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[capn233]

I am just going to multiquote since Red answered mainly.

 

^At first glance this would seem to disfavor damage enhancing ammo powers for a Widow sniper, since the Widow can one-shot ordinary mooks regardless, while elites cannot be, even with the help of an ammo bonus.

 

 

And the as for the Widow, you need Disruptor Ammo/Warp Ammo on NG+ to be able to one-shot basic shielded/barriered enemies outside of Cloak/A-Rush until you get enough upgrades.

 

If I recall I once asked how many upgrades it took to one-shot basic shielded enemies with the Widow outside of Cloak, and I think I was told 3 damage upgrades + the headshot upgrade + Disruptor Ammo. So the same probably applies with Warp Ammo on basic barriered enemies.

 

Basic Barrier = Collector Troopers, and some Eclipse Mercs on Samara's recruitment mission.

 

Yes the advantage is one-shotting basics with the Widow outside of ARush, which is a lot faster than trying to wait for ARush since you can't reload it until your cooldown starts.  IMO for Infiltrator it works out a bit differently since against basics you can always power reload with Incinerate, so true one-shots aren't as big of a deal as with Soldier, who would have to power reload with CS or a bonus, and CS does pitiful damage.

 

The main handicap with Mantis is going to be the upgrades available when you use it.  On Horizon, you might not even be able to one-shot the basics just because of upgrades available.  I know ry said he couldn't, but now I don't remember the specifics of which level, upgrades, and armor he used on that mission.  Again, the uncertainty with the enemy HP is a huge limitation here, but one thing I do remember from a more recent run was that I needed Disruptor to be able to one-shot the basic Blue Suns with the Mantis on Professor (as first mission), even considering I had the Kuwashii and Sniper 1 (which you can buy right away on Omega).  I don't remember the level, it is whatever you are if you import a 50 to start at 3.

 

In any case, as it relates to the OP, Warp is a bit better for the one-shot snipers mainly just because it is the only thing that gives you barrier damage, and the Widow and Mantis have good multipliers to armor.

[capn233]

This is somewhat off-topic, but related:

 

I found out that Miranda's Area Overload with 3 tech upgrades was not enough to strip the Eclipse Heavies on Samara's recruitment at level 19. It was leaving a sliver of shielding, frustrating the crap out of me.

 

Yeah, when your defense strip powers are just shy of fully stripping the defense, it is very annoying.  Garrus does have less of a problem with this since he has a nice power damage boost in passive.  Might have been nice if Miranda's passive was power damage instead of weapon or health.

[a_mouse]

Yes the advantage is one-shotting basics with the Widow outside of ARush, which is a lot faster than trying to wait for ARush since you can't reload it until your cooldown starts. … The main handicap with Mantis is going to be the upgrades available when you use it…one thing I do remember from a more recent run was that I needed Disruptor to be able to one-shot the basic Blue Suns with the Mantis on Professor (as first mission), even considering I had the Kuwashii and Sniper 1 (which you can buy right away on Omega). … In any case, as it relates to the OP, Warp is a bit better for the one-shot snipers mainly just because it is the only thing that gives you barrier damage, and the Widow and Mantis have good multipliers to armor.

That's interesting.  So for sniping soldier/infiltrator you might actually want to prioritize shield/barrier-stripping ammo powers.  Something like below?
 
soldier:
HAR 10
DA 10
Comando 10
WA 10
(other) 11
 
infiltrator:
DA 10
Assassination Cloak 10
Assassin 10
WA 10
(other) 11

[RedCaesar97]

@a_mouse: If you are going to snipe a lot, then definitely. 

 

That being said, you can tailor your build and/or bonus power to the mission to help as well. For example, take Heavy Reave for barrier-heavy missions or Energy Drain for shield-heavy missions. Strip defenses with powers > shoot with Mantis. Although I tried that with the Infiltrator once and it was not as good as I thought it would be. But that is probably because I kept mission headshots.

[capn233]

That's interesting.  So for sniping soldier/infiltrator you might actually want to prioritize shield/barrier-stripping ammo powers.  Something like below?
 
soldier:
HAR 10
DA 10
Comando 10
WA 10
(other) 11
 
infiltrator:
DA 10
Assassination Cloak 10
Assassin 10
WA 10
(other) 11

 

 

@a_mouse: If you are going to snipe a lot, then definitely. 

 

That being said, you can tailor your build and/or bonus power to the mission to help as well. For example, take Heavy Reave for barrier-heavy missions or Energy Drain for shield-heavy missions. Strip defenses with powers > shoot with Mantis. Although I tried that with the Infiltrator once and it was not as good as I thought it would be. But that is probably because I kept mission headshots.

 

Yes for Disruptor certainly, single shot sniper rifles is pretty much the only good time for Heavy DA IMO.  Warp is a little different in that it will only help you against Collectors and Eclipse, but with Eclipse it will depend on the rifle and stage of the game.  If you can one-shot the shielded mooks with Widow it might be worth using Warp.  For Collectors, it probably always makes the most sense to run Warp on the Widow if you aren't using the bonus for something else as no other ammo is really going to do much of anything, except maybe Incendiary.

[cap and gown]

Yes for Disruptor certainly, single shot sniper rifles is pretty much the only good time for Heavy DA IMO.  Warp is a little different in that it will only help you against Collectors and Eclipse, but with Eclipse it will depend on the rifle and stage of the game.  If you can one-shot the shielded mooks with Widow it might be worth using Warp.  For Collectors, it probably always makes the most sense to run Warp on the Widow if you aren't using the bonus for something else as no other ammo is really going to do much of anything, except maybe Incendiary.

 

An awful lot of talk about using an ammo power for OSKs. But unless you are specifically looking for a playthrough that focuses on OSKs, I would never pick an ammo power as a bonus power if I already had ammo powers native to the class. The only time I would pick an ammo power is when I don't have any by default and if there was not some other bonus power that might serve better. For instance, with my Adept I generally go with Energy Drain as a bonus, but there are occasions where an ammo power might work. For instance, I used Armor Piercing on the Derelict Reaper for the extra weapon damage since my other needs could be met by native powers. For Collectors it might make sense to go with Warp ammo for the barrier damage bonus and the bonus against lifted targets. But my thinking there was that I would be booming them as soon as they were lifted in most cases, and dealing with the Scions was a bigger priority. Also, SMGs already have an inherent bonus against Barriers. So I went with Armor Piercing.

[Vazgen]

Well everyone already covered it so I won't record that video  

Also because that character really did everything there was to do, even the Suicide Mission

[a_mouse]

An awful lot of talk about using an ammo power for OSKs. But unless you are specifically looking for a playthrough that focuses on OSKs, I would never pick an ammo power as a bonus power if I already had ammo powers native to the class. 

 

The context of this discussion is my previous comment expressing the opinion that immobilizing ammo powers (DA, IA, and CA) are better than ammo powers that only boost damage (AP, WA, SA) (which are the only ones available as a bonus).  Thus there is little motivation to take an ammo power as a bonus, since classes with native immobilizing ammo already have better options, while classes that don't are probably better off using the squad version of an immobilizing ammo power off a squad-mate, leaving the level points for something else (native or bonus).

 

In reply, Red pointed out that a notable exception is snipers, where having a damage-enhacing ammo power can make the difference between OSKing an enemy and leaving a sliver of health.  I agree with this exception, since when you are working from range it is not so critical to immobilize enemies, while being able to eliminate an enemy in one shot frees up attention and cool down for other tasks.  As capn points out, sniper rifles already have big multipliers for armor, and the sniping classes have DA for shields, so WA is probably the most relevant if exercising this option.  

[a_mouse]

...with my Adept I generally go with Energy Drain as a bonus, but there are occasions where an ammo power might work. For instance, I used Armor Piercing on the Derelict Reaper for the extra weapon damage since my other needs could be met by native powers. For Collectors it might make sense to go with Warp ammo for the barrier damage bonus and the bonus against lifted targets. But my thinking there was that I would be booming them as soon as they were lifted in most cases, and dealing with the Scions was a bigger priority. Also, SMGs already have an inherent bonus against Barriers. So I went with Armor Piercing.

The opportunity cost of the bonus ammo power is not so much giving up the bonus slot, but giving up the 10 level points needed to make the impact of the ammo noticeable.  For Adept, those points might be better spent on defense-stripping powers (e.g. Warp, Reave, Energy Drain) or saved for control powers while the squad does the stripping and/or provides ammo power. For example, on Reaper IFF, bring some combination of Jacob with pull and squad IA, Miranda (Unstable Warp), Samara (Area Reave + Pull), or Mordin (AOE Incineration + AOE cryo), and the armor will come down pretty quickly, with lots of great options for neutralizing husks on red health bars.

[capn233]

Yes, and that is part of why ammo power may make more sense for some classes and builds than others, even if the class comes with ammo already.

 

The Widow Soldier does indeed already have 3 potential ammos, but none of them work on Barriers.  Additionally, if you plan to use all or most of your cooldowns for Adrenaline Rush, you might not want an active power for the bonus, even if you get to save the points.

 

In any case, a Widow Soldier can take maxed Warp Ammo along with Combat Mastery, ARush and Squad Cryo Ammo at Level 26, which is a fairly solid setup against Collectors, and would work on the SM, or for Eclipse if you still have a mission against them.

 

Clearly for Blood Pack or Blue Suns it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to use that build, probably maxing IA to Inferno will make sense, and either Squad Disruptor or Cryo depending on how many points you have for that level and mission.

 

If we are trying simply to max the Widow Soldier, Stasis is going to be the most powerful bonus so you can abuse the glitch.  It is of course a biotic power.

[RedCaesar97]

In any case, a Widow Soldier can take maxed Warp Ammo along with Combat Mastery, ARush and Squad Cryo Ammo at Level 26, which is a fairly solid setup against Collectors, and would work on the SM, or for Eclipse if you still have a mission against them.

 

I want to point out again that the only non-Collector's mission where you face weak-barriered enemies are the Eclipse mercs on Samara's recruitment mission. On all other Eclipse mission, enemies with barriers are Asari Vanguards who have too much health and barriers to one-shot with the Widow.

 

 

On a side-note, a quick rule of thumb to tell if a shielded or barriered merc is a basic or elite: basic mercs wear helmets while elite enemies do not have helmets. Basic mercs also tend to have "Trooper" in the name. Super elite mercs have two protection layers (armor and shields/barriers).

[a_mouse]

I want to point out again that the only non-Collector's mission where you face weak-barriered enemies are the Eclipse mercs on Samara's recruitment mission. On all other Eclipse mission, enemies with barriers are Asari Vanguards who have too much health and barriers to one-shot with the Widow.

Red, do you mean too many HP to one-shot outside of HAR, or too many HP to one-shot, period? (I assume you mean the latter).

 

I suppose one nice thing about that (for snipers) is that you seldom need to deal with Shields and Barriers on ordinary mooks at the same time. So if you take WA as a bonus power, you can respec each mission for Shields vs. Barriers, freeing points for other things.

[a_mouse]

...you can tailor your build and/or bonus power to the mission to help as well. For example, take Heavy Reave for barrier-heavy missions or Energy Drain for shield-heavy missions. Strip defenses with powers > shoot with Mantis. Although I tried that with the Infiltrator once and it was not as good as I thought it would be. But that is probably because I kept [missing] headshots.

What about the opposite?  ie. snipe off all protection, and then immediately immobilize/detonate, etc. with squad powers?  Would you even need a damage-enhancing ammo power for this (Mantis or Widow)?  If not, I'd think an immobilizing ammo power might be better.

[RedCaesar97]

Red, do you mean too many HP to one-shot outside of HAR, or too many HP to one-shot, period? (I assume you mean the latter).

 

I suppose one nice thing about that (for snipers) is that you seldom need to deal with Shields and Barriers on ordinary mooks at the same time. So if you take WA as a bonus power, you can respec each mission for Shields vs. Barriers, freeing points for other things.

 

[Elite enemies have] too much HP and shields/barriers to one-shot with the Widow at level 30, even with all upgrades and Heightened Adrenaline Rush.

By Elite enemies, I mean enemies like Asari Vanguards/Collector Assassins or Blue Suns Legionnaires.

You can take them down to half health or one-third health or something like that, but you cannot kill them outright.

[RedCaesar97]

What about the opposite?  ie. snipe off all protection, and then immediately immobilize/detonate, etc. with squad powers?  Would you even need a damage-enhancing ammo power for this (Mantis or Widow)?  If not, I'd think an immobilizing ammo power might be better.

 

Well if you are going to do that, then I would not even be using the Mantis or Widow. Better to use the Viper or some other weapon so you can remove protections from more than one enemy per clip.

 

(I modded a Soldier save once to give it SMGs; SMGs under Adrenaline Rush is freaking BEAST. A-Rush > shoot protections off a couple of enemies > Mordin Cryo Blast > shoot the popsicles. Great times.)

[a_mouse]

Good point.  I suppose one could also use AR to run up and shoot them in the face with a shotgun!  (Oh, wait, sorry, we were talking about snipers…)  

[capn233]

If you go down this route, you can end up with the conclusion that Widow is probably the least useful of the advanced weapons for a Soldier, especially since Viper is so good with his vanilla powers.

 

Back to the Widow and Barriers, I suppose the best question to ask about Elites is whether or not you can one-shot them at 30 after a single Unstable Warp or Area Reave.

[a_mouse]

If you go down this route, you can end up with the conclusion that Widow is probably the least useful of the advanced weapons for a Soldier, especially since Viper is so good with his vanilla powers.

Personally, I find the synergy of Cloak and shotgun to be so compelling that I would never take Widow except on a Soldier, which doesn't really need the Revenant or Claymore to be a beast at short/mid range.  The Widow, in contrast, adds a tactical option in certain unique situations, e.g sniping collectors/husks from range while dealing with the Praetorian on the CS, or knocking-out isolated units at range with less risk of getting staggered.  Yes, you can always pull out a viper and hammer them.  But the Widow is so satisfyingly… straightforward.
 

Back to the Widow and Barriers, I suppose the best question to ask about Elites is whether or not you can one-shot them at 30 after a single Unstable Warp or Area Reave.

Yes, this does seem like a relevant question. A related question is whether you need a damage-enhancing ammo power to do it.  

[RedCaesar97]

Back to the Widow and Barriers, I suppose the best question to ask about Elites is whether or not you can one-shot them at 30 after a single Unstable Warp or Area Reave.

 

Just tested this. Level 30 Widow Soldier. Commando, Heightened Adrenaline Rush, Heavy Warp Ammo. Miranda with Cerberus Leader, as much weapon damage on armor + the Kuwashi Visor for slightly more headshot damage. I should have all six Sniper Rifle Upgrades at this point. I should have all six Biotic Damage upgrades at this point.

 

Eldfell-Ashland Facility mission. There are two Eclipse Asari Vanguards that can spawn at the beginning. It was the only mission I had available post-Suicide Mission.

 

With an A-Rush headshot, I can remove all barriers and a small portion of health.

If I hit the barriers first with Area Reave or Unstable Warp, then with an A-Rush headshot I can only take the Eclipse Asari Vanguard down to just under half health.

 

 

 

And for the record, with this setup, I was one-shotting the basic shielded mercs on this mission without A-Rush, regardless of ammo power used.

[a_mouse]

Just tested this. Level 30 Widow Soldier. Commando, Heightened Adrenaline Rush, Heavy Warp. ...With an A-Rush headshot, I can remove all barriers and a small portion of health. If I hit the barriers first with Area Reave or Unstable Warp, then with an A-Rush headshot I can only take the Eclipse Asari Vanguard down to just under half health.

Clarification: I assume you meant Heavy Warp Ammo? 

[RedCaesar97]

Clarification: I assume you meant Heavy Warp Ammo? 

 

Yes. I will edit the post

[a_mouse]

Just tested this. Level 30 Widow Soldier. Commando, Heightened Adrenaline Rush, Heavy Warp Ammo. Miranda with Cerberus Leader, as much weapon damage on armor + the Kuwashi Visor for slightly more headshot damage. I should have all six Sniper Rifle Upgrades at this point. I should have all six Biotic Damage upgrades at this point.

 

Eldfell-Ashland Facility mission. There are two Eclipse Asari Vanguards that can spawn at the beginning. It was the only mission I had available post-Suicide Mission.

 

With an A-Rush headshot, I can remove all barriers and a small portion of health.

If I hit the barriers first with Area Reave or Unstable Warp, then with an A-Rush headshot I can only take the Eclipse Asari Vanguard down to just under half health.

 

And for the record, with this setup, I was one-shotting the basic shielded mercs on this mission without A-Rush, regardless of ammo power used.

 

Hmm.  What this says to me is that even with a Widow sniper there is very little motivation to take a damage-enhancing ammo power as a bonus, since the basics can be one-shot outside of AR without an ammo power, and the heavys cannot be one-shot regardless.  The exception might be early game (fresh or NG+) where one needs an ammo power to boost Mantis or Widow (NG+) prior to getting upgrades.  

[capn233]

Hmmm.  I wonder if it works at all at lower level.  They claimed that progressive upgrades scattered through the game were supposed to allow you to follow the enemy HP scaling, but since Ammo doesn't exactly work out that way it should be a little more powerful at lower level.

 

The minimum level for evolved ARush, Passive and WA is 15.  Guess at that point, the level of your import and where you do DCC is going to become a factor.

 

But I suppose for the most part in this thread WA is making a poor showing.  I remember old threads talking about it a lot, although mostly on infiltrator.  If I play Widow Soldier again, I would probably just run Inferno on it.

[a_mouse]

I vaguely remember reading these threads as well, their most notable characteristic being the passion and intensity with which people argued for AP vs Warp ammo (as if all other ammo powers were a far inferior second choice).  Arguments seemed to be based almost exclusively on small incremental differences in the damage bonus, or versatility against different types of protection, with little recognition of the benefits of immobilization.  People argued vehemently that Cryo Ammo is useless on Insanity, since it has zero damage bonus against protection, and all enemies are protected, bla, bla bla.  Ha!  Now I am hard pressed to think of a situation where I'd want AP or Warp ammo (20-20 hindsight, I suppose).