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Sit In Judgmentalism - Executions


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#76
Fredward

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It's interesting that you word it that way. "The idea" of execution. The idea behind executions and killing an enemy as the result of a struggle are very much not the same thing. As long as the death happens as the result of an equal struggle on the battlefield, it is (morally) never the same thing as killing someone shackled and unarmed for satisfaction, justice or even killing's sake. There is a world's difference to me. There's a reason officers are far more often sentenced to execution than low ranking infantrists; despite the latter having way higher bodycounts at times.

 

Pragmatically, both actions result in someone being dead. But by that sentiment, marriage would also be hypocritical. People are never pragmatic, and so many aspects of life would suck if they were. Like I said before, you cannot/should not throw morals out of the window, cause that's what I try making this discussion all about.

 

 

P.S.: Discussion be as it may, kudos for your awesome avatar :]

 

In my mind I'm not chucking morality out the window, more like putting it into perspective. Lemme walk you through my reasoning here.

 

Every single human life means something, probably not in a huge universal, cosmic sense but thinking that way stops every single debate/discussion ever so we won't go there. It means something because, in general, we (as in humanity) value it. Every human being is like one Worth Unit (WU). Now regardless of how you kill someone or what your justifications are you deduct one WU from existence. That can't be mitigated or taken back, you have now erased one human being and all their potential and all their beautiful experiences and future experiences from existence. The only thing that can make it 'okay' or not a horrible, horrifying thing is if you do it to save a larger number of WUs in the future. Can you ever be sure, really 100% sure, that you, as a precipitator of death, have now stopped WUs from being erased in the future by erasing this one WU? No, you can't. That one WU might have turned around and became a farmer or whatever. But do you risk it? What if that WU goes on to erase like 600 other WUs and you COULD have stopped him?

 

Now to bring this back to DAI. You're saying that it's not the same thing to meet someone on an 'equal' playing field and killing them there vs executing someone. I'm asking; why not? The result is someone's death. The motivation is saving a greater number of people, presumably. And this isn't even examining motivation or responsibility. Our primary enemy in the game are the red templars or the red mages (are they called red mages?) they aren't even in control of themselves any more but we cut through them like a scythe on harvest day (not that I think scythes still get used much but aaaannnyyywaaayy) not because we do not realize this but because we HAVE to. If we don't erase these relatively innocent WUs they will erase many more innocent WUs.

 

Bringing this to judgement. Generally the people we judge in the game have done bad stuff, usually they've killed people. Or erased WUs. And I have to believe that concepts like justice and morality began as a way to protect what is 'right' and what is right, at the end of the day, if not the sheltering and guardianship of WUs? To make sure that the biggest percentage possible of WUs can have full and fulfilling lives unthreatened by erasure? So that's why I sometimes get frustrated when the idea of morality and justice and honor seem to become so entangled and complicated that they start to inhabit a cloudy realm high in the atmosphere so far divorced for what I believe their original purpose must have been, namely preserving WUs.

 

SO. If I sit in judgement of someone who has already erased many WUs and has no skills in which they can 'make up' for those they've erased and I have little to no reason to believe they will not erase future WUs then yes, pragmatically in my eyes, they need to die. It serves as a little smudge on my Inquisitor's soul because that person, however unlikely, could have turned around and devoted their lives to saving kittens or whatever but is that risk worth it? If they kill even one other person if they've been released or imprisoned and escaped that death, that little soul smudge, is as much on the Inquisitor as it is on them. Because it COULD have been stopped.

 

And thanks, the avatar is Sarolta Ban's work. She has mad skills.



#77
SwordofMercy1

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I like to extend a practice of no death penalty to kinda embody the saying, "The only way to truly defeat the enemy, is by making them your friend/ally." Granted, some of the people I made allies in the game will probably come back to bite me in the but, but I least I, my character, gave them a chance to change sides when others probably wouldn't have... Plus I can always get Leliana to blackmail their a**.



#78
Mir Aven

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As of now I didn't execute anyone. Why would I give them the easy way out.


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#79
Cecilia

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I had an agent-collecting-fetish so I basically never killed anyone I could use as an agent~ Actually now that I think back on it, I don't think I killed anyone. My mage did make Erimond tranquil though (argument for another thread like there literally is a thread on this).

 

Execution isn't necessarily a useless/obscure punishment. Punishment serves 3 purposes: the rehabilitation of the criminal, justice for the victims, and disincentivization for those who may seek to repeat his/her crimes. While execution doesn't rehabilitate, it can accomplish the latter two objectives if used correctly.



#80
zambingo

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Using tranquility seems contrary to what that was intended to be and also still right in line with what mages fear will happen; tranquility as punishment. I could be wrong but tranquility is supposed to save the mage from themselves, not be used to silent opposing ideologies.

Like I said however, maybe I am mistaken.

In regards to the ultimate sentence, I thought the game was done well in that other viable options are on the table while not really telling you off for choosing death if you saw fit. I've never seen fit, usually deferring to the reigning authority involved or the affected people; eg. mayor goes to Denerim. Erimond to the Wardens. One of the reasons I choose defer is because I recalled Mother Giselle, or perhaps it was Cass or Leliana, mention that the Inquisition was not meant to be permanent. By deferring I feel the sovereignty is being respected.

#81
Steppenwolf

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I either do the smartass thing, or the cruelest thing. Making an enemy mage tranquil is worse than execution, for example. Life in a cage, also worse than execution. I keeps it real.

#82
Cecilia

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Using tranquility seems contrary to what that was intended to be and also still right in line with what mages fear will happen; tranquility as punishment. I could be wrong but tranquility is supposed to save the mage from themselves, not be used to silent opposing ideologies.

Like I said however, maybe I am mistaken.

In regards to the ultimate sentence, I thought the game was done well in that other viable options are on the table while not really telling you off for choosing death if you saw fit. I've never seen fit, usually deferring to the reigning authority involved or the affected people; eg. mayor goes to Denerim. Erimond to the Wardens. One of the reasons I choose defer is because I recalled Mother Giselle, or perhaps it was Cass or Leliana, mention that the Inquisition was not meant to be permanent. By deferring I feel the sovereignty is being respected.

 

It was a bit of a complicated decision and there is a whole thread debating this somewhere I remember, so I won't go too much into detail here, but I will just say my main motivation was the removal of the magic and that the loss of ... personality was a bit of a side effect. There are a lot of arguments about what turning someone Tranquil does and I think the game lore waffles on this (DA:I implies in some contexts - esp if you play Cullen's companion quest - that Tranquils are still themselves minus the ability to be irrational - so they still feel emotions but are simply incapable of making decisions that defy logic) so my headcanon was closer to he would still be himself to a certain extent (after all you keep your memories) but his utility function would be altered and I really really wanted this guy to live a life without magic because this is someone for whom his magic means more to him than his life.

 

The RoT, iirc, was intended to save mages incapable of avoiding possession and neutralize mages who were dangerous and unwilling/unable to stop harming others with their powers (maleficar). I would argue Erimond falls strictly under the latter category - the guy is clearly at least slightly psychotic and obviously unwilling to stop using his magic as an instrument of egregious harm.

 

If I said spite wasn't at least part of the decision tree, I would be lying  :P



#83
DAOnut

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I have a hard time deciding whether making Erimond a Tranquil is a wiser choice than executing him, or unnecessary cruelty.

Is it the same kind of self-pleasing semi-righteousness to say "You loved being a mage, now I take all the "mage" from you!", or is it really turning him into a productive member of the Inquisition as reparation (and preventing him from causing more harm with his magic)?


Making someone Tranquil can be reversed, as Cassandra indicates. Erimond will escape and either try his time experiments again, be upducted for his time magic knowledge, or he will hunt you down for revenge.

#84
The_Last_Griffon

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I only ever execute Erimond or whatever that monster's name was. Not as punishment, but as the safest option to avoid further crimes from him.

Letting him live only to have him serve evil again would have made me feel responsible.

 

I made him tranquil, sadly that option is only available to mages though so my warrior can't do it:/



#85
songsmith2003

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As of now I didn't execute anyone. Why would I give them the easy way out.

 

Red panda! My favorite!

 

*ahem* I mean I didn't execute anyone in my game. I made the Erimond (?) tranquil because that was the worst thing (and the only punishment he feared) I could do to him. He deserved it. I think the rite of tranquility was created for people like him. (I recruited Alexius as a researcher in a prior game because I understood why he did what he did.)

 

I used history knowledge to banish that one templar someplace. He reacted pretty much like Erimond, so I think I made the right decision.

 

I recruited Florienne, though I watched her like a hawk. Everyone else wound up being agents or turned over to appropriate governments or banished.

 

Had I not had those choices for Erimond and Denem(?) I would have executed them. This wasn't a case where they could turn out not to be guilty. Their actions caused the death of hundreds if not thousands of people. They showed no remorse an were too dangerous to leave lying around where they might use abilities to hurt or coerce others again. I think they're lucky the Inquisition gives them swift justice if the death penalty is enacted. There are so many worst medieval ways to be executed. Heck, they even got a sword instead of the axe.



#86
introverted_assassin

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wait...there's an instance where Florianne is alive after Wicked Hearts? she's been in a box for 4 playthroughs for me. well...her remains. :unsure:

#87
Giantdeathrobot

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I would also point out that some of the people we can execute (Erimund and Florianne more than the others) aren't just criminals; they are people who were ready to get who knows how many others killed in the name of Corypheus and themselves. Killing them isn't just for the sake of feeling good or even justice, it removes the very real threat they pose. Erimund is a Magister and Florianne has proven to be a very skilled rogue, I wouldn't trust a prison with either of them.



#88
Mirth

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Guilty? No.

My inquisitors IS the inquisitor because he/she is willing to make the hard decisions. With exception to the mayor, I killed dozens of these peoples henchmen/followers, to get to them. They get no special treatment. Public judgement is just a formality. As far as I'm concerned, they are dead already. How they managed to survive the battle, and be transported back to sky hold is beyond me.

I let the goat guy go to Tevinter. He was only guilty of having an idiot son. Attacking my stronghold with a goat...isn't exactly a high crime.

#89
Biotic Flash Kick

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MAKE THEM ALL TRANQUIL

YESSSSSSSSS



#90
ShadowLordXII

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My Inquisitor only executed one or two people because the rest were of too great of practical use.

 

The Mayor was executed despite Adaar agreeing that harsh circumstances require harsh actions. But what sealed the man's fate was that he covered up the truth and then fled when he was in danger of having that truth discovered. Since the fool wasn't willing to face the consequences of his actions like a responsible individual, Adaar saw no use in him and killed him to increase the relationship between Ferelden and the Inquisition.

 

Erimond was executed because he was too dangerous to keep alive given the damage that he's already caused.

 

Otherwise, my Canon-Inquisitor tried to get as much use out of his captives as possible rather than kill them.



#91
PlasmaCheese

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I didn't like the options for the Mayor of Crestwood. While it was horrible what he did....I agreed with it. :c Very hard choice, but he did what he had to do. That was the only judgement I was disappointed by.

I tranquilized Erimond, but none of the others were killed. It didn't really seem necessary, and there were funnier options. And they lead to more wartable missions! While I don't remember Alexius's choices, I kept him for research because I was hoping something bad (or really good) would happen. It didn't, I couldn't even visit him, so next time I'm probably gonna kill him. The Duchess got murderered at the ball, if she counts lol.


I don't put my real world morality into the game, really. My characters have different personalities. There was only like...2 people in DAI that I felt actually deserved the death sentence.

#92
Dabrikishaw

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Erimond is the only one I ever feel like killing. Everyone else is either pardoned or made an agent.


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#93
teh DRUMPf!!

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 I make Alexius serve the Inquistion mages. 'Said he'd have preferred the headsman's axe, lol.



#94
jedidotflow

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I usually find ways to make them all serve some purpose, except Erimond; for that rat there is only one way out: a mage's crime, a mage's punishment -- tranquility.



#95
Inprea

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When it comes to judgements I try to think of what will set things as right as they can be. Alexius needs to be forced to uphold his promise to the mages, though I'd prefer to have him as an agent, the mayor claims he was opposing the blight in a way so he gets to join the wardens, I fear I've only killed him with an expensive poison given the mortality rate of the joining and the duchess either becomes an agent or is forced to work with the common. As much as I'd like to see her suffer the punishments don't do as much good as putting her to work for the Inquisition. That choice is real hard on me as I really want to see her suffer due to a somewhat wrathful nature on my part.

 

For me justice is more about making things right rather then punishment.

 

The barbarian is an odd one for me. I mean technically a flogging then sending him home should be fine but I can't resist sending him to Tevinter. I don't know if poking the tiger is really the best idea but blast it if they're going to send a bunch of crazy cultist my way and not do a darn thing about it then I figure sending a bunch of barbarians, and helping them set up a settlement, is fair play.



#96
songsmith2003

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My Inner Sera has me sending the chieftain to harass the Tevinters every single time. Because goats.

 

@introverted_assassin, I believe you get a chance to walk up to Flourienne (sp?) and confront/stop her--no fight. You need to decide to let Celene live (so you stop her before she does anything) and I think your belle of the ball status needs to be close to 100. Don't quote me on that, though. She tests to see if you are keeping an eye on her if you make her into an agent. I should probably have killed her.

 

As for reverse tranquility, wouldn't the process take at least a year of meditation and study and a faith spirit? I'm sure some baddie could find a way to warp it, but I'm pretty sure Erimond will never be allowed to move about on his own, tranquil or not.

 

I almost always send the mayor to Ferelden to judge. I mean, Crestwood is in their country. It feels presumptuous to decide the fate of a Ferelden for something that happened prior to the inquisition's beginning.



#97
Dieb

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The barbarian is an odd one for me. I mean technically a flogging then sending him home should be fine but I can't resist sending him to Tevinter. I don't know if poking the tiger is really the best idea but blast it if they're going to send a bunch of crazy cultist my way and not do a darn thing about it then I figure sending a bunch of barbarians, and helping them set up a settlement, is fair play.

 

The thing is, I like the "exile" option in this one, because of how the Inquisitor struggles to phrase the sentence "officially". It coincides with the RP I try keeping up for my char. This reluctancy towards such official business sounds exactly as I would want him to sound like in all instances, really.



#98
TheExtreamH

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tumblr_mb2ntuqt081rdutw3o1_400.gifYea i was like this.



#99
Pincey

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Hmm i never used the Death Penalty for Judgements, when i was a mage i only used Tranquility on Lord Erimus since he had no hope for anything really. Also seeing him shite his pants was a side bonus. Otherwise i just imprisoned the bastard. For others i tried to be creative with the punishment or get some use out of them.

 

Traitor Templar (Templar side), I banished him to the Sea of Ash and he shite his pants so i was happy (Need History Perk)

Venatori Alexius (Mage side), I made him research (you need the Secret perk from leliana) or if i didn't have that, made him work for the mages.

Avari Chieftan (Mire), armed exile.

Floriene Dead - made her a touring cadaver and urban legend via wartable.

Floriene Alive - Jester

Venatori Mage (Western Approach) - Used him as probabation agent, you can use him as a smuggler if you have underword perk but you don't get him as an agent if you do that.

Warden Lady (after fade) - normally i put her to work in the mines since she wanted to suffer so much, however if the game marks as believer of the Maker and Andraste, you can forgive her using your status as the Herald of Andraste and she seems happy. Then she decides to get herself killed if you let her in converting non believers in some wilderness heh.

Mine owner Lady (Empres du Lion) - Made her stay at the inquisition as a scribe paying some of her wages to rebuit the town, no way in hell she was getting off with no punishment of some sort.

Mayor of Crestwood (Crestwood) - Sent to Fereldan or sent to wardens (if option is availiable).

Samson (only if you did cullen side quest after ally with mages) - Dagna research.

 

So generally i didn't execute anyone. I did chose the option once to see how it looked like then reloaded. I was more for getting some use out of them most of the time. However i can understand players getting the impression where life is cheap and you're killing combatents left right and center when not on the throne so why not do it when you on the throne. Death penalty for all, eye for an eye etc. Also it could be abit of the Cognitive dissonance if you're rp an anti death penalty inquisitor when you are happily killing every single combatant when not on the throne. The game doesn't give the option to accept surrender when fighting bandits and stuff.


Modifié par Pincey, 20 février 2015 - 09:33 .


#100
Cadeym

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Executing people is a bit too insane for my taste. If someone is no longer a threat (have surrendered and can be detained), then locking them up is always the way to go. That way they can still be judged, atone or even released later in light of new evidence.. death remains somewhat irreversible. If the crime haven't yet caused the death of innocent bystanders, then the person may yet be redeemed.

 

Exile is a good alternative to imprisonment, provided that the person can't cause any more harm.

 

Killing someone after thay have surrendered sends only one message.. expect no mercy from us.. you might aswell go down guns blazing, because that is your only chance at living.