93 réponses à ce sujet

[Eliastion]

(...)I fully understand that an all-knowing, all-powerful and omnipresent being is a higher being than the Elven Gods and the Old Gods who apparently can be weakened, corrupted, sealed away, transferred from one vessel to the next, and went into slumber from time to time. But I think you are the one who is missing the point. There is nothing to show that the Maker isn't capable of doing exactly the same. In fact, a lot of what the Chantry said about the Maker made me think that he is a far-fetched example for what can be described as an all-knowing, all-powerful and omnipresent being. Simply SAYING something is all-knowing, all-powerful and omnipresent can be telling the truth, telling a semi-truth, or fabricating a glorified fiction. I am just picking at the middle of the spectrum, and I doubt BioWare will ever give us an explicit answer.   (...)

But I'm not talking about what the Maker is or whether it even exists. I'm talking about philosophy and religion. Chantry insists Maker is pretty much omnipotent, Dalish never say their gods are. That's what the two religions say. I'm not heere to discuss whether the dogma is based on some absolute truth about universe. I'm not here to dig through ages of tradition, heaps of possible mistakes introduced between Andraste's teaching and formalization of Chant of Light, many possible alterations introduced later by the Chantry, I don't even care here whether Andraste was any sort of  prophet or just a mage with big ego/spirit friend/schizophrenia. What I say is the fact that calling elven gods gods depends on definition of being a god. And that Maker and elven gods don't really contradict themselves as elven gods are simply part of  the world - powerful, benevolent beings but not really supernatural the same way Maker or Old Gods are (the latter said by their worshipers to come from out of the Creation).

Existance or not of Maker as a real entity doesn't affect my position here, as we're talking about religion and if a religion says they worship an omnipotent god then yeah, they worship an omnipotent god. Who might not exist, or might not be omnipotent - but we're talking about mainstream religion here, not heresies stemming from it.

 

As for the Dalish

 

(...)As I said before, they lack sustainability.(...)

Either sustainability means what you think it means, or you somehow missed  the fact that Dalish did survive the last couple hundred years and can be found in all of Thedas. There is no inclination of them vanishing from Thedas, really. Yeah, they won't rebuild Dales while being nomads, but how is that relevant to anything? And with City Elves your claim is even more ridiculous, yeah, they are second class citizens, yeah, they are poor and their culture is far from that of the Dales. And what about that? Their ages old "city elf" culture seems pretty stable as it is now, how exactly would it vanish if neither city elves nor humans want the elves to assimilate into human society?

 

 

That's why they need a king, someone who can make or force them to drop their current lives and carve out a kingdom of their own, or there will be no future for the elves as a race.

First of all, If I were to find a way to deny elves as a race any future, it would be taking up arms and going to war to carve out a kingdom of their own. Yeah, such an effort could really threaten the very existance of elves. And even if it were successful (most likely it would require something like a boon the dalish warden can get from King/Queen of Ferelden to start with) - what you propose starts with yet another destruction of elven culture. Because, despite what you seem to believe, the Dalish have their culture (more than one, really) and city elves have their. You want someone to pretty much destroy it and force them into some artificial new situation, completely alien to them. If some "king" appeared and somehow managed to "force them to drop their current lives" - how exactly is that different to what Tevinter and Chantry did? Because he means well fro them? He still denies them their way of life. And what about religion? I take it you need a unified cult of the elven gods - so you need to forcibly convert all those who currently worship Maker or have their version of elven gods' worship that isn't perfectly compatible with the king's vision.

 

 

(...)This is the actions of a mob, not of a nation with any adequate leadership and wisdom. This is what started the 2nd exalted march. 

Red Crossing was only one of many border incidents. The borders are obviously pretty fluid there, but the reason for 2nd Exalted March? We KNOW that Red Crossing is just a symbol. The true reason for Exalted March was the orlesian war against Dales going badly. And I mean "elven army marching to Val Royeaux after capturing Montsimmard" badly. And did you take a minute to look at Dalish (I mean, that in Dales) architecture? We get to see (and take for ourselves) one of the castles they built. It is pretty impressive. Especially considering that it stands there for a couple hundred years. You say that a nation is so much more than fortresses, and that's true - but have you thought about logistical implications of actually building a fortress like that?

For their time, the Dales were a powerful nation, regardless of its isolationist policy and the blurred, wild borders being... well, blurred and wild. But, of course, if you try and apply modern-day Earth standards, then yeah, they would be pretty uncivilized, sure.

[Carmen_Willow]

Alistair is not exactly a boy, he is a man-becoming! Being forced to spend much of his life in the Chantry against his will has slowed down his manturity. But I see in him the man he could and will be, and that's what I adored about him. That nascent capability for greatness that you can help bloom. I saw it even early in the game. He doesn't want to lead; he's not in love with power, but when he has to do so, such as usher us into the wilds, he does it well (confronting what's his name about his fears). He doesn't cower before either Flemeth or Morrigan, and despite teasing, he's not afraid to show emotions, despite Morrigan's snark and cutting remarks.

 

People confuse the fact that he's not in love with power with weakness. There are a lot of strong people in the world who don't like telling other people what to do. When Morrigan confronts him, he admits it, openly. He doesn't lie about it. When forced by circumstance (me) to become King, he does it well, makes a decision that's good for the nation with regard to Anora, leads the troops, gives a stirring speech. He's a man-becoming, and he's going to be a great man.

 

Alistair is a great character of possibility.

 

Cullen is the wounded healer.

 

Wounded grievously by his torture in Origins and the betrayal of his values by his Commander in DA:II, he none-the-less finds within himself the strength and courage to carry on and find a new goal worthy of pursuing. He, unlike Alistair, likes to lead, likes to command and does it well, but he wants to do it in service of the "good" as he perceives it. The Inquisition gives him that chance. He wants to help the world "heal" be better.

[TheChubbyDragon]

Abelas called you a shemlen? I didn't hear that.

It may depend on your choices. For me he did and I was an elf.

[SnowPeaShooter]

(...)

 

OK. First of all, about religion. Sorry it never occurred to me that you were trying to talk about just the teachings of those religions. When it comes to just religious teachings, I would not argue with anything you say. But then why did you come up to lecture me on their religious teachings anyway? Before you, I only remembered saying that I believed all those gods essentially are beings that belong to the same category. This belief of mine is still unchanged. It has nothing to do with the religious teachings of any religions in DA, just something I inferred based on the info I got playing the DA games. 

 

Secondly, about "converting the city elves who have already converted to Andraste and developed a city elf culture of their own", I never said they need to be converted back, as long as they are happy with where they are. About the Dalish elves, however, despite their differences, a fraction of them still want to “restore the old ways” and some of them were willing to go as far as summoning demons to restore some artifacts, so at least for that fraction of elves, converting is not necessary. What I dislike about the current condition of the Dalish is the fact that they are mostly just scraping by and that those small clans get whip out too easily. While your idea of sustainability seems to be the continuity of existence, my idea focuses on obtaining a fertile ground for future growth and prosperity, and that is what I think the Dalish doesn't have. Will grouping them together destroy part of their culture? Consider this, how do they maintain their culture if they need to devote so much energy just to survive? There will always be new cultural elements being developed. Think about the Snow Elves in Skyrim, they once had the most prosperous cities, and now they are just blind elfy goblins living in tunnels. But even elfy goblins have a culture and a way of life, shouldn't they be content?

 

Even if an elven "empire" is to be established, I never said one must hand pick all the elves and brainwash them before stuffing them all inside. Think about Fairel, he took off with his kins to the surface and built their own city. Their starting number could not be more than a few thousands, in fact, they might have only a few hundreds, yet they made a fine living, built a great thaig and such, in the empty land known as the hissing waste (before his sons ruined things for him). Similarly, the first step of establishing this "elven empire", if such a thing is to happen, would not be waging war against the human world, but to start a permanent settlement. The land for this settlement doesn't need to be big, and doesn't need to come from a boom or conquest. In my opinion, the current state of Thedas is hinted with instabilities. It should not be too difficult to steal a piece of land at a strategic location when the others are at war. Or, just find a piece of land that no one wants, like the hissing waste, where the dwarves built a thaig once. Any form of expansionism, be it cultural or otherwise, can wait until the initial developments are done. After all, Rome was not built in a day.  

 

About the Red Crossing thing, I realized I should not have used the word "reason" when talking about he codex. "Excuse" would have been a much better word choice. I understand the Orlasians mainly started the exalted march on the Dales to prepare for future invasion of Ferelden. Still, I think giving them that excuse is a demonstration of governmental incompetency. Even the Inquisition has its own spies and diplomats and generals and can deal with troubles in different angles. The government of the Dales really had its false, in my opinion.

[Moirin]

He's talking about Cole, but it could easily apply to an Inquisitor he loves. I mean, it would be weird if it didn't.

 

I'm aware he's talking about Cole, but the person I quoted and the video says this message is because of the romance, I was simply pointing out that it is not romance only.

[TK514]

I'm in the camp that thinks he broke it off because he's going to do something the Inquisitor (and probably most of Modern Thedas) will consider horrific and possibly unforgivable, and it would be awkward if he had to betray and kill his girlfriend to achieve his goals. I'm a little surprised he didn't look for a way to stuff her in a mirror until the shouting was over, since that seems to be his chosen way of dealing with things. He does seem to be the "Better to ask forgiveness after the fact than try to explain it, because it is not a thing you can understand" sort.

Then again, there's always DLC. He may have his chance yet.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm in the amp that thinks he broke it off because he's going to do something the Inquisitor (and probably most of Modern Thedas) will consider horrific and possibly unforgivable, and it would be awkward if he had to betray and kill his girlfriend to achieve his goals.  I'm a little surprised he didn't look for a way to stuff her in a mirror until the shouting was over, since that seems to be his chosen way of dealing with things.  He does seem to be the "Better to ask forgiveness after the fact than try to explain it, because it is not a thing you can understand" sort.

 

Then again, there's always DLC.  He may have his chance yet.

 

So romantic.

 

Do you think he'd only stuff his beloved in a mirror if she said she loved him and wanted to be with him, no matter what?

[TheChubbyDragon]

Patrick Weekes, Solas' writer, gave some insight in a NerdAppropriate Interview. (You can hear it around the 55-58min mark.)

 

Basically, during the final romance scene, Solas was planning on telling Lavellan "the truth" about himself, including his identity as Fen'Harel. He was just about to, but he "chickened out" at the last second and twisted it into telling you the truth about your vallaslin instead. Then when he went in for the kiss, he again was about to just give up, forget the past, lose himself in the relationship, etc. But when he pulled away, he realized he has in too deep and to break it off then and there "or... he will have betrayed himself."

 

Cole can also give some insight into his motivation in party banter post-breakup.

 

• Cole: (If the Inquisitor had vallaslin removed.) Ar lasa mala revas. You are so beautiful. But then you turned away. Why?
• Solas: I had no choice.
• Cole: She is bare-faced, embarrassed, and she doesn't know. She thinks it's because of her.

Or:

• Cole: (If the Inquisitor's vallaslin was not removed.) Stop, you're perfect exactly as you are. But then you turned away. Why?
• Solas: I had no choice.
• Cole: She feels her face, marked, marred without malice. She didn't know. She thinks it's why you walked away.
• Solas: You cannot heal this, Cole. Please, let it go.
• Inquisitor: Perhaps Cole can get a better answer from you than I did.
• Cole: He hurts, an old pain from before, when everything sang the same.
• Cole: You're real, and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything, but it can't.
• Cole: They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them... (Gasps.) Where did it go?
• Solas: I apologize, Cole. That is not a pain you can heal.

 

Finally, if you talk to Cole after the endgame, Solas leaves a parting message for you both.

 

 

EDIT: It seems to be implied that Solas did something terrible in the past (likely something that led to the present state of the world and the People's place in it) and is trying to fix his mistake. (Maybe he actually did lock up the Pantheon, which would explain who "they" that "sleep" are, meaning the Dalish likely aren't completely wrong.) Hence his desire to use the Orb and Corypheus to unlock it, then his desperation driving him to absorb "Flemythal's" power after the Orb breaks. But whatever he hopes to accomplish seems to be something so perilous and/or terrible that he's afraid that his beloved will reject him for it, or will get dragged into misery and peril along with him if she tries to help him, so it's likely he feels he has to break things off with her to keep her from getting involved.

 

DOUBLE-EDIT: What Mims said. The above Edit was just a guesstimate based on the above information. Until given further information, we just don't know.

 

 

Well, we don't know exactly why he decided to break it off. But we do have some pretty good hints, and I don't personally believe immortality/mortality is one of them.

 

According to Weekes, Solas was never planning to break it off with Lavellan when he took her to Crestwood. He had every intention of coming clean to her, and letting go of the past. But at the last moment, he backs out and tells her about the meaning of the vallaslin instead. It was either Lavellan or his mission, and he ultimately chose his mission. He is the one responsible for the fall of the People. The burden, at least in his mind, of restoration is upon him. 

 

Why not let Lavellan in on it? Solas tells Cole that the path he is heading down is not one he'd wish on his worst enemy. I don't know if he necessarily expects to die, but he doesn't have an exit strategy. He doesn't want to drag her down with him. Solas's plans have an exceptionally bad track record. 

 

At the moment we can only speculate what his plans entail. It could be that the ramifications of his actions are so morally grey that he knows Lavellan would never approve, and does not wish her to have to suffer guilt by association. It could be that he intends to free the elven gods, knowing full well they'll probably enact a revenge upon him. Until we have more information, we just don't know. 

 

 

You both make excellent points. While it is true that I have heard these theories before, I guess I didn't want to believe them. For me, anyway, those theories hurt more than thinking he left the Inquisitor because of immortality/mortality. It would seem I pulled something from nothing to avoid getting hurt. Lol. After all, the person behind the controller is actually the one in a romance with Solas.

 

This is so silly of me, but it’s like a good book or story and I guess it’s inevitable not to have some emotional attachment, but still silly. This ending sucks, especially after getting my dream ending in Dragon Age: Origins with Alistair. HAHA

 

You both are right and I guess we will have to wait and see what happens next.

 

I just want my Lavellan to leave the Inquisition and her clan behind to live in the forest alone so she can heal, preferably somewhere majestic and beautiful like the Emerald Graves. All she wants to do is wander the forest with her Royal Sixteen Hart companion. They will be best friends and care for one another (kind of like Mulan and Khan, if you know your Disney), all while Lavellan learns the secrets of the Ancient Elves. Maybe she'll meet Felassan’s spirit in the fade, because you know, he was my favorite character from the Dragon Age Franchise. Lol. Or maybe she will try to find Abelas and appeal to him in hopes of studying under him.

 

Whatever happens, I hope Solas or Lavellan doesn't die!

[LOLandStuff]

So romantic.

 

Do you think he'd only stuff his beloved in a mirror if she said she loved him and wanted to be with him, no matter what?

 

That sounds like an abusive relation to me.

[Dean_the_Young]

That sounds like an abusive relation to me.

 

It would be easy to argue that it already was. Solas was deceptive, manipulative, and the power imbalance alone would bring up ethical questions.

[TheJediSaint]

It would be easy to argue that it already was. Solas was deceptive, manipulative, and the power imbalance alone would bring up ethical questions.

That just screams boyfriend material, doesn't it?

[Dean_the_Young]

That just screams boyfriend material, doesn't it?

 

Or girlfriend. Morrigan's romance was outright exploitative.

[TheJediSaint]

Or girlfriend. Morrigan's romance was outright exploitative.

 

True.  But fictional relationships don't have to be healthy to be enjoyable.

[Dean_the_Young]

True.  But fictional relationships don't have to be healthy to be enjoyable.

 

Part of the 'loving characters that are made miserable for our enjoyment' mechanic.

[TheJediSaint]

Part of the 'loving characters that are made miserable for our enjoyment' mechanic.

Well, given the nature of RPGs, there also an element of vicarious misery.  Players generally empathize with their Player Characters, after all.

[LOLandStuff]

Well, I think he would have been miserable staying with Lavellan what with the orb destroyed and all that. Guy was more sad over the orb than leaving her.

 

I imagine his relationship with the orb is similar to this:

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, given the nature of RPGs, there also an element of vicarious misery.  Players generally empathize with their Player Characters, after all.

 

Players also generally play to relish in the power-morality fantasy. The flip side of 'I want to save the day' is 'I want the day to need saving.' Ergo, wanting other people to be miserable so that they can be saved.

[TheJediSaint]

Players also generally play to relish in the power-morality fantasy. The flip side of 'I want to save the day' is 'I want the day to need saving.' Ergo, wanting other people to be miserable so that they can be saved.

 

Well, I don't see EA financing Dragon Age: Beach Vacation any time soon.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Well, I don't see EA financing Dragon Age: Beach Vacation any time soon.

 

You'd be wrong.