150 réponses à ce sujet

[ZerioctheTank]

Recently I've realized that I don't know much about Loghain & why people like his character. I've played DA:O but I don't feel like I know that much about him per se & it would be nice to actually hear something from someone else's perspective. So why do you like Loghain? What makes him so great? How do you justify keeping him alive?

[katerinafm]

Reading the book The Stolen Throne makes most people like him.

[berelinde]

When Loghain showed up in DAI, he was a senior Grey Warden, and I can understand people wanting to keep him alive so that he could help the Wardens get past Clarel's mistake.

 

If you want people to explain Loghain's role in DAO... well, that was 2 games ago.

[riverbanks]

It's hard to sell what is so appealing about Loghain, because it relies a lot on empathy, and that's so subjective to each player. Thinking about Loghain's life makes my heart ache, but you could go through all of his content and still come out on the other side thinking, eh I still don't care. We each have our weak spots, yeah.

 

In any case, I would suggest reading The Stolen Throne and The Calling yourself to begin understanding Loghain. His history with Maric and Rowan puts so much in context - his protectiveness of Ferelden that borders and passes the point of obsession, his disdain of the Grey Wardens, his strained relationships with Cailan, Anora and even Alistair, etc. Then, try conscripting him in Origins and talking to him yourself. Ask everything. Squeeze every bit of dialogue you can out of him. Then do a playthrough of Inquisition with Loghain as Hawke's friend, to get the full experience, beginning to end. Try leaving him behind, try sparing him. It's one hell of a ride - and again, you could come out still not caring about him, but at least you'll understand what he was all about in the end.

[In Exile]

It depends on what it is about Loghain that you might find relatable. Personally, I don't think his quite sad - and it is sad and poignant - back story is enough to justify his survival in DAO, since that's all OOC. But the gist of it is that people think he had an OK reason to commit treason.

[ZerioctheTank]

It's hard to sell what is so appealing about Loghain, because it relies a lot on empathy, and that's so subjective to each player. Thinking about Loghain's life makes my heart ache, but you could go through all of his content and still come out on the other side thinking, eh I still don't care. We each have our weak spots, yeah.

 

In any case, I would suggest reading The Stolen Throne and The Calling yourself to begin understanding Loghain. His history with Maric and Rowan puts so much in context - his protectiveness of Ferelden that borders and passes the point of obsession, his disdain of the Grey Wardens, his strained relationships with Cailan, Anora and even Alistair, etc. Then, try conscripting him in Origins and talking to him yourself. Ask everything. Squeeze every bit of dialogue you can out of him. Then do a playthrough of Inquisition with Loghain as Hawke's friend, to get the full experience, beginning to end. Try leaving him behind, try sparing him. It's one hell of a ride - and again, you could come out still not caring about him, but at least you'll understand what he was all about in the end.

I haven't read either of those books yet and had no idea he was even in a book. I'll definitely check those books out. Thank you for the info.

[Monica21]

It depends on what it is about Loghain that you might find relatable. Personally, I don't think his quite sad - and it is sad and poignant - back story is enough to justify his survival in DAO, since that's all OOC. But the gist of it is that people think he had an OK reason to commit treason.

 

I was wondering how long that would take...

[Master Warder Z_]

I was wondering how long that would take...

I wonder how many veterans of that battle have to defend his actions before it's just dropped for good.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I wonder how many veterans of that battle have to defend his actions before it's just dropped for good.

He commits treasonous acts besides Ostagar. Letting Queen Anora be locked away by Arl Howe comes to mind. 

[riverbanks]

(...) But the gist of it is that people think he had an OK reason to commit treason.

 

Not necessarily. It's very simplistic to think that liking something equates excusing or handwaving everything that is wrong about it - it is actually quite possible to like a character and still acknowledge that they commited terrible, inexcusable crimes, or were 100% wrong about this or that. I like Loghain, I like Meredith, I like Samson, I like Anders... I can appreciate the whole of their characters without making poor excuses for their actions or trying to paint them as somehow justified. They weren't right. They were still amazing characters. 

 

Suggested reading, while we're at it: How to be a fan of problematic things.

[HoustonDragon]

He was an Oathbreaker, akin to the Kingslayer in GoT. His father died protecting Cailan to see him crowned, his Queen sacrificed to keep the realm stable.

Lighting allowed hatred and madness to leave his King to his death, and used it as an excuse to weaken and ignore the rise of Darkspawn and the Blight.

He deserved the traitor's death he received.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Not necessarily. It's very simplistic to think that liking something equates excusing or handwaving everything that is wrong about it - it is actually quite possible to like a character and still acknowledge that they commited terrible, inexcusable crimes, or were 100% wrong about this or that. I like Loghain, I like Meredith, I like Samson, I like Anders... I can appreciate the whole of their characters without making poor excuses for their actions or trying to paint them as somehow justified. They weren't right. They were still amazing characters. 

 

Suggested reading, while we're at it: How to be a fan of problematic things.

Yep. You can love someone as a character while hating them as a person. 

[Master Warder Z_]

He commits treasonous acts besides Ostagar. Letting Queen Anora be locked away by Arl Howe comes to mind.

She wasn't locked away to him, he makes that abundantly clear during the landsmeet and afterwards in dialogue if recruited.

He didn't usurp power from her, he only led the army. Did a decent job of it too.

[Hellion Rex]

As others have asserted, I'd say that this entire thing is just subjective. People like him for different reasons. I personally hold no love for him. Hell, I cackled when I chopped his head off, but I can see why some might like him.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

She wasn't locked away to him, he makes that abundantly clear during the landsmeet and afterwards in dialogue if recruited.

He didn't usurp power from her, he only led the army. Did a decent job of it too.

She was still locked away. Letting your ruler be a prisoner when you can stop it is treason. 

Yes he did. He appointed himself regent. A regent is: a person who rules a kingdom when the king or queen is not able to rule because he or she is sick, too young, etc.

[I present Chuck Bass]

He created Anora. Keeping him alive is a justice to Thedas, that he might continue to make more beautiful babies

[Eliastion]

She was still locked away. Letting your ruler be a prisoner when you can stop it is treason. 

Yes he did. He appointed himself regent. A regent is: a person who rules a kingdom when the king or queen is not able to rule because he or she is sick, too young, etc.

Admittedly, Anora didn't really have a solid claim to the throne. She was Cailan's wife, not his daughter, it doesn't seem like she was in obvious line of succession. Indeed, she was not a ruler, a candidate for one at best.

[X Equestris]

He was an Oathbreaker, akin to the Kingslayer in GoT. His father died protecting Cailan to see him crowned, his Queen sacrificed to keep the realm stable.
Lighting allowed hatred and madness to leave his King to his death, and used it as an excuse to weaken and ignore the rise of Darkspawn and the Blight.
He deserved the traitor's death he received.

Loghain's withdrawal at Ostagar was quite justifiable. Some of his other actions are suspect, but Ostagar isn't among those.

[I present Chuck Bass]

Loghain's withdrawal at Ostagar was quite justifiable. Some of his other actions are suspect, but Ostagar isn't among those.

Idk his decision left the wardens to be slaughtered... Ferelden was only two wardens away from being wardenless. Only TWO away. If those two died along with the hundreds of others.... Ferelden would have been screwed and overrun by darkspawn.

As you remember, no one was coming to their aid.

In short, he was so close to screwing the whole war for Ferelden.

[X Equestris]

Idk his decision left the wardens to be slaughtered... Ferelden was only two wardens away from being wardenless. Only TWO away. If those two died along with the hundreds of others.... Ferelden would have been screwed and overrun by darkspawn.
As you remember, no one was coming to their aid.
In short, he was so close to screwing the whole war for Ferelden.

True, but we have to remember that he, and most others, don't know why the Wardens are necessary. With the information available at the time, his decision makes sense.

[Master Warder Z_]

True, but we have to remember that he, and most others, don't know why the Wardens are necessary. With the information available at the time, his decision makes sense.

Grey Wardens never have stopped a blight alone, each time they had a army at their back.

Anyone with a knowledge of history could say as much.

o.o

[Monica21]

True, but we have to remember that he, and most others, don't know why the Wardens are necessary. With the information available at the time, his decision makes sense.

 

There's actually some sound strategy to Loghain's retreat. He was positioned to flank the darkspawn, not to directly reinforce the King's troops. He also didn't know where Cailan was on the field. Loghain needed the signal because his view was obscured. If he'd charged to try and get to Cailan he would have announced where the rest of the Ferelden soldiers were to the darkspawn leaving them open to attack too.

[I present Chuck Bass]

True, but we have to remember that he, and most others, don't know why the Wardens are necessary. With the information available at the time, his decision makes sense.

  

Grey Wardens never have stopped a blight alone, each time they had a army at their back.
Anyone with a knowledge of history could say as much.
o.o

Yeah agreed, but his ignorance doesn't excuse that he dropped the ball big time. Yes you need more than grey wardens. But no grey wardens no party.

If the HOF and Alistair died, which it was a miracle they didn't, Ferelden gets sacked no matter what. It was one of the worst decisions ever.

[X Equestris]

Yeah agreed, but his ignorance doesn't excuse that he dropped the ball big time. Yes you need more than grey wardens. But no grey wardens no party.
If the HOF and Alistair died, which it was a miracle they didn't, Ferelden gets sacked no matter what. It was one of the worst decisions ever.

Looking at the battlefield at Ostagar, though, there aren't many good options. The plan was already busted when darkspawn entered the Tower of Ishal. Alistair himself says he's pretty sure that you missed the signal. So at that point, Loghain's options are to stick to the plan that is already crumbling and quite possibly see the entire army destroyed, or withdraw and save part of it. Considering how far back the darkspawn column at Ostagar goes, I'm doubtful that the army Cailan had assembled would have been able to win even without the delay in the beacon being lit.

[Cespar]

Good leader's qualities, duty-bound, and an excellent warrior. I may not like that he left the wardens to die, and tried to kill Warden Brosca at every corner, but he redeemed himself by joining the wardens. I believe that everyone is capable of redemption, especially if they put the time and hard work into a noble cause.

Leaving Loghain in the fade was hard, but he died a hero, which I would think the way he wanted to go out.