105 réponses à ce sujet

[Vordish]

I do so love it when the topic of "capital punishment" comes up and I see so many different people say they are against it in real life. Funny, I would wager money that the vast majority, if not practically every single individual, who says such things have not experienced the true horror of the evil that a human being can inflict upon another.

 

I am not inclined to think that someone who experiences someone butcher your family in front of your face, after raping and torturing them, would truly be willing to state that they do not wish for that person to be dead. Sit there and think about what would happen in such a situation. You would have to see and hear the events unfolding before you...and it wouldnt be over quickly. There are short-term and long-term repercussions to living with such pain that is inevitably inflicted on the family members who survive such ordeals over their loved ones.

 

Arguments for "rehabilitation" are irrelevant. They committed an evil and the scales need to be balanced. It is not fair to the next-of-kin or family nor to the one who is now dead that these people still get to live after doing what they did. You want penance? Execute them. They will never commit such deeds again and it will serve as a deterrent to anyone else who gets it into their head to commit such atrocities.

 

Capital Punishment is needed.

 

The real debate begins when you start to argue which crimes actually warrant such a penalty.

[omgodzilla]

Erimond? **** yeah, I always chop off his head. I'd love to make him tranquil just to make him p!ss his pants but for some stupid reason, the game doesn't give the tranquility option of warriors/rogues. 

 

Alexius? Yep. I don't care what his reasons were. He's a bastard that ruined ALOT of lives. Plus he kicked Teagan out of his castle. That alone should be punishable by death. 

 

The Mayor? Yeah, seems like a good PR move to execute the evil mayor that killed so many innocent lives. Either that or give him to Ferelden. Its a nice propaganda tool.

 

Mistress Whatever the hell her name was? Yep. She also got way too many innocent people killed. Seems like another good PR move to kill her. Either that or steal all her money just to be a dick lol. 

 

So yeah, I'm a ruthless bastard. But then again, the executions are some of the very limited number of choices in the game that actually allow you to be ruthless. its all still pretty tame compared to Renegade Shepard or the Warden. 

 

Of course none of this is representative of my opinion on capital punishment in real life. Our justice system isn't perfect and so there is the possibility of convicting innocent people by accident so its too risky to use the death penalty. I just can't see the justification for potentially killing innocent people. If our justice system always did get accurate convictions then I wouldn't mind using the death penalty. I sure as hell wouldn't mind seeing some ISIS bastards being burnt alive. 

[KaiserShep]

I imagine the Red Templars would probably have just killed Mistress Poulin and taken everyone if she didn't sell the quarry to them, though it's surprising that they didn't just take it by force right off the bat.

[omgodzilla]

I imagine the Red Templars would probably have just killed Mistress Poulin and taken everyone if she didn't sell the quarry to them, though it's surprising that they didn't just take it by force right off the bat.

 

Yeah but I doubt that's much consolation to the family members of the slain or to the people of the region/country who hear about this incident. She will likely be considered a pariah and a monster, much like the mayor. People don't generally care about what could've been and would rather focus more on what actually happened. You can't use reason agains't people who were so emotionally traumatized by her actions. Just as you can't expect the family member of a civilian who was accidentally killed by a US drone strike intended for a terrorist leader to listen to reason instead of just being pissed at their family member's killers.  Killing or atleast imprisoning Poulin (don't remember if that was an option) seems like a good PR move imo. 

[Hazegurl]

I judge based on my Quizzy and the world he lives in, as well as what is best for the situation and Inquisition.  I put people to death when I believed they deserved it and their useless to me anyway.

 

Mistress Poulin- People died very painfully because of her. Not once did she reach out for aid once she saw what the Red Templars were and were doing to people. She's a traitor and traitors die. I don't care about her sob story.

 

Alexius- The only thing that keeps him alive is the new magic he created and my Quizzy wanted to bang Dorian. Nothing more.

 

Mayor- Send to Fereldan and let them kill him. I actually believe him when he says the place was overrun with the Blight and people were probably spreading it. But I use him to strength ties with Fereldan. But I wouldn't mind killing him myself.

 

Erimond- Death is too kind. Tranquility.

 

Knight captain Denam- I hand him to the Templars for Execution.

 

Fiona- Execution by combat.

 

@Kaiser, I think the reason they didn't take it is because they flew under the radar by buying the mine legally. If they had attacked and took it, Poulin would have no choice but to seek aid right away or someone from that town would have. By using her, she sent clueless people to work there, which provided the Temps with a fresh supply of "workers" and she remained quiet about it which allowed them to operate uninterrupted. She also benefited the most from the deal. She made a profit and got a poor mine off her hands. I do like that my noble could take all her profits from the mine and leave her poor again. lol!!

[nightscrawl]

I don't really feel you should have linked it to the real world death penalty. Ultimately this is a game set in a fictional world where your actions boil down to code and pixels. You can certainly be against the death penalty in real life and gleefully be a mass murderer or a tyrannical despot in a game.

 

That said, the only person that I execute is Livius and for similar reasons that you give. He was and is convinced that Corypheus will win the day, is power-mad, does not care who he steps on to get it, and shows no remorse. There is no redemption for this man. He is absolutely the worst example of a Tevinter mage, and a Magister, in the entire game, barring Corypheus himself.

 

My first pt was as a mage and I made him tranquil, but since then I have felt that this was inadequate. Sure, for a brief window he will have this fate looming over him, but afterward, what then? He will be an unfeeling logic machine, not regretting the loss of his previous self. So it seems ultimately pointles to make him tranquil. My second play as a warrior I didn't have that option so I did execute him, which I feel is better anyway. I might choose the Warden path but we aren't told exactly what that will entail. Are they going to execute him themselves, or attempt the Joining (which might be the same thing)? Killing him myself is the only way to ensure that it is carried out.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 The death-penalty is for the extremely rotten and extremely dangerous, IMO.

 

^Erimond fits the bill, so I had him executed.

 

I did not see fit to execute anyone else, though.

[Moirin]

I've only ever executed Erimond. I wish it was an option for Samson.

[KaiserShep]

Yeah but I doubt that's much consolation to the family members of the slain or to the people of the region/country who hear about this incident. She will likely be considered a pariah and a monster, much like the mayor. People don't generally care about what could've been and would rather focus more on what actually happened. You can't use reason agains't people who were so emotionally traumatized by her actions. Just as you can't expect the family member of a civilian who was accidentally killed by a US drone strike intended for a terrorist leader to listen to reason instead of just being pissed at their family member's killers.  Killing or atleast imprisoning Poulin (don't remember if that was an option) seems like a good PR move imo. 

 

Sure, and that's not entirely beyond consideration when picking a judgment.

 

With that in mind, there is absolutely nothing superior in the options of execution or imprisonment to having her use her ill-gotten money to rebuild the town, and leaving her fate to the people of Sahrnia. After all, she isn't automatically free to go. Once she's done using her money to help the injured parties, they're the ones that decide what to do with her, and if they decide that her debt is repaid, then justice was served and I didn't have to kill anyone. I think that's a pretty good PR move myself.

[omgodzilla]

Sure, and that's not entirely beyond consideration when picking a judgment.

 

With that in mind, there is absolutely nothing superior in the options of execution or imprisonment to having her use her ill-gotten money to rebuild the town, and leaving her fate to the people of Sahrnia. After all, she isn't automatically free to go. Once she's done using her money to help the injured parties, they're the ones that decide what to do with her, and if they decide that her debt is repaid, then justice was served and I didn't have to kill anyone. I think that's a pretty good PR move myself.

Yeah I forgot about that option. It could work if she's kept under guard so she can't escape in any way. 

[Eveangaline]

I don't see the judgements as punishment so much as "preventing further damage" if the person is dangerous, don't leave them alive, kill them. If you think they're not going to do much damage but can be channeled to a useful purpose, do that. Jailing anyone or making them tranquil didn't make sense to me. I think the only person who didn't get used or dead was the mayor of crestwood and I just figured he's fereldens problem, not mine.

[Qun00]

I suppose I simply operate on common sense.

For the well intentioned and merely misguided, just something to help them redeem themselves.

For criminals that aren't the worst, prison or something on that level.

For the vilest types who will never change aka Erimond and others, it's either death or tranquility.

My characters only vary a little in that sense, as in just a little harsher or just a little kinder.

With that said, I do have some regrets like not sentencing Ser Ruth to forced labor to teach the ever self-righteous Grey Wardens a lesson by example.

I also wish I had chosen prison for Erimond instead of giving him what he wanted. Hearing the news about his god's failure would've been a fitting punishment.

[Kulyok]

In Dragon Age, there's no protective bubble created by police, army and the courts. There's literally only the rule of the strongest - Howe could've easily gotten away with slaughtering the entire Cousland family and taking their lands. So, yes, a ruler has to imprison and execute his enemies, otherwise the malcontents would grow and it would lead to civil war and revolution.

 

I never executed anyone as my Inquisitor, because I'm not interested in the strong powerful Inquisition - on the contrary, I want it humbled and disbanded immediately past DAI. But as Marquis de Serault in the Last Court? I would execute my enemies any day, because there's no other choice, if I wanted to keep my power.

 

Honestly, I never understood why Celene executed Gaspard but spared Florianne(who got sent to the Inquisition for judgement and was possibly recruited as an ally), who actually wanted to kill her. 

 

Aaand I liked Erimond. The guy was a cunning ruthless handsome murderer. Pride of Tevinter. Just the way I like 'em.

[Ieldra]

@Vordish:

You miss the point. The question is not whether there are acts that deserve it. Clearly there are. The question is: can you be certain enough of knowing the truth to justify a punishment that is as irreversible as death? Maybe others feel differently, but I'd rather give 100 criminals less punishment than they deserve than kill one innocent because I didn't know some critical detail at the time of judgment.

 

In DAI, that question usually doesn't come up since you know what Erimond did, what Florianne did, what Rainier did. Basically, you always know "they did it", and most of the time you also know why. That's why I feel comfortable executing Erimond. RL cases are rarely that clear. Also, motivation matters. Take Mistress Poulin. Do you really feel justified executing her, even though her actions resulted in some horrible deaths?

 

@Eveangeline:

Yeah, that's my usual reasoning with my main Inquisitor. If someone can still be of use, why kill them? I kill only those either completely unrepentant, so that I could expect a repeat should they ever get free again for some unfathomable reason, and those too dangerous to leave alive for some other reason.

[Roamingmachine]

@Vordish:

You miss the point. The question is not whether there are acts that deserve it. Clearly there are. The question is: can you be certain enough of knowing the truth to justify a punishment that is as irreversible as death? Maybe others feel differently, but I'd rather give 100 criminals less punishment than they deserve than kill one innocent because I didn't know some critical detail at the time of judgment.

 

In DAI, that question usually doesn't come up since you know what Erimond did, what Florianne did, what Rainier did. Basically, you always know "they did it", and most of the time you also know why. That's why I feel comfortable executing Erimond. RL cases are rarely that clear. Also, motivation matters. Take Mistress Poulin. Do you really feel justified executing her, even though her actions resulted in some horrible deaths?

 

I'd rather have a few innocent (of that particular crime) die than give a single monster another chance to express himself.  Reasonable doubt is a good enough threshold. Mistakes happen, but such is life.

 

In inquisition, anyone who has sufficently annoyed me/ judged be heinous enough by me gets the chopping block unless a crueler option presents itself. The diffrence to real life is of course that it isn't a court of law, but the court of the inquisitor where there exists no higher will or law than that of the inquisitor.

[daveliam]

Yeah, I'm a bleeding heart who's against capital punishment in real life.  And I'm fully aware that I speak from a place of privilege since I've never had any experiences in my life with this first hand.  Perhaps my mind would change if something were to happen to someone I love.  Perhaps not. 

 

But, that being said, this isn't about that, since I'm playing a character.  In real life, I also have an issue with wandering into random houses and just taking piles of money, but not in the game.  So I tend to play my characters to be different than me.

 

In DA: I, I've gotten three characters through several judgments.

 

My qunari warrior is a total 'knight in shining armor' boyscout goody-goody, so he has not executed anyone.  Even Erimond.  He always chooses the 'redemption' option.  (Erimond was given to the Wardens to judge)

 

My dual wield dwarf was a bit more practical.  He was like Leliana-lite, so he wasn't opposed to executions.  That being said, the only one that seemed to deserve it to him was Erimond.  Everyone else was exiled or jailed (or already dead and in a box).

 

My ranged rogue dwarf is another 'good gal' type of character.  But, given that she's former Carta, I can still see her allowing an execution here and there.  I know she'll execute Erimond for sure.  Not sure about the others. 

 

I guess, to me, I just don't see the need to execute most of the people that we judge.  The Mayor?  Mistress Poulin?  Ser Ruth?  Blackwall?  None of them seem like people whose deaths will do a greater good (or help the Inquisition) by being dead.  I can see an argument for Alexius, Florianne, and Samson (can they be executed?), but the rand-o's that you get to judge?  Just seems tyrannical to kill them.  If I'm not playing a tyrannical quizzie, I can't really justify killing them.

[Vordish]

@Ieldrah

 

Diligent "inquisition"(I see the irony) is needed. Innocence in this regard is strictly dictated by the standard of how one is judging. As I said; the real debate begins when you argue which "crimes" are worthy of capital punishment.

 

The crimes themselves are dictated by the standard of which you would follow and is the cornerstone for all arguments for or against capital punishment. Innocence is a result of not committing such crimes which is based in the standard/morals/code/LAW you are judging by. Change the standard and you change the definition of innocence/criminality.

 

Personally? I would advocate God's Law in the scriptures. God's Commandments, Statutes AND Judgments. Yet, it is a game...so anything goes. That is the joy of fantasy.

[Dieb]

I'd rather have a few innocent (of that particular crime) die than give a single monster another chance to express himself.  Reasonable doubt is a good enough threshold. Mistakes happen, but such is life.

 

A few of mine on this:

 

I would start to ask myself how many of those mistakes can happen before the real guy doesn't seem so bad. There is no such thing as "partial murderers". Reasonable doubt versus an ultimately innocent person, is still exactly as false an accusation, as against anyone who happened to NOT have been put in context of a crime by sheer chance. You cannot send someone to death because he may have "caught some murder", by being around the scene of the crime, like you shrunk from touching enemies in Super Mario World back in the day.

 

The heftier the punishment, the more you are required to make absolutely sure you're in the right. If you're gonna have death penalty, it should exist to protect people from hopeless causes, not for emotional satisfaction or to safe yourself time.

[Mocksie]

I avoid executions because my Inquisitor looks really dorky doing them, especially using that huge greatsword that seemingly floats on top of her back.

 

But in all seriousness, I never execute anyone in my canon playthroughs. I either have them serve the Inquisition, or give them to another organization to be judged. Mostly the latter, because a lot of times I feel like the Inquisition has no place to judge some of the people they are judging.

[In Exile]

I'd rather have a few innocent (of that particular crime) die than give a single monster another chance to express himself.  Reasonable doubt is a good enough threshold. Mistakes happen, but such is life.

 

In inquisition, anyone who has sufficently annoyed me/ judged be heinous enough by me gets the chopping block unless a crueler option presents itself. The diffrence to real life is of course that it isn't a court of law, but the court of the inquisitor where there exists no higher will or law than that of the inquisitor.

 

Of course the real difference in DA:I is that you are both witness and judge. Which is to say that you actually see the alleged offence happen. In the cases where you do not, what happens is that you have a full confession. So, again, you're not dealing with the actual issues that a court of law would be dealing with regardless. 

[FiveThreeTen]

I think I only executed Erimond.

The judgment I struggled the most with was Mistress Poulin and Ser Ruth. In the end I sent the former to aid rebuild the town and sent the latter back to the Warden.

 

Making Florianne an agent wasn't hard, because you kind of already destroyed her with just words if she is still alive and if you succeed at her wartable mission you uncover a lot of powerful Venatori agents.

 

The Crestwood mayor is sent for judgment in Ferelden since it happens on their lands during the Blight.

 

I got one templar exiled because it was the "Bookish" option.

 

Abernache and the Avvar Chief are now a team.

[KaiserShep]

Of course the real difference in DA:I is that you are both witness and judge. Which is to say that you actually see the alleged offence happen. In the cases where you do not, what happens is that you have a full confession. So, again, you're not dealing with the actual issues that a court of law would be dealing with regardless. 

 

This is kind of what made the judgments in Awakening kind of interesting. When judging Ser Tammerly the Ox, you don't actually get to see the murder, and you have only have Varel's counsel to guide you through it.

[Chardonney]

I've never given the death penalty to a single person, not even Erimond, though he comes really close of getting it everytime. 

[Fredward]

It seems immensely hypocritical to me, to be an individual who has a body count that probably reaches that of a small city, to balk at the idea of execution. Why? Because it has the trappings of civilization? Spare me. In the game I approach it pragmatically, if I decide someone is too dangerous to let live I'll have them executed. If they're more useful in some other capacity they'll serve in that way instead. As far as I'm concerned the morality of the individual goes out the window when the fate of the world is at stake.

 

Real life though? Much more complex. For me it tends to wind up being something that winds up being decided on an individual basis.

[Dieb]

It seems immensely hypocritical to me, to be an individual who has a body count that probably reaches that of a small city, to balk at the idea of execution.

 

It's interesting that you word it that way. "The idea" of execution. The idea behind executions and killing an enemy as the result of a struggle are very much not the same thing. As long as the death happens as the result of an equal struggle on the battlefield, it is (morally) never the same thing as killing someone shackled and unarmed for satisfaction, justice or even killing's sake. There is a world's difference to me. There's a reason officers are far more often sentenced to execution than low ranking infantrists; despite the latter having way higher bodycounts at times.

 

Pragmatically, both actions result in someone being dead. But by that sentiment, marriage would also be hypocritical. People are never pragmatic, and so many aspects of life would suck if they were. Like I said before, you cannot/should not throw morals out of the window, cause that's what I try making this discussion all about.

 

 

P.S.: Discussion be as it may, kudos for your awesome avatar :]