48 réponses à ce sujet

[cap and gown]

RedCeasar commented on one of my videos where I was fighting the Blue Suns on Korlus that I would be better off using Warp Ammo rather than Armor piercing. At first I was inclined to agree, but I have come to doubt that Warp Ammo would be better than Armor Piercing except when fighting Collectors and the Eclipse on Samara's recruitment.

 

Here are the stats:

Rank 1: Warp 15%; Armor 30%

Rank 2: Warp 25%; Armor 40%

Rank 3: Warp 35%; Armor 50%

Rank 4: Heavy Warp 50%; Tungsten 70%

 

At Rank 1 Warp Ammo only matches Armor Piercing when shooting a lifted target.

At Rank 2 the bonus is only 10%

At Rank 3 the bonus is 20%

At Rank 4 the bonus is 30%

 

Meanwhile, until the target is lifted Armor Piercing is doing 15% more damage for ranks 1-3 and 20% more damage for Rank 4.

 

Once a target is lifted, rather than shooting it, it would be much better to hit it with a Throw or Warp. The only reason to shoot it is because these powers are currently on cool down.

 

On the whole, it seems to me that Armor Piercing is going to be generally more useful except on a few select missions where most of the enemies you run into are protected by Barriers.

 

[sjsharp2011]

I personally would make the decision based on what class you are though and what you prefer to do. if I'm playing as a Biotic. I'd use Warp Ammo. If I'm a tech specialist I'd go armour piercing especially as you can drain shields and stuff by using Overload anyway which is an ability you have as a tech.

[RedCaesar97]

One thing you are overlooking is that the damage dealt by ammo powers is based off of the base weapon damage, not the total weapon damage.

 

So if you want to compare Heavy Warp Ammo (+50% to health/armor/barrier) to Tungsten (+70% to armor/health):

 

Now let's say you have an assault rifle with the following characteristics:

 - 10 damage per bullet

 - 25% more damage to armor/shields/barriers (a 1.25 damage multiplier)

 - 2 damage upgrades (+20% damage, or +2 damage)

 - +20% damage from passive and armor (+2 damage)

 - The piercing upgrade that deals 25% more damage to armor/shields/barriers. This increases the multiplier from 1.25 to 1.5.

 

Since the weapon deals 10 damage per bullet, Heavy Warp will deal 5 damage and Tungsten will deal 7 damage.

 

Against health, the weapon will deal (10 + 2 + 2) damage, or 14 damage.

So with Warp Ammo, you will deal a total of 19 damage.

With Tungsten Ammo, you will deal a total of 21 damage.

 

Now if you are shooting armor, then the weapon will deal (10 + 2 + 2) x 1.5 damage, or

 = 14 x 1.5

 = 21 damage

With Warp Ammo you will deal a total of 26 total damage.

With Tungsten Ammo you will deal a total of 28 total damage.

 

Supposedly Ammo Powers get distance modifiers like weapons do, so the percentage of damage stays the same.

Headshots grant extra weapon damage (+50% damage to +100% damage depending on weapons and research upgrades) which ammo powers do not get.

 

 

 

As for damage versus lifted enemies: 

 - weapons gain +100% damage to lifted enemies (I think that is off weapon base damage and it is additive)

 - Warp Ammo deals extra damage to lifted enemies as well, 2x listed damage in rank. So if Heavy Warp Ammo deals +50% damage to health/armor/barriers, then it will deal +100% damage to lifted enemies.

 

So against lifted enemies, the example assault rifle stats used above will deal (10 + 2 + 2 + 10) damage, or 24 damage to the lifted enemy. Warp Ammo will deal an additional +10 damage for total 34 damage.

With Tungsten in the same scenario it will deal 31 total damage.

 

 

 

This is why ammo powers are at their best early game with no upgrades, but are increasingly less useful as you gain upgrades.

 

 

Most assault rifles deal something like 10-20 base damage. Vindicator deals something like 30-40 base damage. Mattock deals something like 50-60 base damage.

SMGs deal something like 15-25 base damage.

Widow deals something like 300 damage?

 

I had a link to a weapon damage stat sheet at one point, but the link no longer works; the guide must have been taken down or something.

[RedCaesar97]

The weapon data chart I used to look at occasionally is apparently gone.

 

I did find this page, which does have some damage data: http://www.playstati...pons-guide.html. Click the Spoiler! (click here to reveal) links on that page to show the weapon stats.

 

No idea how accurate those numbers are.

[cap and gown]

I personally would make the decision based on what class you are though and what you prefer to do. if I'm playing as a Biotic. I'd use Warp Ammo. If I'm a tech specialist I'd go armour piercing especially as you can drain shields and stuff by using Overload anyway which is an ability you have as a tech.

 

Well, I am not all that good, so when I play on insanity I don't have the luxury of RPing my power set or companion choices. I need to min-max just to survive. Already in my Engineer play through I have managed to die an average of once each mission. Surprisingly, I didn't die at all on the Archangel mission. I usually get tripped up on either the Blood Pack or Blue Suns portion of that mission. But I did die fighting Geth on Canalus which was really disappointing since I almost never die fighting Geth.

[sjsharp2011]

Well, I am not all that good, so when I play on insanity I don't have the luxury of RPing my power set or companion choices. I need to min-max just to survive. Already in my Engineer play through I have managed to die an average of once each mission. Surprisingly, I didn't die at all on the Archangel mission. I usually get tripped up on either the Blood Pack or Blue Suns portion of that mission. But I did die fighting Geth on Canalus which was really disappointing since I almost never die fighting Geth.

Yeah I usually find the Garrus mission quite challenging too. I almost always get killed at least once or twice when bringing those shutters down so I know what you mean even though I domn't play at that level. Although having said that in the playthrough I'm doing atm I breezed through the mission without dying for once. I did get nuked a couple of times by the Geth cannon before eventually taking it out in Overlord and again twice on the firewalker mission by a Colossus so far those are the only times so far that I have been hit though so I'd say I'g oing pretty well atm.

The only time I find Geth hard is on ME1 really when I have to take on those Armature/Colossus class units on foot as they're a big pain in the ass. Taking them on in the Mako is fine but on foot can be trouble. I can do it though. It's just one of the more challenging aspects of the first game.

But then all 3 games have some challenging moments and enemies. The Banshee's and Brutes in ME3 are quite challenging. I also find the Ymir mechs Scions and Praetorians flying enemies that shoot beams out their eyes (Collector enemies)I think they're called in ME2 tough I love the nuclear explosion when you take off the Ymir heads though. Also the geth Cannon on the Overlord DLC have to cheat to get past that. Fortunately it's the only time I feel the need to do that though as I think Bioware made it unnecessarily overpowered. in general though aside from that though it's pretty well balanced For the most part though I think it's because they're boss ceratures anyway so they should be tougher so I don't really have any complaints other than the Geth cannon really.

[Vazgen]

I only used Warp Ammo as a bonus power once, for one shotting Collectors with Widow My current build borrows it from Jack.

I died a lot on Horizon, Collector Ship, Tali's loyalty mission and Suicide Mission specialist escort. Mostly because my build was not very damaging - Engineer with Avenger, Predator and Locust, Overload, Inferno Grenade and AI Hacking as only used powers. I also did not research any health upgrades. 

Surprisingly I didn't die on Miranda's loyalty mission and Grunt's recruitment which I traditionally have troubles with.

[cap and gown]

Also the geth Cannon on the Overlord DLC have to cheat to get past that. Fortunately it's the only time I feel the need to do that though as I think Bioware made it unnecessarily overpowered. in general though aside from that though it's pretty well balanced For the most part though I think it's because they're boss ceratures anyway so they should be tougher so I don't really have any complaints other than the Geth cannon really.

 

Many people have reported problems dealing with the Geth Cannon. I wonder if it is because the controls are different on the PC? First time I played it I had problems because I didn't understand what was going on. Once I figured it out, though, I found it to be not much of a problem. But since I play on xbox, maybe the controls for the Hammerhead are just easier to use.

[Vazgen]

Many people have reported problems dealing with the Geth Cannon. I wonder if it is because the controls are different on the PC? First time I played it I had problems because I didn't understand what was going on. Once I figured it out, though, I found it to be not much of a problem. But since I play on xbox, maybe the controls for the Hammerhead are just easier to use.

People have problems with the Geth Cannon?

[cap and gown]

People have problems with the Geth Cannon?

 

 

http://forum.bioware...th-cannon-help/

 

http://forum.bioware...t-overlord-dlc/

[Vazgen]

http://forum.bioware...th-cannon-help/

 

http://forum.bioware...t-overlord-dlc/

Interesting. I used the cannon to take down shield pylons for me the first time I played

[sjsharp2011]

I just use an easy kills cheat I got from a cheat site it's the only way I could get psat it. But then having only one hand on the controls does make it much harder I think too. If I had 2 hands on the controls I doubt I'd have too much of a problem I like the rest of the level it's just that one shot kill cannon that does me in. It just turns the cannon into a bit more like a more conventional enemy. it can still one shot me but it gives me a chance to get it before it eventually nails me.

[sjsharp2011]

Interesting. I used the cannon to take down shield pylons for me the first time I played

I tried that when I first up against but it still kept getting me. At least I have a way of dealing with it that works anyway. TBH that's all I really need

[Vazgen]

I tried that when I first up against but it still kept getting me. At least I have a way of dealing with it that works anyway. TBH that's all I really need

I used the same tactic on the Rannoch Reaper The moment it aims at me I just run to the opposite side of the area. I don't even bother with rolling/using thrusters. Not as stylish as dodging a Reaper laser with a well-timed roll but it's a lot safer

[sjsharp2011]

I used the same tactic on the Rannoch Reaper The moment it aims at me I just run to the opposite side of the area. I don't even bother with rolling/using thrusters. Not as stylish as dodging a Reaper laser with a well-timed roll but it's a lot safer

Same here I use that tactic on the reaper but it works for me there it just doesn't work with the geth cannon

[a_mouse]

Returning to original topic, the only thing I would add is my opinion that the value of "damage enhancing" ammo powers (shredder, warp, and AP) generally pale in comparison to the "immobilizing" ammo powers (disruptor, incendiary, and especially cryo).  In my experience the immobilization effect helps suppress enemy fire, creates opportunities to maneuver, and adds a crowd-control factor that far outweighs the value of increased damage (especially mid-late game where as RedCaeser points out there is a law of diminishing returns on the damage bonus).

 

Sadly, the only ammo powers available as a bonus are damage enhancing.  Thus for soldiers, infiltrator, and vanguards there is little motivation for ever taking an ammo power as a bonus.  But even for sentinels, adepts, and engineers, I think it's almost always better to take a non-ammo bonus power, and then use squad incendiary or disruptor off a squad mate. 

[sjsharp2011]

Returning to original topic, the only thing I would add is my opinion that the value of "damage enhancing" ammo powers (shredder, warp, and AP) generally pale in comparison to the "immobilizing" ammo powers (disruptor, incendiary, and especially cryo).  In my experience the immobilization effect helps suppress enemy fire, creates opportunities to maneuver, and adds a crowd-control factor that far outweighs the value of increased damage (especially mid-late game where as RedCaeser points out there is a law of diminishing returns on the damage bonus).
 
Sadly, the only ammo powers available as a bonus are damage enhancing.  Thus for soldiers, infiltrator, and vanguards there is little motivation for ever taking an ammo power as a bonus.  But even for sentinels, adepts, and engineers, I think it's almost always better to take a non-ammo bonus power, and then use squad incendiary or disruptor off a squad mate.

I personally prefer to have at least 1 ammo power but only turn to the bonus ones if I'm not a soldier class

[RedCaesar97]

Sadly, the only ammo powers available as a bonus are damage enhancing.  Thus for soldiers, infiltrator, and vanguards there is little motivation for ever taking an ammo power as a bonus.  But even for sentinels, adepts, and engineers, I think it's almost always better to take a non-ammo bonus power, and then use squad incendiary or disruptor off a squad mate. 

 

I would say for Soldiers and Infiltrators, the only motivation would be to take Warp Ammo if you are using the Widow and want to one-shot barriered/armored enemies outside of Cloak or Adrenaline Rush. This is similar to one-shotting shielded enemies with the Widow using Disruptor Ammo.

[sjsharp2011]

I would say for Soldiers and Infiltrators, the only motivation would be to take Warp Ammo if you are using the Widow and want to one-shot barriered/armored enemies outside of Cloak or Adrenaline Rush. This is similar to one-shotting shielded enemies with the Widow using Disruptor Ammo.

TBH disruptor Ammo has the same effect anyway in those cases so again it's pretty redundant I think.

[a_mouse]

I would say for Soldiers and Infiltrators, the only motivation would be to take Warp Ammo if you are using the Widow and want to one-shot barriered/armored enemies outside of Cloak or Adrenaline Rush. This is similar to one-shotting shielded enemies with the Widow using Disruptor Ammo.

Fair point.  If sniping, any small increment in damage that makes the difference between leaving a sliver of health vs. one-shotting an enemy has much greater qualitative value than the % increase in damage.  But I assume that must have been worked out by players a long time ago., i.e. rifle/upgrade/ammo combinations that can one-shot particular enemies with full protection.  Red, do you have any links to that kind of data?

[capn233]

ryoldschool did a Soldier Widow Sniper test, but he took down his ME2 vids from youtube.  In any case, here was the description though:

 

Well, Red got me thinking today and so I did one of my experiments to test out warp ammo on the widow.

...

Basically, at level 19, on Insanity, with 3 sniper upgrades, 8% equipment weapon damage pieces, headshot visor, with Miranda in party ( passive evolved to 15% squad weapon damage ) the widow cannot one-shot a vanguard elite.

There is an elite at the beginning of Samara's RM that I used for this test.  Warp Ammo makes a real difference, but as you can see, still a long way from one-shotting a vanguard elite. 

 

These were elites, which can be problematic.  Then there is the issue of what upgrades you have at what level, since that will skew it.  What level of sniper upgrades available at which point depend on the mission order and DLC.  I don't remember what evolutions he had, or if ARush was active at the time though.  I personally haven't played a Widow soldier since 2010, so my memory is a bit rusty on the topic.  edit: Arush active did leave them with some health even with WA, and I assume he was using Heightened.

 

The biggest hurdle with theorycrafting in ME2 was the enemy HP scaling, which wasn't really nailed down.  And I have seen it reported two different ways: enemy HP actually scales up with level or Shepard / squad damage is *reduced* per level with a multiplier (these are in theory functionally equivalent, although I have seen more people claim the former, and it makes more sense to me based on what they did in ME3 and the other multipliers).  In any case, Soldier w/ Heightened ARush and Commando should do 1000 damage without an ammo and Sniper 1.  The main problem is what is the actual HP of the targets and their defenses.  Can't reload it under ARush, which does limit Widow DPS somewhat.

[a_mouse]

^At first glance this would seem to disfavor damage enhancing ammo powers for a Widow sniper, since the Widow can one-shot ordinary mooks regardless, while elites cannot be, even with the help of an ammo bonus.

 

But what about the Mantis?  If one wants to take shotgun/AR (Infiltrator) or Revenant/Claymore (soldier), and yet still snipe most of the time, then is an ammo bonus needed to help push the Mantis over the top for one-shotting ordinary mooks? I so seldom snipe that I have absolutely no intuition about this.

[Vazgen]

^At first glance this would seem to disfavor damage enhancing ammo powers for a Widow sniper, since the Widow can one-shot ordinary mooks regardless, while elites cannot be, even with the help of an ammo bonus.

 

But what about the Mantis?  If one wants to take shotgun/AR (Infiltrator) or Revenant/Claymore (soldier), and yet still snipe most of the time, then is an ammo bonus needed to help push the Mantis over the top for one-shotting ordinary mooks? I so seldom snipe that I have absolutely no intuition about this.

I may be able to try it tomorrow, as I recall I have an Infiltrator save right before the Suicide Mission with everything there is to collect in ME2

[RedCaesar97]

^At first glance this would seem to disfavor damage enhancing ammo powers for a Widow sniper, since the Widow can one-shot ordinary mooks regardless, while elites cannot be, even with the help of an ammo bonus.

 

But what about the Mantis?  If one wants to take shotgun/AR (Infiltrator) or Revenant/Claymore (soldier), and yet still snipe most of the time, then is an ammo bonus needed to help push the Mantis over the top for one-shotting ordinary mooks? I so seldom snipe that I have absolutely no intuition about this.

 

As I recall, yes, but you pretty much need maximum upgrades and you need to be in Adrenaline Rush/Cloak to do it.

 

And the as for the Widow, you need Disruptor Ammo/Warp Ammo on NG+ to be able to one-shot basic shielded/barriered enemies outside of Cloak/A-Rush until you get enough upgrades.

 

If I recall I once asked how many upgrades it took to one-shot basic shielded enemies with the Widow outside of Cloak, and I think I was told 3 damage upgrades + the headshot upgrade + Disruptor Ammo. So the same probably applies with Warp Ammo on basic barriered enemies.

 

Basic Barrier = Collector Troopers, and some Eclipse Mercs on Samara's recruitment mission.

[cap and gown]

This is somewhat off-topic, but related:

 

I found out that Miranda's Area Overload with 3 tech upgrades was not enough to strip the Eclipse Heavies on Samara's recruitment at level 19. It was leaving a sliver of shielding, frustrating the crap out of me.