112 réponses à ce sujet

[Andrew Lucas]

The same can be said about the Alliance. For 2 years they made no effort to find a way to stop the reapers and then lock up Shepard for 6 months while doing nothing and only cry for Shepard to do something when the reapers are at Earth's door step.

Have I said that they are fine? I didn't.

But you know, they don't Indoctrinate their soldiers or accidentally create another project Overload, they've made mistakes, I've never said that they didn't, and I think that locking Shepard isn't the same thing as the mentioned subjects above.

Like I've stated before, they both suck, so?

[ImaginaryMatter]

My main problem with Cerberus is that on screen they rarely display the competence that the characters clamor about them having, usually it's the exact opposite. I don't have any moral qualms about working for them, I have more practical considerations for working with a group of idiots. Ultimately, though I guess this is more the fault of ME2's plot. TIM's plan banks on the Collectors being equally incompetent and that turns out to be exactly the case.

[Rasande]

My main issue with Cerberus is how terribly they're inserted into the story. I like alot about them and the reason they exist, i moraly ambigious orginization that (potentially)puts Shepard in difficult position of having to work with an old enemy to save the galaxy. That's great!

The problem is, to get this to work they make everyone else incharge the cliché condesending politian from a disaster movie, that does nothing but doubt the hero untill it's too late.

 

It's just retarded. And there's quite of bit of that type of stuff in the entire trilogy, they come up with a good premise or theme they'd like to be part of the story and kind of hamfistedly(is that even a word?) shove it in there.

[cap and gown]

My main problem with Cerberus is that on screen they rarely display the competence that the characters clamor about them having, usually it's the exact opposite. I don't have any moral qualms about working for them, I have more practical considerations for working with a group of idiots. Ultimately, though I guess this is more the fault of ME2's plot. TIM's plan banks on the Collectors being equally incompetent and that turns out to be exactly the case.

 

Everyone in the MEU shows an amazing amount of incompetence, including Shepard.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Everyone in the MEU shows an amazing amount of incompetence, including Shepard.

 

To be sure (you don't have to look farther than something like the Collector Ship to see that's the case). Cerberus is still the prize winner, by far. They just come off as ME's version of Umbrella Corp and Cobra Command.

[wolfhowwl]

Shepard's death and working with Cerberus are squandered potential. Her resurrection isn't really touched on outside of one conversation in ME3 and the unpleasant aspects of Cerberus are whitewashed or ignored turning the group into another rehash of the Spectres instead of confronting what working with a terrorist organization really means and bringing some moral ambiguity to the table (their competency is another issue as well).

[God]

Discovering things isn't a problem, but Cerberus keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over again, they don't learn a single thing about it and lives goes to waste because of that.

Cerberus tries to get the job done, but 99% of the time, it backfires. So yeah, I wouldn't work for them.

 

I wouldn't say that at all? What mistakes are they making ad infinitum? What are they failing to learn?

 

They may have a few costly results, but nearly every experiment I've seen from them yielded valuable results that can be used. As I said, the cost was high, but the results are there.

 

I'd want to make them more efficient, but I'd still work for them and be proud of it.

[sjsharp2011]

Discovering things isn't a problem, but Cerberus keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over again, they don't learn a single thing about it and lives goes to waste because of that.

Cerberus tries to get the job done, but 99% of the time, it backfires. So yeah, I wouldn't work for them.

Can't asy I would either given the choice but in Shepard's case though he/she didn't have one as they needed the resources in order to stop the collectors/Reapers in ME2 so they had to put their dislike to one side to get the mission done

[God]

Have I said that they are fine? I didn't.

But you know, they don't Indoctrinate their soldiers or accidentally create another project Overload, they've made mistakes, I've never said that they didn't, and I think that locking Shepard isn't the same thing as the mentioned subjects above.

Like I've stated before, they both suck, so?

 

I think what they did to Shepard, given the context of who and what he is, was tremendously worse than anything Cerberus did. 

 

TIM made indoctrinated soldiers, yes. Not such a bad idea, if it could work. Speaking as a veteran here, I can tell you that the military would likely be interested in technology to ensure the devotion and morale of their servicemen if they could get away with it. Plus, via indoctrinating Soldiers, Cerberus also found, replicated, and successfully overrode the indoctrination mechanism. That's pretty genius. Maybe it wasn't put to great usage, but it certainly was a step in figuring out a means to controlling the Reapers. 

 

And Project Overlord was a technical success. Cerberus successfully created a means to control the Geth. Yes, it was costly, but the results could have proven beneficial if put into practical application with more safety controls.

[God]

Can't asy I would either given the choice but in Shepard's case though he/she didn't have one as they needed the resources in order to stop the collectors/Reapers in ME2 so they had to put their dislike to one side to get the mission done

 

My Shepard's casual dislike soon turned into admiration and irritation with everyone else.

 

Maybe he might have hoped to be with somebody else after the mission. But post-mission, he clearly saw his future with Cerberus, and he wanted to keep it that way.

[God]

Shepard's death and working with Cerberus are squandered potential. Her resurrection isn't really touched on outside of one conversation in ME3 and the unpleasant aspects of Cerberus are whitewashed or ignored turning the group into another rehash of the Spectres instead of confronting what working with a terrorist organization really means and bringing some moral ambiguity to the table (their competency is another issue as well).

 

I agree, there was a lot of issues here.

 

Firstly, I wouldn't have gone so hilariously overboard with Shepard's death. They did the equivalent of dropping a comet onto the mountain that fell on the building that collapsed on the bridge that plummeted on Shepard. 

 

Honestly, it could have been much better done had Shepard not been dropped onto a planet. They should have just had him run out of air and asphyxiate, with his body being recovered within hours by SB agents (then commence the plot of Redemption). I'm not opposed to the idea or concept behind Lazarus, just the sheer hilarity of what was done to kill Shepard.

 

As for the unpleasant aspects, yeah they could have been touched on. My Shepard could guess full well what was going on and still support them. Hell, he'll be doing the same after the war with his own organization. 

 

I disagree with the terrorist label however. Cerberus aren't a conventional terrorist organization by any means. Extreme outlaw group (more akin to organized crime) that conducts scientific and military experiments of very questionable ethics and morality? Perhaps. But actual terrorist actions? Not until ME3, in which they more or less deviated into full blown rogue state. You see, the purpose of terrorism is to generate fear. Cerberus isn't out to generate fear, they're out to advance humanity, even if it means using illegal means.

 

My view on their competency has been discussed before by me: People give them a lot less credit than they've earned. Contrary to how you feel, they have actually had much success.

[God]

To be sure (you don't have to look farther than something like the Collector Ship to see that's the case). Cerberus is still the prize winner, by far. They just come off as ME's version of Umbrella Corp and Cobra Command.

 

I'd say more like Halo's Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI).

[God]

My main problem with Cerberus is that on screen they rarely display the competence that the characters clamor about them having, usually it's the exact opposite. I don't have any moral qualms about working for them, I have more practical considerations for working with a group of idiots. Ultimately, though I guess this is more the fault of ME2's plot. TIM's plan banks on the Collectors being equally incompetent and that turns out to be exactly the case.

 

You see, I really do disagree with the assessment that they're incompetent. Otherwise, they wouldn't have created weaponized thorian creepers, or brought Shepard back to life, or found a means to control the Geth, or found the means to control Reaper forces, or taken over Omega by outsmarting Aria, or done all the things most of the Cerberus scientists that are on Gellix have done.

[Andrew Lucas]

I wouldn't say that at all? What mistakes are they making ad infinitum? What are they failing to learn?
 
They may have a few costly results, but nearly every experiment I've seen from them yielded valuable results that can be used. As I said, the cost was high, but the results are there.
 
I'd want to make them more efficient, but I'd still work for them and be proud of it.

  

Their mistakes are revealed back at ME1, it seems that casualties and accidents are a normal thing for them. The leadership (TIM) is also problematic, he's to radical and manipulative, that's stopping me from supporting the organization. Their goals are noble, but the execution? Not so much.

Like you said, they could've done things better, the idea of helping humanity to evolve is a good thing, and I approve it, but the ways to achieve such goal is what bugs me. They've done good things, one of them was saving the Council from a terrorist attack.

Can't asy I would either given the choice but in Shepard's case though he/she didn't have one as they needed the resources in order to stop the collectors/Reapers in ME2 so they had to put their dislike to one side to get the mission done

 

Yeah, I often say that my Shepard didn't joined them, they became his ally, and things could've been diffent, but my Shepard and TIM have different methods, and that's where this 'relationship' goes downhill. I'm not a hypocrite, TIM cares for humanity, he really does. Heck - he even brought Shepard back to stop a problem that only humanity had while the Alliance sat and did nothing, but TIM lost his way, and there's nothing that my Shepard could've done about that.


 

I think what they did to Shepard, given the context of who and what he is, was tremendously worse than anything Cerberus did. 
 
TIM made indoctrinated soldiers, yes. Not such a bad idea, if it could work. Speaking as a veteran here, I can tell you that the military would likely be interested in technology to ensure the devotion and morale of their servicemen if they could get away with it. Plus, via indoctrinating Soldiers, Cerberus also found, replicated, and successfully overrode the indoctrination mechanism. That's pretty genius. Maybe it wasn't put to great usage, but it certainly was a step in figuring out a means to controlling the Reapers. 
 
And Project Overlord was a technical success. Cerberus successfully created a means to control the Geth. Yes, it was costly, but the results could have proven beneficial if put into practical application with more safety controls.

To each their own. I personally fail to see why locking Shepard, a Spectre who wasn't even working for them anymore, is worse than losing countless of lives

Indoctrination is basically brainwashing, I don't see how anything good can come from it. Why? You play with fire, and you get burned, that's what happened with Cerberus, and they didn't even put the 'discovery' to good use, instead, husks were done and what purpose did they served? Why is it so hard to put differences aside when chaos is knocking your door and help the Alliance to build the crucible with Cerberus researchers and tech? But that's my thoughts of course, I'm not saying that the Alliance is a saint BTW.

Safety Controls, that's something that they really needed lol. Like I said, most of the researches had the potential of helping humanity in some way, but ultimately, Cerberus kept committing the same mistakes, at least under TIM's management, even Jeff jokes about it.

[Kuseikos]

I see the discussion has gone a long way from where I started it.

 

Anyway, the reason why I posted here was to share my disappointment with the game, which was rooted in various issues (poor story, scarce RPing, too much action with too many enemies to kill, and the inconceivable absurdity of asking my Shepard to work for Cerberus).

If some people like Cerberus, or, like I do, they think Cerberus is the ultimate scum of the Universe, is quite irrelevant to the point of this topic.

 

I have little else to add concerning Cerberus itself. They are a disgrace to the galaxy and thanks to BW I am convinced Cerberus is a greater threat than the Reapers. And I certainly hate them more than the Reapers by now. But since I started ME3, I had the great pleasure to kill Cerberus agents in melee fight, and I'd rather reload the same battle 10 times over until I can kill every single Cerberus agent with my bare hands, then proceed with the game letting even one alone escape. But I admit there was some great pleasure in killing them with their stupid robotic weaponry. Watching them blow up was rewarding in itself.

[God]

Cerberus is an idea, and not one that is so easily extinguished. 

 

So, the Illusive Man was right all along?

 

You miss the point of forums. You post this, someones gonna argue with you.

 

Now you know how I feel about filthy suit rats and Krogan.

 

Killing them is a favor to the higher races.

[God]

  

Their mistakes are revealed back at ME1, it seems that casualties and accidents are a normal thing for them. The leadership (TIM) is also problematic, he's to radical and manipulative, that's stopping me from supporting the organization. Their goals are noble, but the execution? Not so much.

Like you said, they could've done things better, the idea of helping humanity to evolve is a good thing, and I approve it, but the ways to achieve such goal is what bugs me. They've done good things, one of them was saving the Council from a terrorist attack.


 

Yeah, I often say that my Shepard didn't joined them, they became his ally, and things could've been diffent, but my Shepard and TIM have different methods, and that's where this 'relationship' goes downhill. I'm not a hypocrite, TIM cares for humanity, he really does. Heck - he even brought Shepard back to stop a problem that only humanity had while the Alliance sat and did nothing, but TIM lost his way, and there's nothing that my Shepard could've done about that.


 
To each their own. I personally fail to see why locking Shepard, a Spectre who wasn't even working for them anymore, is worse than losing countless of lives

Indoctrination is basically brainwashing, I don't see how anything good can come from it. Why? You play with fire, and you get burned, that's what happened with Cerberus, and they didn't even put the 'discovery' to good use, instead, husks were done and what purpose did they served? Why is it so hard to put differences aside when chaos is knocking your door and help the Alliance to build the crucible with Cerberus researchers and tech? But that's my thoughts of course, I'm not saying that the Alliance is a saint BTW.

Safety Controls, that's something that they really needed lol. Like I said, most of the researches had the potential of helping humanity in some way, but ultimately, Cerberus kept committing the same mistakes, at least under TIM's management, even Jeff jokes about it.

 

Welp, I had a response all written up, but my laptop konk'd out on me. 

 

Forgive me, I'm in a place that has very poor internet connection, and US Army servers aren't what I'd call stellar.

[Andrew Lucas]

Welp, I had a response all written up, but my laptop konk'd out on me.

Forgive me, I'm in a place that has very poor internet connection, and US Army servers aren't what I'd call stellar.

No problem, pal. I'm always willing to read your thoughts nonetheless.

[themikefest]

 

I have little else to add concerning Cerberus itself. They are a disgrace to the galaxy and thanks to BW I am convinced Cerberus is a greater threat than the Reapers. And I certainly hate them more than the Reapers by now. 

When you get to a certain point in your ME3 playthrough, I will mention ones that are a much bigger disgrace to the galaxy

[nos_astra]

Cerberus' plans in ME2 were pretty useless to begin with:
Bring Shepard back exactly as they were because they (the Council species) will follow them. Except no one is following Shepard's improved new self. And if the distrust isn't big enough, thanks to coming back without some sort of cover story, announcing that you're now working with Cerberus is not making this any better.
Not that TIM or Shepard or anyone care.

But we've got things to do. Like defeating the single Collector cruiser that the Alliance refuses to worry about until it's too late, scheduled for when he'll freezes over or the Reapers fly in anyway, whichever comes first.

Great plan.

[God]

Beats what the alliance and the Council are doing about the problem.

 

Plus, it was kind of their plan to drive Shepard to them. TIM just had to leak that Shepard was alive and working for Cerberus. He left everything else to Shepard to see for himself. Both groups had more or less officially discredited his warnings while using his image as a cheap propaganda tool. He's been a political liability and pariah for the last 2 years.

 

Otherwise, the Collectors are presented as serious threat that does endanger Earth. While the immediate end-game doesn't follow up on that well, you can't blame it on the internal groups and actors in the game. It's hardly Cerberus or Shepard's fault that the Reapers are already on their way. They left it open for the player to engage whenever they felt ready.

[nos_astra]

 

Beats what the alliance and the Council are doing about the problem.

 

Which one?

They're doing nothing against the Reapers.

The Collectors aren't much of a threat if one single ship and a bunch of soldiers can defeat them with relative ease. I can see why the Alliance wouldn't exactly be quaking in their boots even if the writers didn't.

 

 

Plus, it was kind of their plan to drive Shepard to them. TIM just had to leak that Shepard was alive and working for Cerberus.

How was isolating Shepard a good plan when it meant pissing away the advantage they claimed was the reason for resurrecting him?

Unless they wanted to ignite a civil war and turn the public against the government ... or whoever was supposed to follow Shepard under those circumstances.

 

 

Otherwise, the Collectors are presented as serious threat that does endanger Earth. While the immediate end-game doesn't follow up on that well, you can't blame it on the internal groups and actors in the game. It's hardly Cerberus or Shepard's fault that the Reapers are already on their way.

 

It's bad plotting. A symptom bad writing. A symptom that a chunk of ME2 just plain sucks.

[Vazgen]

TIM's plan is ridiculous.

Spend billions of credits to get one soldier back, spend thousands to recruit the best specialists in the galaxy, send them through a relay that nobody ever returned from and attack an unknown amount of Collectors. Imagine if Normandy got out of the relay and faced 100s of Collector ships protecting Collector homeworld.

 

I'd expect him to just destroy the Omega 4 relay Arrival-style. Kill a bunch of aliens along the way, cripple Terminus Systems, stop the Collector attacks.

But no, "Shepard remains our best hope". 

*facepalm*

[themikefest]

The Collectors aren't much of a threat if one single ship and a bunch of soldiers can defeat them with relative ease.

Who are these bunch of soldiers?

 

[nos_astra]

Soldiers is a stretch. More like random people with guns for no specific reason.