150 réponses à ce sujet

[I present Chuck Bass]

Looking at the battlefield at Ostagar, though, there aren't many good options. The plan was already busted when darkspawn entered the Tower of Ishal. Alistair himself says he's pretty sure that you missed the signal. So at that point, Loghain's options are to stick to the plan that is already crumbling and quite possibly see the entire army destroyed, or withdraw and save part of it. Considering how far back the darkspawn column at Ostagar goes, I'm doubtful that the army Cailan had assembled would have been able to win even without the delay in the beacon being lit.

Still then a retcon mission to save some grey wardens. He got so lucky the HOF is badass... I can't praise it as a good decision.

[X Equestris]

Still then a retcon mission to save some grey wardens. He got so lucky the HOF is badass... I can't praise it as a good decision.

You know, I kind of have to wonder why Duncan brought every single Warden in the country to Ostagar. It seems awfully risky to stick all of your eggs in the same basket.

[NaclynE]

As I said in a similar topic I felt that if he didn't do what he did in DAO Ferelden would of had no army because if he participated in Ostagar they would of lost the only serious capable general in the denerim army since he retreated and maybe regrouped to be more properly prepared for the Darkspawn since Calen was over confident and lost big time. Sure Everything else he did after the retreat was wrong like poisoning the arl and doing other crazy stuff but I felt his quest for redemption was just if he is kept alive in DAO. 

 

However in my heart I still feel keeping Logain alive is wrong and sacrificing Alistar to keep Logain alive is wrong since Alistar is a far more honorable man and has been with you for quite some time. Sure he's a dofus from to much lyrium but his heart has been in the right place from the get go. Also Anora....ehhhh.....She always put politics first over what's right. Marrying her dad to keep the throne?.....EWWWWWWW!!!

[Cespar]

You know, I kind of have to wonder why Duncan brought every single Warden in the country to Ostagar. It seems awfully risky to stick all of your eggs in the same basket.

I guess that unfit king wanted to battle along side the Wardens like in the stories. Duncan wanted to please him, so he granted him his wish.

[Monica21]

Marrying her dad to keep the throne?.....EWWWWWWW!!!

 

What?

[Eliastion]

Still then a retcon mission to save some grey wardens. He got so lucky the HOF is badass... I can't praise it as a good decision.

I definitely understand people who hate Loghain and even those that believe his decision at Ostagar nothing but a treachery with post-factum added explanation (or even orchestrated failure at Isthal).

However, holding against him the fact that he didn't know how important a Grey Warden is in defeating the Archdemon? That's just silly. We can hold people accountable when they make decisions bad in the light of information they have OR if we believe they could've had more information but neglected it. But when GW keep it a great secret how killing an Archdemon works AND they don't even disclose information that would make their "it's a blight, there is an Archdemon" anything more than a hunch - how can you blame the general for not taking into account those facts that were hidden from him? If you wanna blame someone, blame Wardens who had to be so damn secretive that the Ferelden could burn just to preserve their secret!

If Duncan told Cailan and Loghain why he thinks it's a blight - perhaps the whole strategy would be different. Perhaps Loghain despite his paranoia would actually see the darkspawn for the threat they were. Most likely he would at the very least cut the deal with orlesian Wardens to come help (while still denying entrance any other forces) or maybe he would bring in Wardens from some other place (Antiva? Nevarra?).

But Loghain didn't know. Nobody knew. Even as Ferelden was waiting to be destroyed, with no Wardens that would give any chance of actually ending the Blight - the Wardens sent a SPY. Not anyone to go up to Loghain and disclose their painful secret in hope that it could let them save the kingdom, no. Secrecy was more important, let the Ferelden burn if it must.

 

Sorry, I understand Wardens, I like them (a bit). But if you want to blame Loghain for not taking into account crucial piece of information PERHAPS it would be a bit more fair to rather blame those who hid said information from him, wouldn't you say?

[B.A. Broska]

I honestly don't understand it either, sure he has a tragic backstory but that only works if it gives context to his actions which it did not, he spent most of the game acting like a mustachio twirling villain and none of his actions make any sense nor do they fit the type of character Bioware tries to paint him as after he is spared from the execution. It would have been easier to accept Loghain as a character if he was the power hungry usurper the first half of the game shows him to be but then they try to insult the player's intelligence by claiming he is just a misguided patriot trying to do what he thinks is right and deliver his country from evil while expecting us to forget that none of his actions benefit the country in any way shape or form and serve no real purpose other than to establish him as the villain of the story.

 

Having a character's parents die is not enough to make a good character, they need to have motivations that make sense and perform actions that make sense given what we know about the nature of such characters and in the end Loghain just comes off as an inconsistent poorly written mess.

[SurelyForth]

It's hard to sell what is so appealing about Loghain, because it relies a lot on empathy, and that's so subjective to each player. Thinking about Loghain's life makes my heart ache, but you could go through all of his content and still come out on the other side thinking, eh I still don't care. We each have our weak spots, yeah.

 

This is...presumptive. I have of empathy- just not for Loghain. I have empathy for all the people who died when he pulled soldiers from the southern part of Thedas on his way back Denerim. I have empathy for the everyone who died in the Blight because he essentially destroyed whatever support the Wardens might have had from Ferelden proper, forcing them to chase treaties (while also stemming the tide of chaos that he set in action). I have empathy for the elves who were sold into slavery with literally no consideration for their worth as people (compounded by his complete and utter lack of remorse for them if you spare him). I have empathy for everyone that was allowed to be defiled, tortured, and/or killed by Howe under the auspice of his partnership with Loghain.

 

Like, I get his sad and tragic backstory and why he was blinded by fear of an Orlesian invasion. But it is absolutely not enough to justify what he did, or earn him my empathy over all the other people who deserve it far more than he does. 

[In Exile]

Not necessarily. It's very simplistic to think that liking something equates excusing or handwaving everything that is wrong about it - it is actually quite possible to like a character and still acknowledge that they commited terrible, inexcusable crimes, or were 100% wrong about this or that. I like Loghain, I like Meredith, I like Samson, I like Anders... I can appreciate the whole of their characters without making poor excuses for their actions or trying to paint them as somehow justified. They weren't right. They were still amazing characters. 

 

Suggested reading, while we're at it: How to be a fan of problematic things.

 

The OP wasn't just asking why people like Loghain the character. I like the character in theory, terrible execution aside. But there's also a question of allowing Loghain to live at the Landsmeet, which to me turns specifically on an in-character moral evaluation of him. That's why I opened with the difference between meta-game knowledge and in-character knowledge. 

 

Loghain, in-game, did commit treason. His declaring himself regent (you can't do that absent a legally incapable ruler), his poisoning of Eamon, his alliance with Howe, his selling elves into slavery... the list goes on. 

[ZerioctheTank]

A lot of good valid points are said here & I love that. It is true that you can hate a character but like them at the same time. Maker I hate admitting this but Vivienne is a perfect example of this for me. The way she treats people, her close mindedness & just fact out being a ***** just drives me insane but I love to hate her. I love how I ground my teeth when she puts down various members of the cast but I'm getting off the topic here so back to Loghain. When he betrayed everyone during the battle of Ostagar I guess I ignored the fact that not everyone knows why the grey wardens are needed. As far as everyone is concerned they're a organization dedicated to eliminating the darkspawn threat. I can say for a fact that I didn't necessarily hated him but I didn't like him. When it came to deciding on what to do with him I felt that death was the only solution for his crimes. Never once did I consider giving him a chance to redeem himself & utilize his tactical prowess (I didn't want to lose Alistair as well). Thanks again for everyone replying I may make some "different" choices on my next DA:O playthrough to see how things play out.

[dragonflight288]

Let me ask this question?

 

If you play an Inquisitor who chooses to exile the Wardens, and Corypheus's dragon turned out to actually be an archdemon that needed a Warden to slay it properly, wouldn't your Inquisitor be just as guilty for dooming the world as Loghain so often is accused of for enacting what he saw as a just punishment without the full story?

[ComedicSociopathy]

The man sloppily tried to assassinate Arl Eamon and let his political ineptitude result in a civil war that robbed almost half of Ferelden's already weakened forces during the middle of a Blight. He let Howe get away with removing another military power when he wiped out the Couslands in a petty powerplay. He let his hatred of Orlais blind him from waiting for the Orlesian Grey Wardens to arrive, something that even glory hound Calian was willing to do. Then, he imprisons his own daughter, giving those against him more evidence into thinking he's just trying to become a military dictator. He imprisons just about anyone who disagress with him, alienating almost every noble house in Ferelden. Add that to the selling of the alienage elves, the pitiable attempt to gain the help of the dwarves and his barely justifiable stupidity in not assuming that the Wardens are in some way necessary to stop a Blight, even though they've been the only group able to permanently end one four times in a row, we see that Loghain was incompetent, arrogant and to pigheaded to realize that he should of just confessed to his crimes after Ostager and save everyone, especially the HoF and Alistair, a whole lot of time. 

 

I will say this though, Calian was an idiot whose battleplan might have gotten everyone killed, that said though, when he did offer for a more safer alternative, waiting for Orlesian Warden help, Loghain shoots him down, so...

[Shadow Quickpaw]

It is rather heavily implied that he intended to abandon the battleplan at Ostagar from the get go. If he had been reacting to the way it was going down he would have saved his men as soon as he saw the plan wouldn't work (or better still: simply not agreed to the plan in the first place). They say hindsight is 20/20, and looking back we can all see the mistakes he made due to his paranoia and ego.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Let me ask this question?

 

If you play an Inquisitor who chooses to exile the Wardens, and Corypheus's dragon turned out to actually be an archdemon that needed a Warden to slay it properly, wouldn't your Inquisitor be just as guilty for dooming the world as Loghain so often is accused of for enacting what he saw as a just punishment without the full story?

 

Blackwall literally tells you that a Grey Warden is necessary for ending a Blight and killing an Archdemon. Also, it's historical known that before the Grey Wardens killing the Archdemon was impossible. So yes, if the Inquisitor doomed the world by exiling the Wardens then I would judge him/her as harshly as Loghain.

 

The both of them need to read up of their history books. 

[riverbanks]

This is...presumptive. I have of empathy- just not for Loghain. I have empathy for all the people (...)

 

Note that nowhere did I say that having empathy for Loghain prevents you from having empathy for all the victims of his actions too. It's not a zero-sum game of either this or that, and no middle of the road allowed inbetween. You can feel awful for everybody. I feel bad for Loghain and for Alistair, for Cailan and for Anora, for Rowan and for Maric, for the soldiers and civillians of Ferelden who suffered under all these people and for those people in difficult positions making difficult choices... it sucks for everybody.

 

And you certainly can have empathy for some people and not others too - it's as valid a sentiment as any other. That was the point of "it relies a lot on empathy" - because liking Loghain relies a lot on having empathy for him, and if you don't... well. Disliking him is also a valid sentiment. There's nothing wrong with Loghain's story not hitting your sweet spot and bringing you only negative impressions instead - OP was asking about what makes people like him, though. There's plenty of reasons to dislike him that they're already familiar with.

 

Like, I get his sad and tragic backstory and why he was blinded by fear of an Orlesian invasion. But it is absolutely not enough to justify what he did, or earn him my empathy over all the other people who deserve it far more than he does. 

 

Again, liking a character does not necessarily equate making excuses for them. I do not justify, excuse, handwave, forgive etc a single thing he's done. He remains one of my favorite characters in the series, still.

[Steelcan]

 

Loghain, in-game, did commit treason. His declaring himself regent (you can't do that absent a legally incapable ruler), his poisoning of Eamon, his alliance with Howe, his selling elves into slavery... the list goes on. 

technically he should have been in full rights to do so, Anora has no claim to ruling Ferelden, just because she was the de facto ruler her status died with Cailan

[Steelcan]

Blackwall literally tells you that a Grey Warden is necessary for ending a Blight and killing an Archdemon. Also, it's historical known that before the Grey Wardens killing the Archdemon was impossible. So yes, if the Inquisitor doomed the world by exiling the Wardens then I would judge him/her as harshly as Loghain.

 

The both of them need to read up of their history books. 

they aren't privy to the actual workings of the wardens though, they have no reason to believe that it is necessary for a warden to be there.

 

Historical precedent doesn't cut it since Grey Wardens are the only ones usually capable of fighting through Darkspawn to get to the archdemon in the first place, furthermore, Loghain didn't believe it to be a Blight when he abandoned Cailan

[ComedicSociopathy]

they aren't privy to the actual workings of the wardens though, they have no reason to believe that it is necessary for a warden to be there.

 

Historical precedent doesn't cut it since Grey Wardens are the only ones usually capable of fighting through Darkspawn to get to the archdemon in the first place

 

Sure, the Grey Wardens have their stupid secrets, but you just said it your last sentence. They are usually the only one's capable of even reaching the Archdemon. Their masters of killing the creatures, and Loghain sacrificed them in a short-sighted retreat that cost him and Ferelden immensely.

 

Then again, you could argue there was no easy way of that crappy solution and Loghain was just picking the least crappy option. Honestly, the Ostagar was the least of his long list of bad decisions. 

[Steelcan]

Sure, the Grey Wardens have their stupid secrets, but you just said it your last sentence. They are usually the only one's capable of even reaching the Archdemon. Their masters of killing the creatures, and Loghain sacrificed them in a short-sighted retreat that cost him and Ferelden immensely.

Agreed, no doubt it was short sighted, but I don't think its implausible for Loghain to think he could succeed where others failed

[I present Chuck Bass]

they aren't privy to the actual workings of the wardens though, they have no reason to believe that it is necessary for a warden to be there.
 
Historical precedent doesn't cut it since Grey Wardens are the only ones usually capable of fighting through Darkspawn to get to the archdemon in the first place, furthermore, Loghain didn't believe it to be a Blight when he abandoned Cailan

Exactly, Loghains ignorance almost got Ferelden destroyed. Whatever his true intentions were.....
He dropped the ball big time.

[Steelcan]

Exactly, Loghains ignorance almost got Ferelden destroyed. Whatever his true intentions were.....
He dropped the ball big time.

true,

 

but I don't fault him for not knowing the truth about a notoriously secretive order

[I present Chuck Bass]

I definitely understand people who hate Loghain and even those that believe his decision at Ostagar nothing but a treachery with post-factum added explanation (or even orchestrated failure at Isthal).
However, holding against him the fact that he didn't know how important a Grey Warden is in defeating the Archdemon? That's just silly. We can hold people accountable when they make decisions bad in the light of information they have OR if we believe they could've had more information but neglected it. But when GW keep it a great secret how killing an Archdemon works AND they don't even disclose information that would make their "it's a blight, there is an Archdemon" anything more than a hunch - how can you blame the general for not taking into account those facts that were hidden from him? If you wanna blame someone, blame Wardens who had to be so damn secretive that the Ferelden could burn just to preserve their secret!
If Duncan told Cailan and Loghain why he thinks it's a blight - perhaps the whole strategy would be different. Perhaps Loghain despite his paranoia would actually see the darkspawn for the threat they were. Most likely he would at the very least cut the deal with orlesian Wardens to come help (while still denying entrance any other forces) or maybe he would bring in Wardens from some other place (Antiva? Nevarra?).
But Loghain didn't know. Nobody knew. Even as Ferelden was waiting to be destroyed, with no Wardens that would give any chance of actually ending the Blight - the Wardens sent a SPY. Not anyone to go up to Loghain and disclose their painful secret in hope that it could let them save the kingdom, no. Secrecy was more important, let the Ferelden burn if it must.
 
Sorry, I understand Wardens, I like them (a bit). But if you want to blame Loghain for not taking into account crucial piece of information PERHAPS it would be a bit more fair to rather blame those who hid said information from him, wouldn't you say?

Well idk, an ignorant man, is a dangerous one. Loghains choice cost Ferelden big time, and almost resulted in Ferelden being completely destroyed.

It's moot who's fault it is. It was known at this point, that grey wardens were essential to ending the blight( whether the reason was clear or not)... For him to let the wardens of Ferelden all die was a bad decision. That once choice almost destroyed Fereldens chance of defeating the blight, if not for two wardens.( HOF and Alistair).

It was made clear no one other nation was willing to help, Orlais literally watched it all happen.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Agreed, no doubt it was short sighted, but I don't think its implausible for Loghain to think he could succeed where others failed

 

[I present Chuck Bass]

true,
 
but I don't fault him for not knowing the truth about a notoriously secretive order

Plus there is still a piece of me that felt like he wanted King Cailan to die...

[Monica21]

Well idk, an ignorant man, is a dangerous one. Loghains choice cost Ferelden big time, and almost resulted in Ferelden being completely destroyed.

It's moot who's fault it is. It was known at this point, that grey wardens were essential to ending the blight( whether the reason was clear or not)... For him to let the wardens of Ferelden all die was a bad decision. That once choice almost destroyed Fereldens chance of defeating the blight, if not for two wardens.( HOF and Alistair).

It was made clear no one other nation was willing to help, Orlais literally watched it all happen.

It was actually not known. The last blight was 400 years ago and the Wardens had fallen largely into the realm of myth. People believe that the darkspawn are gone for good, and that's a conversation option you get in the human noble origin when introduced to Duncan.

People know the Wardens have defeated archdemons in the past. No one, not even your own Warden or Alistair, knows why. It's very easy by this time to chalk them up to an order of great warriors without having any idea that there's anything special about them.