201 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Nah. Go back to DA2s tighter story and character focus and awwwaaaaaayyyy from the Mary-Sue World Saviour bullshit but keep DAIs dev time and budget. It would be so, so glorious.

I can practically taste the irony.

[Hazegurl]

It is a tall order, like it or not. Unrealistically tall.

 

Characters drive stories forward. You take them out, stories don't work. The best outcome you could realistically hope for is something like a ME 3 scenario, where dead characters are replaced by ones that fulfill effectively the same function. Which more or less got a pretty negative reception when people found out their ME 2 companions didn't have near as much content as they wanted.

That is odd considering that we did have some of what I'm talking about in DAO and DA2. So it's not unrealistic, I'm asking for a bit more and an improvement to what was already done.

 

Also, there are tons of great secondary characters in stories that die.  It's been happening since writers could pick up a quill/pen.  And in some cases those deaths drive the story forward for the Protagonist or add to their background and development.  The main theme of every story is the Protagonist and their goals and motivations et al. Secondary characters are just that, secondary, and they can be just as well written and fleshed out without the entire story relying on them to live.

[Mathias]

Nah. Go back to DA2s tighter story and character focus and awwwaaaaaayyyy from the Mary-Sue World Saviour bullshit but keep DAIs dev time and budget. It would be so, so glorious.

 

 

I like the World Savior storyline, but that doesn't mean the protagonist has to be a mary sue.

[Raiil]

In terms of story? I thought the story was pretty good. Not perfect, but then- I've never come across the perfect story either.

 

In terms of game construction? I think it's a good start. If it were up to me personally, I'd bin about 30-40% of the fluff side quests and put that towards longer, more lore-intensive or situation-intensive quests.

 

As an example, it's nice that you can do nice things for the people the Crossroads and at Redcliffe, but we don't need to do so much. What would have been nicer is more quest chains like Sutherland's- that sweet boy in the tavern that has a bunch of war table missions and one side quest. Sutherland is one of my people. I should have more people. The Forbidden Oasis? Meh, not as necessary. Could have been DLC. Would have rather had more involved missions somewhere else.

 

 

I think we need SOME fluff sidequests (I really liked the one in the Hinterlands where you put the flowers on Senna's grave- fast, easy, shows the impact on citizens) but you only need so much.

 

 

Also, moar agents.

 

 

ETA: And one final thing- GIVE US MORE ARMOUR, PLEASE. JAYSUS.

[Fredward]

I can practically taste the irony.

 

Explain this irony of which you speak.

[Hazegurl]

I'm talking about believable mutual friendship bonds, not conflict or flaws. At the heart, that means the companions finally starting to take an interest in the protagonist. Asking about our background, our feelings after big events, talking shop about fighting techniques or magic styles, joking around with us. Like the companions do among themselves. And these conversations need to actually remain focused on the protagonist for a change, or at least be a credibly balanced mutual give-and-take, instead of immediately turning on their heel and once again becoming all about what the companions felt or thought or experienced. It's damn annoying when that bait-and-switch happens.

*snip*

I agree completely even with the stuff I snipped. I felt left out most of the time in DAI because it seemed that the companions would rather talk to each other, offer kind words to each other, hang out with each other, et al over the IQ. ME3 may have had it's problems and the companions in ME needed some improvements as well but at least they took an interest in Shepard and cared about him. DAI actually made me more appreciative of Liara asking Shepard if he's okay. lol!!

[javeart]

I really hope they don't use DAI as a framework, if that means:

- an emphasis in exploration and side quests that I cannot help thinking that came at the cost of main quests

- a system that forces you to do side quests, which should always be completely optional

- lots of companions with very short loyalty missions

- lots of dialogues without proper cutscenes

- returning to the not enough approval -> locked out of content system we got in DAO (I liked a lot the friendship/rivalry system)

- lossing the tactis section we got in DAO and DA2

- combat difficulty too tied to gathering resources and crafting 

 

I hope they keep the changes in the diaogue wheel, though

 

edit: I forgot to mention I hope the war table concept doesn't come back, either, at least not with so many operations demanding you to wait for three, four hours sometimes, or at the very, very least not depending on them to unlock missions 

[Fast Jimmy]

Explain this irony of which you speak.

Just from reading the comment... how is Hawke not one the biggest Mary Sus in the existence of Thedas? Not saying the Inquisitor isn't as well (or the Warden), but people worshipped the ground Hawke walked on just as par-for-the-course. Aside from forced tragedy, Hawke was portrayed as the master mage/warrior of all of Kirkwall from Act 1.

[Fredward]

Just from reading the comment... how is Hawke not one the biggest Mary Sus in the existence of Thedas? Not saying the Inquisitor isn't as well (or the Warden), but people worshipped the ground Hawke walked on just as par-for-the-course. Aside from forced tragedy, Hawke was portrayed as the master mage/warrior of all of Kirkwall from Act 1.

 

Surely you jest. Hawke fails at literally everything s/he sets out to do. They do not have a single success story. Point me at a Bioware hero that is NOT the best thing since bacon when it comes to combat though.

[Fast Jimmy]

Surely you jest. Hawke fails at literally everything s/he sets out to do. They do not have a single success story. Point me at a Bioware hero that is NOT the best thing since bacon when it comes to combat though.

Baldur's Gate 1? NWN? The player can get their butts handed to them by many enemy types in those games. People don't see you walking down the street and say "wow, that <charname> is amazing!" Usually, you are met with general mistrust or apathy.


Still, Bioware of a decade ago doesn't really matter much. But that doesn't mean that every Bioware game protag isn't a Mary Sue. It's hardly a fitting accusation for DA:I and not every other recent Bioware game.

[Memoirficent]

I think the game is a fantastic game (I don't spend hours on end playing its more of a -as and when- I play, nor do I get overly critical)

 

The game itself, I agree with what a lot of people said with the main quests feeling rushed. I enjoyed the side quest "fluff" people are talking about. but then I do it more for relaxation and just general procrastination from doing rota's and general paperwork that should be done. To gain people for the inquisition I would have liked it to be a little more of a challenge. Like it makes you work for their commitment rather being handed it on a plate, for example, the whole thing starts by just following the characters lead because you can close the breach. I can kind of understand but likewise if I had a prisoner who could do that I would use them for a bit and make them earn my trust. just things to make the games last a while. This being said Some games I enjoy so much I'd prefer they never finished in general (mostly open world games) I'd like a bigger conversation range with people as well. especially at the end. For instance if oyur character has a fling with another, at the end it just stops and it does make sense, the build up of the relationships to be dropped its like a lack of interest has gone into post main quest.

 

As said the end of the game was lacking other things too I'm not sure how to word it properly as I'm rather sleep deprived but it just kinda flumped in the corner.

 

I have dabbled in the previous games but I don't personally own them so I can't make a comparison on that.

[xJLxKing]

Baldur's Gate 1? NWN? The player can get their butts handed to them by many enemy types in those games. People don't see you walking down the street and say "wow, that <charname> is amazing!" Usually, you are met with general mistrust or apathy.
Still, Bioware of a decade ago doesn't really matter much. But that doesn't mean that every Bioware game protag isn't a Mary Sue. It's hardly a fitting accusation for DA:I and not every other recent Bioware game.

i hate game that do this

Skyrim and inquisition do this so much

OO the dragon born
OO herald of Andraste

I prefer the, o, so you are the HOF, I expect someone more....

[Fredward]

Baldur's Gate 1? NWN? The player can get their butts handed to them by many enemy types in those games. People don't see you walking down the street and say "wow, that <charname> is amazing!" Usually, you are met with general mistrust or apathy.


Still, Bioware of a decade ago doesn't really matter much. But that doesn't mean that every Bioware game protag isn't a Mary Sue. It's hardly a fitting accusation for DA:I and not every other recent Bioware game.

 

You were literally the child of god in BG. Haven't played NWN so I can't comment there. But maybe we're defining Mary-Sue differently here, I see at as either the character's actions and their success rate or their status (name as something Special or Marked by Destiny etc), not the way NPCs fawn over them. Which I tend to disregard because whatever. Hawke isn't a Mary-Sue because s/he fails at everything. NPCs still lick his/her boots but that's like fanservice man. Success vs fail rate points to 'mere mortal' and not 'jesus part deux.'

[Fast Jimmy]

You were literally the child of god in BG. Haven't played NWN so I can't comment there. But maybe we're defining Mary-Sue differently here, I see at as either the character's actions and their success rate or their status (name as something Special or Marked by Destiny etc), not the way NPCs fawn over them. Which I tend to disregard because whatever. Hawke isn't a Mary-Sue because s/he fails at everything. NPCs still lick his/her boots but that's like fanservice man. Success vs fail rate points to 'mere mortal' and not 'jesus part deux.'

Yeah, for me, forced tragedy on top of boot licking is still eye-rolling, regardless of if it is labeled "Mary Sue" or not. Regardless, throwing the insult rock of "the Inquisitor is too special" is very dangerous in the glass house street of Bioware games.

[Fredward]

Yeah, for me, forced tragedy on top of boot licking is still eye-rolling, regardless of if it is labeled "Mary Sue" or not. Regardless, throwing the insult rock of "the Inquisitor is too special" is very dangerous in the glass house street of Bioware games.

 

How is forced tragedy different from forced success? As to the second part, I agree. If we we're talking Bioware in general. But we're not. At least I'm not. I'm comparing DAI with DA2 and Hawke with the Inquisitor and more in terms of success vs failure ratios than specialness but the Inquisitor wins out on both of those by shovelfuls which is part of the reason I'd like to go back in that direction. That direction being DA2.

[Fast Jimmy]

How is forced tragedy different from forced success? As to the second part, I agree. If we we're talking Bioware in general. But we're not. At least I'm not. I'm comparing DAI with DA2 and Hawke with the Inquisitor and more in terms of success vs failure ratios than specialness but the Inquisitor wins out on both of those by shovelfuls which is part of the reason I'd like to go back in that direction. That direction being DA2.

Forced tragedy is meant to elicit emotion. "Your sibling that you met two minutes ago died... FEEL THE FEEEEEEELZ!!!" "The serial killer you could totally tell was stalking your mom killed her... FEEL THE FEEEEEEEELZ!!!" "You can't tell Anders he is losing control when he's close to murdering innocent Mages and he then goes crazy and starts a war... FEEL THE FEEEEELZ!!!"

When the Warden comes in and splits open the head of Uldred in his Pride demon form, you just get a feeling of "sweet, that dude is dead." It's not trying manipulate the player to feel something that may be otherwise very contrived.



Getting off topic. I don't like the Inquisitor or Hawke as a model for any future protagonists to be based off of, personally.

[In Exile]

Surely you jest. Hawke fails at literally everything s/he sets out to do. They do not have a single success story. Point me at a Bioware hero that is NOT the best thing since bacon when it comes to combat though.

Hawke fails through circumstances. It's the deconstruction of the Bioware protagonist: being awesome at murder does NOT fix the world. But that's how it works in DAO (and DAI). The Warden and Inquisitor kill a large group of people on their way to an objective and it all works out.

In terms of actual competence Hawke is the same as any other Bioware PC.

[Hazegurl]

Just from reading the comment... how is Hawke not one the biggest Mary Sus in the existence of Thedas? Not saying the Inquisitor isn't as well (or the Warden), but people worshipped the ground Hawke walked on just as par-for-the-course. Aside from forced tragedy, Hawke was portrayed as the master mage/warrior of all of Kirkwall from Act 1.

Hawke a Marty Stu??? The guy who couldn't even save his own family, who most characters said was irrelevant and actually was irrelevant in the story.  At least when it came to the actions of the other characters like Meredith, Orsino, and Anders. The guy who couldn't stop his own companion from blowing up hundreds of people.  A Marty Stu??

 

Forced tragedy is meant to elicit emotion. "Your sibling that you met two minutes ago died... FEEL THE FEEEEEEELZ!!!" "The serial killer you could totally tell was stalking your mom killed her... FEEL THE FEEEEEEEELZ!!!" "You can't tell Anders he is losing control when he's close to murdering innocent Mages and he then goes crazy and starts a war... FEEL THE FEEEEELZ!!!"

When the Warden comes in and splits open the head of Uldred in his Pride demon form, you just get a feeling of "sweet, that dude is dead." It's not trying manipulate the player to feel something that may be otherwise very contrived.

 

Now I agree here. The forced feels are just as bad as the forced victories, I think DA2's issue in terms of story was the off pacing. The failures were contrived but I don't mind the failures at all. I actually think they should have had the player work harder to find the killer only to still have the guy kill Momma Hawke. People will complain at being bested but at least the Killer would have offered a real challenge instead of the story forcing the player to move on and half ass the search. It would have been awesome if the Killer was a Hannibal Lecter type that really put Hawke through the ringer which includes killing his mother. It would have made killing him much much sweeter. 

[LPPrince]

I'm curious what Bioware could do with a truly open world setting.

[Fredward]

Hawke fails through circumstances. It's the deconstruction of the Bioware protagonist: being awesome at murder does NOT fix the world. But that's how it works in DAO (and DAI). The Warden and Inquisitor kill a large group of people on their way to an objective and it all works out.

In terms of actual competence Hawke is the same as any other Bioware PC.

 

And the others succeed through circumstance! They succeed because the plot says they're supposed to. Hawke fails because the plot says s/he's supposed to. Never is their any actual autonomy, never does the player actual do anything to 'deserve' victory. Hawke is competent like every other game protagonist is because, while the idea of playing someone truly incompetent may be compelling on paper, no one wants to be an inept loser. But now, somehow, because Hawke has this one thing in common with everyone else ever (personal competence) but deviates from the standard s/he actually regularly fails despite that personal competence because sometimes events are just bigger than you SOMEHOW Hawke gets an eyeroll as being a Mary-Sue. Not just that but apparently a bigger Mary-Sue than the Inquisitor.

 

I would very much like to use the Castle-speechless gif now but apparently I am not allowed to. Thanks Obama. Instead I shall link to it.

[MACharlie1]

Sure.

Buuuuut....throw in cities and more story quests. Even if it means sacrificing the size of the area.

DAI isn't perfect. But its alot like ME1. Wide areas, lots of telling not showing.

[LPPrince]

Sure.

Buuuuut....throw in cities and more story quests. Even if it means sacrificing the size of the area.

DAI isn't perfect. But its alot like ME1. Wide areas, lots of telling not showing.

 

Define city. Big difference between a DA city, a TES city, and a Witcher city.

[Draining Dragon]

I'd rather not continue the "quantity over quality" approach of DAI.

A game of this scale needed more development time than it got.

[TheJediSaint]

I think that a 4th Dragon Age game should try a different template to that of DAI.  Not that I think there was anything wrong with DAI's template.  I think each full Dragon Age game should be distinct from each other in some way.