

How is it a biotic talent? No one said it had to be Shepard making Warp ammo; it could be mass produced through an Asari factory for all we know.

 

Also: Warp Ammo is listed as a weapon talent by the developers here.

[Fidite Nemini]

How is it a biotic talent? No one said it had to be Shepard making Warp ammo; it could be mass produced through an Asari factory for all we know.

 

Also: Warp Ammo is listed as a weapon talent by the developers here.

 

Considering how ammo powers work (by applying the effect to the standard projectile shaved off the metal block that functions as ammunition reservoir) and that biotics require a biological component, I don't see how Warp ammo could be considered as merely special ammunition to be produced, stored and distributed.

 

 

I don't recall any point where it actually explains how it works, so both of us are technically wrong as we can't prove otherwise, but given how Jack, the most powerful human biotic ever has gotten this power as her stand-out bonus power, it does imply that it is a biotic skill, not a technical one. How the game's mechanics handle the assignment of power modifiers is not telling as to how they would or should be classified within the lore of the game.

[Vazgen]

Considering how ammo powers work (by applying the effect to the standard projectile shaved off the metal block that functions as ammunition reservoir) and that biotics require a biological component, I don't see how Warp ammo could be considered as merely special ammunition to be produced, stored and distributed.

 

 

I don't recall any point where it actually explains how it works, so both of us are technically wrong as we can't prove otherwise, but given how Jack, the most powerful human biotic ever has gotten this power as her stand-out bonus power, it does imply that it is a biotic skill, not a technical one. How the game's mechanics handle the assignment of power modifiers is not telling as to how they would or should be classified within the lore of the game.

Lore-wise Warp Ammo doesn't make sense.

I can see how it might work - projectiles wrapped in a mass effect field that increases their mass giving bonus damage to armor and barriers (due to the clash of two fields, like mini-Warp). But I have no idea how individual projectiles are wrapped in those fields. It should be something done by a gun IMO.

[capn233]

How is it a biotic talent? No one said it had to be Shepard making Warp ammo; it could be mass produced through an Asari factory for all we know.

 

Also: Warp Ammo is listed as a weapon talent by the developers here.

 

It isn't biotic for the purposes of bonuses, but I lump it in with biotics in ME2 since it is only available on Jack.  I suppose you could say that she is a Vanguard.  The description implies that the user is the one imparting the warp field on the ammo.

[Jukaga]

I hope they scrap ammo powers for ME4 and go back to the ME1 system which made much more sense, both lore-wise and in-game.

[cap and gown]

I hope they scrap ammo powers for ME4 and go back to the ME1 system which made much more sense, both lore-wise and in-game.

 

Question is: what would they do with the Soldier who is practically defined by ammo powers?

 

A partial answer would probably be to get rid of one power altogether for all classes. Maybe give the Soldier exclusive access to Grenades, perhaps even multiple types of grenades. Maybe make Marksman and Adrenaline Rush more integrated.

 

Added: Also, I would NOT do it like ME1. Rather I would do it like ME3MP where you select an ammo type at the beginning of a mission and perhaps be able to change it during the mission at selected work benches. Perhaps ammo might even be one use as in MP.

[KotorEffect3]

For a soldier I would invest in something more defensive like fortification.  The soldier already has plenty of offensive firepower with the different ammo types (big fan of incendiary ammo, though I do like to use the cryo on the sniper rifle) not to mention he also has adrenaline rush and concussive shot at his disposal.  Doing a trilogy run with a soldier and fortification got me through ME 2 just fine and so far it has mostly kept me alive in ME 3.  Playing on hardcore difficulty and havn't had too much trouble staying alive.

[wakizashi]

Question is: what would they do with the Soldier who is practically defined by ammo powers?

 

A partial answer would probably be to get rid of one power altogether for all classes. Maybe give the Soldier exclusive access to Grenades, perhaps even multiple types of grenades. Maybe make Marksman and Adrenaline Rush more integrated.

 

Added: Also, I would NOT do it like ME1. Rather I would do it like ME3MP where you select an ammo type at the beginning of a mission and perhaps be able to change it during the mission at selected work benches. Perhaps ammo might even be one use as in MP.

 

You answered it yourself, make grenades soldier exclusive. Grenades made ME3 caster classes overpowered. Between my sentinel and Javik I can toss a minimum of 12 lift grenades per mission (not including other team member). The only mission I needed that many grenades on insanity was the missile section Earth II and maybe some sections of Leviathan but that is stretching it.

 

All ME games have redundant skills for some classes (even ME2) so I'm also ok with taking out a skill from each class. Cryo blast and throw perform similar roles, as do shockwave/throw or singularity/pull.

 

The only thing I do like about ammo powers is that it sometimes forces you to use squadmates you would never use, so it pulls you out of your comfort zone. As someone who only invests in a bonus ammo power after I have maxed out more important defense stripping or survivability powers I think I would never have used Jack on the Collector Ship had she not had warp ammo - or Jacob on Mordin's recruitment had he not had incendiary ammo. But that is a weak argument in favor of ammo powers.

[RedCaesar97]

For a soldier I would invest in something more defensive like fortification.  The soldier already has plenty of offensive firepower with the different ammo types (big fan of incendiary ammo, though I do like to use the cryo on the sniper rifle) not to mention he also has adrenaline rush and concussive shot at his disposal.  Doing a trilogy run with a soldier and fortification got me through ME 2 just fine and so far it has mostly kept me alive in ME 3.  Playing on hardcore difficulty and havn't had too much trouble staying alive.

 

Fortification is the worst of the shield powers in ME2 since it does not benefit from either the Tech Cooldown upgrade or the Biotic Cooldown upgrade. And since the Soldier has no native cooldown bonuses in its passive, then Fortification always has a 12-second cooldown.

 

With the cooldown upgrade (and if you have cooldown bonuses in your passive), then Barrier is the best option since you can activate it without a casting animation.

 

But on the Soldier, Adrenaline Rush as a 3-second cooldown at rank 3. Hard to justify a 12-second cooldown power as a bonus power.

 

(And I should note that I used Fortification a lot on my very first playthrough with the Soldier on class; it was my very first playthrough in ME2 and it was on Normal difficulty. That decision looks really dumb now as I look back on it. Not sure if it was the dumbest decision I ever made in ME2.)

[KotorEffect3]

Fortification is the worst of the shield powers in ME2 since it does not benefit from either the Tech Cooldown upgrade or the Biotic Cooldown upgrade. And since the Soldier has no native cooldown bonuses in its passive, then Fortification always has a 12-second cooldown.

 

With the cooldown upgrade (and if you have cooldown bonuses in your passive), then Barrier is the best option since you can activate it without a casting animation.

 

But on the Soldier, Adrenaline Rush as a 3-second cooldown at rank 3. Hard to justify a 12-second cooldown power as a bonus power.

 

(And I should note that I used Fortification a lot on my very first playthrough with the Soldier on class; it was my very first playthrough in ME2 and it was on Normal difficulty. That decision looks really dumb now as I look back on it. Not sure if it was the dumbest decision I ever made in ME2.)

I won't put barrier on a soldier for RP reasons.  Won't use a biotic bonus on a non biotic class.  Just a personal rule I have for myself.  I can however justify using a tech bonus since anyone can learn to do things with omni tools.  I found fortification to be a good "oh crap" button if I was about to die.  Kept me alive a few times.  Also if you are familiar with the game and know the level layout and know when enemies will spawn you can time it so that you activate it real quick between encounters so even with the long cooldown timer you can have it recharged by the time you start fighting again if you get the timing right.  Of course what I said only applies to a person who has done multiple playthroughs and knows when and where enemies will spawn. 

 

If I were to apply a tech bonus to a soldier it would be shield drain, might be a tech bonus but still fits a combat class quite well.