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Solas Breakup


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#51
jellobell

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True. I haven't romanced solas, and only a bit of Cullen so I really wouldn't know. I feel like the solas romance will only lead to more inquisitor heartbreak in future dlc, which would make me choose Cullen. I love a happy ending.
Josephine has my heart though so I always just end up romancing her....boring I know lol.

Well everyone has their preferences. ;) What's right for one person might not be for others.

 

I'm not really a fan of heartbreak either, but there's just something about Solas's romance that has me hooked. It's an amazing story, and Solas is one of the most fascinating characters Bioware has ever made. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't hoping for some sort of happy resolution in a future DLC, like what people who romanced Morrigan got. But I'll just have to wait and see. As it is, the romance feels kind of...unfinished, so I have a feeling it isn't quite over yet.


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#52
Addai

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Oh please, Cullen is the man.

I like his character arc but he's basically Alistair 2.0 and the novelty of that has long worn off. Also unlike with Alistair, nothing unexpected or terribly interesting happens in Cullen's romance. It's predictable and forgettable.
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#53
wiccame

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Apparently some dev notes reveal that Solas actually did absorb Mythal's power (she didn't possess him).

 

I'll just leave the quote here.

Spoiler

Oh I never saw this...this makes me happy, I want to see more of his story and thought there'd be no chance.


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#54
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I like his character arc but he's basically Alistair 2.0 and the novelty of that has long worn off. Also unlike with Alistair, nothing unexpected or terribly interesting happens in Cullen's romance. It's predictable and forgettable.


Woah Cullen is the man.. But Alistair... Alistair is a god.

I see your comparison though, I think Alistair overall as a character is deeper and has better content though... And therefore Cullen is more like a downgraded Alistair.

#55
Eliastion

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Personally I do see the Elven Gods as "Gods", or at least in the same "God" category as the Maker. I don't think they are all-knowing and omnipresent though, just some great and powerful beings that got mixed up in the origin of the world and got worshiped by different people.

Generally speaking, while Maker seems to have some pretense to be all-knowing, all-powerful and perhaps omnipresent, elven gods never aspired to anything of the sort. They're gods, not "God but more of him" (which would be stupid, I don't know of any polytheistic religion that would actually try to present its gods as omnipotent). They're explicitly born from the world, their title as creators doesn't imply creation of something from nothing. Basically, they're presented as powerful, generally benevolent beings that looked after the elves, and they are explicitly stated to be learning about the ways of the world (though that comes from modern Dalish legends, hard to say how it was presented in times of Elvhenan); Dirthamen and Falon'Din pretty much discover how the Beyond and afterlife works, and Elgar'nan brings down the Sun and then he learns that - ooops, the Sun really is important if we want things to, well, grow.
In a way, Dalish seem to look up to their gods more like they would do to parents/teachers/older siblings (in the most general meaning possible) rather than beings as fundamentally different as the Maker is compared to mortals - and that's after two thousand years of passing down old tales, something that would be generally most likely to further distance mortals from gods rather than bring them closer.
Basically, the question of elven gods divinity is a question of "what is gods" more than "do they fit the definition". Tevinter Old Gods are supposedly "not created" (I'm not sure where this comes from, but I'm certain I've read about them coming from outside Creation), but elven ones are explicitly part of the world, if the world was created by someone, they automatically were too. If a god is supposed to be something fundamentally different than mortals - they're not gods. If a god is a powerful benevolent being somebody revers as such - yep, gods they are. I'm pretty sure that if a Dalish were to believe this whole story about Andraste and Maker, he would call the former a human goddess and the latter - who knows, perhaps he would avoid lumping him with gods at all, seeing as it's a being on yet another level of existence.
 

But I do agree completely with the things you said in my quote. The elves are too passive at times and too impulsive at other times. They lack leadership, lack sustainability, lack the balance of ambition and patience and action. The world was and still is harsh to them, but it's not the world's fault that they got devoured piece by piece because they dwelled in anger and self-pity too much. In ancient times they were probably ruled and protected by their god-kings and they were fine, but god-kings are never good because the people can't really aspire to become them. The people never grew enough to be responsible for themselves, so everything cracked when the god-kings were gone. Now they are still waiting for their gods to come back and lead them, and this is not healthy. Having their gods would help, but what they need the most now is a king.

I think you miss the point, really. The Dalish don't have a king (or any other governing body) because it's decisively impractical for their way of life. Thy're nomads, they live in countless small (a couple hundreds at most, usually more like a couple dozen people) clans and those clans are VERY different, they pay lip service to those same core beliefs, but I bet every clan has its own spin on them. We know some clans are pretty much wandering bandits, others are extremely reclusive, others yet trade and interact with humans on regular basis. And that's just one aspect of them. I bet there are Dalish traditionalists (we need to find and preserve lore), progressive Dalish (we're the elves, we live NOW, we need to build on whatever foundations we have, not just repeat old tales and excavate ruins) and stick-it-up-your-arse Dalish (we're good as we are, why would we settle and trade our freedom for walls and a roof). I'm pretty sure we heard of a clan that uses elvish as its everyday language for internal communication while we also hear that Dalish never reconstructed their language. The only conclusion seems to be that there are at least two elvish languages: that half-recovered "pure" one and the everyday "modern dalish", most likely with lots of words just created when needed, or borrowed from human languages (which can be seen as keeping the language alive by some and desacrating it by others). Despite all the kinship they feel, they're a single nation in the same sense Free Marches are: enough for them to stick together, but much too little to actually unite in foreseeable future.

And as for their gods/god-kings making elves unable to self-govern now, that is simply not true. Elves did create, pretty much from scratch, a powerful nation - Dales, that lasted almost four hundred years (that's about as long as united Ferelden exists), and they were destroyed in a war with Orlais that could've ended the other way - Exalted March was ultimately succesfull, but the Dales did actually conquer Val Royeaux (despite EM already being in effect). Dales fell, but definitely not without a fight and old elven fortresses still stand as a testament to the nation's power at its peak - all this without any god-kings ;)



#56
Addai

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Woah Cullen is the man.. But Alistair... Alistair is a god.

I see your comparison though, I think Alistair overall as a character is deeper and has better content though... And therefore Cullen is more like a downgraded Alistair.

Yeah. Nothing against his fans or anything, who waited a long time for that sword of mercy, but you did ask.

I'm more disappointed that Iron Bull isn't more to my taste.

#57
ThreeF

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Woah Cullen is the man.. But Alistair... Alistair is a god.

 

Alistair is a boy :ph34r:


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#58
HuldraDancer

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Seeing all the love Sola's gets makes me a bit sad that I really found him dull, trudging through his romance was so hard for me but the last scene was well done and I did have way to much fun picking the more agro options after he dumps ya.
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#59
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Yeah. Nothing against his fans or anything, who waited a long time for that sword of mercy, but you did ask.I'm more disappointed that Iron Bull isn't more to my taste.


Lol not a fan of Freddie prinze jr?

I like him if you save the chargers, not as much if he become more qun-ish.
Alongside varric, he is the perfect companion for a broquistor.

I don't know he made me laugh, the inquisition needs more laughs.

I mean gosh, cole, is one of the funniest people in skyhold at the moment..... That's a problem.

#60
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Alistair is a boy :ph34r:


Boy King*

There's a difference.

#61
ThreeF

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Boy King*

There's a difference.

The allure or power?



#62
Addai

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Lol not a fan of Freddie prinze jr?

The whole BDSM thing. I can't take it seriously.
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#63
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The whole BDSM thing. I can't take it seriously.

The whole BDSM thing. I can't take it seriously.


Hahah me neither, I think that's why I like Iron Bull though.

#64
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The allure or power?


Both of course.

#65
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But I do agree completely with the things you said in my quote. The elves are too passive at times and too impulsive at other times. They lack leadership, lack sustainability, lack the balance of ambition and patience and action. The world was and still is harsh to them, but it's not the world's fault that they got devoured piece by piece because they dwelled in anger and self-pity too much. In ancient times they were probably ruled and protected by their god-kings and they were fine, but god-kings are never good because the people can't really aspire to become them. The people never grew enough to be responsible for themselves, so everything cracked when the god-kings were gone. Now they are still waiting for their gods to come back and lead them, and this is not healthy. Having their gods would help, but what they need the most now is a king. 

 

I think you just described most people in general, yet hold these flaws against the elves while conveniently forgetting that most humans in the game and real life often act similarly when in similar circumstances. (Remember how Thedas spiraled into chaos when the Circles fell and the Chantry split?) Most people rely on a select few in some sort of leadership position to ensure their well-being, make widespread decisions, defend them from foreign powers, et cetera (whether it's monarchs, ogliarchs, elected officials in republics, religious leaders in theocrasies, etc) and become scattered and disorganized when it's suddenly changed or taken away; especially in circumstances beyond their control.

 

There's a saying "cut off the head, and the body will roll." Yet you blame the elven body for not instantly catching their footing, finding a new head, putting it on, then going about their lives as if they never lost their head in the first place the second it was severed?

 

The elves say in their stories that they noticed the quickening and retreated from humans in a panic. When the magisters pursued them with demons and dragons, they called to the gods for help, but there was no answer. It's implied that the elves' gods had very recently been severed from them when Tevinter invaded, conquered, and enslaved them. They didn't have time to figure out how to function on their own before a new power came and replaced the old one. Then it happened again with Orlais and the Dales. After a thousand years of slavery they were figuring out how to be a sovereign people again, then got re-conquered, re-subjugated, and forced to start from scratch again. 

 

"Cut off the head, and the body will roll." I'd argue it's not the elves' fault more powerful nations keep kicking them while they're down, then shove them back down when they try to stagger back up again.

 

What's more, the game makes it clear the elves are a minority, with less numbers and less social/political/economic/militaristic power than humans. When much more numerous and armed nation says "you're mine now," there's not much they can do except get killed trying in vain to fight back, comply, or try to stay out of arm's reach. The city elves complied and the Dalish try to stay out of arm's reach. But since humans own all the land the elves live (since the elves aren't allowed to have their own homeland), withhold social/economic opportunities, and have the greater numbers and militaristic might to wipe them out or force them into line if they resist, elves have to coordinate their lives and social structure around the presence of humans. Those elves in contact with humans do what they have to to appease them and make ends meet (living in slavery or inescapable poverty), and Dalish have to stay on the move to keep humans from finding them and slaughtering, conquering, and/or forcefully converting them. (And they try, oh yes.)


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#66
Eliastion

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(...)

I think you don't do justice to either the elves or history ;)

We can say with great deal of certainty that it wasn't just gods disappearance and then Tevinter invasion - there was a civil war, either some kind of splitting the empire or an uprising, or both. It wasn't just lack of leadership but a costly internal struggle that brought Elvhenan to its knees and made invasion possible.

As for the Dales, it wasn't "figuring out how to be sovereign people again" - they had it figured out, it was about 290 years (sorry about "almost 400", that was a calculation error I repeated after wiki), that's a lot of time to establish a country and they did just that. Also, the slavery of the elves lasted about eight hundred years, not thousands, but that's not that important here. Either way, Dales was not a fledgling country, they were probably one of the most powerful nations of their time - Exalted March or not, Orlais conquered a mighty nation, not some bunch of former slaves trying to get their s*it together, even though for different reasons neither Dalish nor Chantry like to remind themselves of the fact that the war was anything but one-sided. And the scattered remnants (those who would later become Dalish) retreating east had supposedly enough power to fight off resident Alamarri tribes to secure said retreat.

 

Basically, while my feelings about the Dalish tend to be mixed, I'm a fan of the Dales - and I try to spread the word about it, since, you know, the truth isn't all that popular. After all, the stereotypical Dalish like to concentrate on "vile humans destroyed the Dales" sob-story and the Chantry goes with the "wild pagan elves living in forest, crushed by the faithful"...

Apparently the part where Dalish (those from the Dales, I mean) conquer Val Royeaux in 2:12 doesn't fit too well with either narrative and nobody likes to emphasize it too much :D



#67
LOLandStuff

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Each god had its own turf and maybe once they disappeared, the elves started blaming each group. Or perhaps the elite were protected by their gods and the slaves rebelled. Can't just throw all the blame on Tevinter when all they did was scavenge what was left. And wasn't there something about the slaves killing their masters while in their sleep once Arlathan fell?

 

Besides, we can't really believe what the elves say about the quickening, they got so many things wrong.



#68
SnowPeaShooter

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Generally speaking, while Maker seems to have some pretense to be all-knowing, all-powerful and perhaps omnipresent, elven gods never aspired to anything of the sort. They're gods, not "God but more of him" (which would be stupid, I don't know of any polytheistic religion that would actually try to present its gods as omnipotent). They're explicitly born from the world, their title as creators doesn't imply creation of something from nothing. Basically, they're presented as powerful, generally benevolent beings that looked after the elves, and they are explicitly stated to be learning about the ways of the world (though that comes from modern Dalish legends, hard to say how it was presented in times of Elvhenan); Dirthamen and Falon'Din pretty much discover how the Beyond and afterlife works, and Elgar'nan brings down the Sun and then he learns that - ooops, the Sun really is important if we want things to, well, grow.
In a way, Dalish seem to look up to their gods more like they would do to parents/teachers/older siblings (in the most general meaning possible) rather than beings as fundamentally different as the Maker is compared to mortals - and that's after two thousand years of passing down old tales, something that would be generally most likely to further distance mortals from gods rather than bring them closer.
Basically, the question of elven gods divinity is a question of "what is gods" more than "do they fit the definition". Tevinter Old Gods are supposedly "not created" (I'm not sure where this comes from, but I'm certain I've read about them coming from outside Creation), but elven ones are explicitly part of the world, if the world was created by someone, they automatically were too. If a god is supposed to be something fundamentally different than mortals - they're not gods. If a god is a powerful benevolent being somebody revers as such - yep, gods they are. I'm pretty sure that if a Dalish were to believe this whole story about Andraste and Maker, he would call the former a human goddess and the latter - who knows, perhaps he would avoid lumping him with gods at all, seeing as it's a being on yet another level of existence.
 

 

 

Oh I am never the essay type....................

 

About the Maker being an all-knowing, all-powerful and omnipresent god, I must say this is definitely the idea the Chantry is trying to present. The Chantry said the Maker created ALL things, and there are no other gods other than the Maker. But guess what, they also said that THE DWAEVES WERE NOT AMONG HIS CREATIONS, so are they saying the dwarves created themselves? There is also the no other gods thing. If like the chantry said, that the Maker is all-powerful, then how come we have the Old Gods who are, as described by the Chantry, ancient entities who can contest the Maker for power? How could the magisters, allegedly persuaded by the Old Gods, able to enter the Golden City and corrupt it? The Maker should have been able to dust them off like nothing.

 

Furthermore, we have Fan'Heral the Elven God basically saying he doesn't know about a Maker back in his day (in a banter Cas asked whether he believes in the Maker, he said he is open to NEW ideas); we have Justice from DA2 saying that spirits do not know whether the Maker exists, and spirits who believe in the Maker may think so because they saw him in the dreams of the mortals, and that demons either do not care or think the Maker is a false figure; and we have Cory who went to the Golden City said it was already black when he got there and it was empty. So how did the worship of the Maker take root? It happened because the disciples of Andraste, the supposed wife of this Maker, collected her teachings into a book called The Chant of Light and found a Chantry based on that. Does this book proved the Maker to be an all-knowing, all-powerful and omnipresent god by just SAYING it? Does it even prove the Maker existed?

 

Even if Andraste did speak to a "god" and this "god" did inspire her to fight against the Tervinter, what is to say that this "god" isn't just a spirit? Couldn't Fan'Heral have walk the Fade, found the distressed dreaming Andraste, and then groomed her up for the leading position against the corrupted Tervinter? I am not saying that he did, but someone with his mindset, position and power definitely could have done it. So what is to say that the Maker is so much better than the Elven Gods?

 

I fully understand that an all-knowing, all-powerful and omnipresent being is a higher being than the Elven Gods and the Old Gods who apparently can be weakened, corrupted, sealed away, transferred from one vessel to the next, and went into slumber from time to time. But I think you are the one who is missing the point. There is nothing to show that the Maker isn't capable of doing exactly the same. In fact, a lot of what the Chantry said about the Maker made me think that he is a far-fetched example for what can be described as an all-knowing, all-powerful and omnipresent being. Simply SAYING something is all-knowing, all-powerful and omnipresent can be telling the truth, telling a semi-truth, or fabricating a glorified fiction. I am just picking at the middle of the spectrum, and I doubt BioWare will ever give us an explicit answer.  

 

At last, about the polytheistic religion in RL, I am personally a believer of a polytheistic religion. In my religion, we don't have any omnipresent "god", but we do have omnipresent "forces" (or a force? it's not in English) that we believed to have (has) created the universe, created all our gods, and kept the balance of the universe. "It" is just not a God and is nothing like a person.



#69
SnowPeaShooter

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I think you miss the point, really. The Dalish don't have a king (or any other governing body) because it's decisively impractical for their way of life. Thy're nomads, they live in countless small (a couple hundreds at most, usually more like a couple dozen people) clans and those clans are VERY different, they pay lip service to those same core beliefs, but I bet every clan has its own spin on them. We know some clans are pretty much wandering bandits, others are extremely reclusive, others yet trade and interact with humans on regular basis. And that's just one aspect of them. I bet there are Dalish traditionalists (we need to find and preserve lore), progressive Dalish (we're the elves, we live NOW, we need to build on whatever foundations we have, not just repeat old tales and excavate ruins) and stick-it-up-your-arse Dalish (we're good as we are, why would we settle and trade our freedom for walls and a roof). I'm pretty sure we heard of a clan that uses elvish as its everyday language for internal communication while we also hear that Dalish never reconstructed their language. The only conclusion seems to be that there are at least two elvish languages: that half-recovered "pure" one and the everyday "modern dalish", most likely with lots of words just created when needed, or borrowed from human languages (which can be seen as keeping the language alive by some and desacrating it by others). Despite all the kinship they feel, they're a single nation in the same sense Free Marches are: enough for them to stick together, but much too little to actually unite in foreseeable future.

And as for their gods/god-kings making elves unable to self-govern now, that is simply not true. Elves did create, pretty much from scratch, a powerful nation - Dales, that lasted almost four hundred years (that's about as long as united Ferelden exists), and they were destroyed in a war with Orlais that could've ended the other way - Exalted March was ultimately succesfull, but the Dales did actually conquer Val Royeaux (despite EM already being in effect). Dales fell, but definitely not without a fight and old elven fortresses still stand as a testament to the nation's power at its peak - all this without any god-kings ;)

 

The current way of life of the Dalish is exactly what prevents them from "getting back their old ways". They are broken up into small clans, most of the clans need to migrate constantly to avoid hostility from the locals, and doesn't matter where they go all of the clans need to constantly adapt to their immediate surroundings to survive. How is this a sustainable lifestyle for population growth and cultural developments? How could they ever go back to the days of the Dale or even Alathan, doing what they are doing now? As I said before, they lack sustainability. If they continue to about their current way of life, they will just fade away, one clan by one clan, like the bubbles in the foam. The city elves are even worse. They are 2nd class citizens if not slaves in human cities, how do they survive if they don't convert to the human culture? That's why they need a king, someone who can make or force them to drop their current lives and carve out a kingdom of their own, or there will be no future for the elves as a race.

 

About the empire of the Dales, the following is  what I got from codex 94, The Death of Elandrin. Basically, an elf guy fell in love with a human girl. This elf guy had 2 sisters, one was killed by humans for "wondering too near the hunters' path", which made the other sister really pissed. However, this elf guy continued to see his lover and eventually decided to convert to the Chantry to be with her. The sister found out about it, decided to bring a bunch of pals to deal with the elf guy before he eloped. Unfortunately, the sister saw the human girl first, and shot her to death in haste when the girl ran toward her. Both the elf guy and other human villagers saw this, so elves and humans fought in chaos and the elf guy died in the process. This is the actions of a mob, not of a nation with any adequate leadership and wisdom. This is what started the 2nd exalted march. 

 

Just because the elves in the Dales had some fearsome mages and warriors and have collected enough powerful artifacts from the remains of Alathan to protect themselves for 400 years did not make them a successful nation. Where are the politics, diplomacy, trades, spy organizations, law enforcement and border patrols  that could have prevented the elf girl from being killed by humans and the mob from rushing into human borders? A nation is so much more than fortresses. Having elven god-kings could have saved them A LOT of the work, but if they don't know how to manage those things without a god-king, they are doomed.



#70
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He just wants to be new Morrigan and gets his own "Wolf Hunt DLC" that's all :P



#71
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they also said that THE DWAEVES WERE NOT AMONG HIS CREATIONS

 

Actually Chantry teaching is that they are the furthest away from the Maker.

 

As in they turned their backs on the true god to worship themselves.


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#72
SnowPeaShooter

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I think you just described most people in general, yet hold these flaws against the elves while conveniently forgetting that most humans in the game and real life often act similarly when in similar circumstances. (Remember how Thedas spiraled into chaos when the Circles fell and the Chantry split?) Most people rely on a select few in some sort of leadership position to ensure their well-being, make widespread decisions, defend them from foreign powers, et cetera (whether it's monarchs, ogliarchs, elected officials in republics, religious leaders in theocrasies, etc) and become scattered and disorganized when it's suddenly changed or taken away; especially in circumstances beyond their control.

 

There's a saying "cut off the head, and the body will roll." Yet you blame the elven body for not instantly catching their footing, finding a new head, putting it on, then going about their lives as if they never lost their head in the first place the second it was severed?

 

I only just saw your post. I actually agree with a lot of the things you said, and I was probably a bit hasty with my words in that post. I just finished my Lavellan playthrough and I really feel for the elves. They really are a dying breed, and they really will die if nothing is done. Especially since I romanced Solas in the playthrough, I can feel the immense sadness and the conflicted feelings he has for the modern elves, and I think my Lavellan would be willing to do a lot for Solas, not just to help out a lover, but also out of the love and responsibility she has for her people.

 

About my comment on the god-kings, I certainly see them as great idols for people to rely on. My biggest reason to dislike the system of gods also being kings is that they are too powerful and long lived. People in that system rely not on individuals, but the god power of those specific individuals. The position of these god-kings thus cannot be easily replaced by anyone else. This unchanging system lacks an adequate way of choosing a top from the second-in-commands and it makes the mid-to-bottom level people especially vulnerable to change. If people in Elvhenan had separated their gods from the roles of kings before all the gods were gone they might had a chance, but how could they change the Gods' system if they were no god? 

 

Jumping back to modern elves, I think they would benefit greatly if they can have both a king and the helping hands of a God......in terms of trying to carve out an empire. Land ownership should not be a huge problem if they just think about where the humans got their lands from originally...........but war is cruel.



#73
SnowPeaShooter

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Actually Chantry teaching is that they are the furthest away from the Maker.

 

As in they turned their backs on the true god to worship themselves.

 

A lot of people "turned their backs on the true god" to worship others, including the Chasind, the Dalish, the Qun followers, in addition to the dwarves.

 

I got the "Maker did not create Dwarves" info from the DA wiki. Apparently they have a source for it, and it is Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, vol. 1, p. 143



#74
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Just so as you know Cole gives that message even if you didn't romance Solas, so I don't think that's for the romance. I've gotten it on my female human after all.



#75
Addai

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Just so as you know Cole gives that message even if you didn't romance Solas, so I don't think that's for the romance. I've gotten it on my female human after all.

He's talking about Cole, but it could easily apply to an Inquisitor he loves. I mean, it would be weird if it didn't.