He struck a cord with me; I saw a war myself, i saw some ****ed up **** you wouldn't find in any sort of fictional media.
And he was the same; he saw the brutality of the occupation, and then the rebellion and then actually building a nation from scratch.
He's a man that i honestly could identify with.
That's personal and not character related i know.
My feelings about Loghain are extremely complicated.
In any play through where my Warden isn't in a romance with Alistair, he lives. Once when my Warden was in a romance with Alistair, he still lived. But it isn't because I'm a Loghain fan, it's because the idea of slaughtering him right there in the Landsmeet seems absurd to me when I could and probably should use him instead. Killing him at the landsmeet means spraying his daughter, the Queen, in his blood. It means destroying a potential tool against the blight. It might mean having to listen to that heart wrenching exchange between he and Anora before his head is hacked off. I can't reconcile that decision with my instincts easily.
I can only do it for Alistair's sake. Sometimes.
The rest of the time usually involved hardened Alistair stuck on a throne with Anora, and the surly, prickly, very sad man that is Loghain graced my camp for last very melancholy portion of the game.
I don't think Loghain was as much a tactical genius as his fans do, at least not during the course of Origins, and Stolen Throne didn't make me like him better than I had...but I acknowledge that he's an extremely complicated man whose personal tragedies influenced most of his decisions.
I would never let him make the ultimate sacrifice against the Archdemon, because that's exactly what he wants, and I'm too petty to give it to him. I don't want there to be a well attended memorial to him in Denerim. I don't want people to forget all of his more horrific decisions and only remember the war hero.
When it comes to Inquisition, he stays alive because I think sparing the Grey Warden over Hawke is probably the wiser decision, and I have a kind of compulsion to kill of a lot of my heroes. So basically, if Loghain survived the Landsmeet, he probably survives through all three games for me.
And all of that while still not really liking him all that much.
Oh yeah, that's why I always feel bad killing him. Deep down he cared about Ferelden probably more than anyone else.
Threnn sums it up about right.
Threnn sums it up about right.
Threnn's so hardcore in her Loghain devotion she doesn't even find making him a Warden acceptable. She still thinks his tactics during all of Origins could have "led Ferelden to greatness" despite the fact that he was (albeit unknowingly) actively trying to destroy Ferelden's only hope of survival.
Maybe she thinks he could have killed the Archdemon with sheer force of will.
Threnn's so hardcore in her Loghain devotion she doesn't even find making him a Warden acceptable. She still thinks his tactics during all of Origins could have "led Ferelden to greatness" despite the fact that he was (albeit unknowingly) actively trying to destroy Ferelden's only hope of survival.
Maybe she thinks he could have killed the Archdemon with sheer force of will.
Knowing Loghain, he probably could've. 
That man could chew through steel like it was nothing
Recall what her maid told you.
She went to pay the new Arl a visit, likely that was all Loghain knew.
Yes, because he didn't know anything about all the things his loyal toadie Howe was doing, and he definitely didn't help him do those things. 
Again, his real mistake was not at Ostagar, which was simply a rout. It was in deciding to scapegoat the Wardens afterward and try to hunt down survivors, and in forcing a war with the Bannorn without even trying to appease them. He had reasons for trying to deny that it was a real Blight he was seeing. They're not very good ones, true. However he had already seen one conspiracy between Orlesians and Wardens that nearly got Maric killed, and he wasn't going to let the same thing happen to him and Anora. He was also haunted by Flemeth's prophecy. Once he committed to the course, his stubbornness didn't let him turn aside. And the need for a plot for Origins, naturally.Yes but come on, the first blight lasted two centuries. Everyone knows that. Everyone also knows that the until the grey wardens came along, killing the archdemon wasn't possible. It doesn't matter if people understand how they kill them, it's simple enough to understand without grey wardens it's never worked. All of this is recorded history. Do I expect every commoner to know this?no. But Loghain yes. Everyone knew grey wardens ended blights, it didn't matter how, all that matters is people knew they did. Loghain jeopardized all of Ferelden with his decision, knowing the importance of the grey wardens to ending blights( he doesn't have to understand how they exactly kill an archdemon only that they do). If Alistair and the HOF died, Ferelden goes under. I'm not saying he could have turned the tide of the battle, he probably couldn't, but he could have rescued some grey wardens that much I know.
Loghain, in-game, did commit treason. His declaring himself regent (you can't do that absent a legally incapable ruler), his poisoning of Eamon, his alliance with Howe, his selling elves into slavery... the list goes on.
Wait a minute everything you want but, honestly Poisoning that cockroach of Eamon and ruin the life of his wife was the best thing to do, seriously i cannot Understand why Alistair not shaking hands to Loghain for having the courage to have done something he should have done to Eamon and Isolde long ago with his own hands.It seems that Alistair has never understand that Isolde, Duncan and Eamon are only opportunists
Duncan, seriously? He save Alistair's ass and yours when he sent both of you to the tower of Ishal. Let's not forget that Loghain along with Howe are responsible to the Cousland Massacre.
Duncan, seriously? He save Alistair's ass and yours when he sent both of you to the tower of Ishal. Let's not forget that Loghain along with Howe are responsible to the Cousland Massacre.
According to Gaider, Loghain didn't know about the Cousland massacre and had nothing to do with it. He did ally with Howe afterwards, but he had little choice at that point, since it was all fait accompli and Howe had occupied both Highever and the arling of Denerim by the time he got back there.
Let's look at a few facts:
Loghain had the HoF and Alistair hunted down during Origins. Not to get rid of the last of the Wardens, but because they had information about him that could be politically damaging, and because they were obviously the best way to take him down. He saw himself as the savior of his homeland. He couldn't let himself be taken out of power. No one else could do what he did.
Loghain left Ostagar. Honestly, Cailan was like a little kid, wanting to go into battle with legendary heroes. Loghain has been called the greatest military mind in the world many times throughout the series. Imagine his frustration when the king won't listen to him. Consistently. That has to get at a guy over time.
He was trying his best to be a good guy, but obviously lost his way. My thoughts were always that Loghain was Bioware's attempt at a morally grey character (one of a couple in the series, obviously). Almost all good fantasy fiction is full of morally grey areas, and they would be no different. He's not good or bad the way Jamie Lannister isn't good or bad. He's simply a man, doing things that benefit both himself and his country (in his opinion). Yes, he let Arl Howe take out the Couslands in a petty power play, but that kind of thing is so incredibly common in feudal systems, especially in fictional fantasy, that you could say that it was political necessity. He knew he wouldn't be able to hold a regency on his own and needed the support of at least one powerful noble house. Taking out the Couslands was the cost of Howe's support. Why didn't he go to the Couslands? Or Eamon? Who knows? Loghain, again, has a tactical mind first, and a right/wrong mind second. Maybe he was more concerned with practical assets than who was a good person. He knew he was fighting a war here, and had to consider practicality above all else.
In the end, again, he's not good or bad. He's just a guy. Like everyone else.
According to Gaider, Loghain didn't know about the Cousland massacre and had nothign to do with it. He did ally with Howe afterwards, but he had little choice at that point, since it was all fait accompli and Howe had occupied both Highever and the arling of Denerim by the time he got back there.
But Loghain will find a way to dispose Bryce Cousland just like he did with Eamon even if he doesn't have any involvement with the massacre and he tolerate all of Howe's schemes though. Selling elves, torturing nobles and such.
But Loghain will find a way to dispose Bryce Cousland just like he did with Eamon even if he doesn't have any involvement with the massacre and he tolerate all of Howe's schemes though. Selling elves, torturing nobles and such.
Possibly, but you can't use what he might have done as evidence of his crimes. He's got plenty without that, and a Cousland has plenty of RP reason to hate him simply for allying with Howe.
I understand that some people find it satisfying to kill him. Bioware set it up that way, in fact, as Mary Kirby said- they made it so that you could kill the bad guy, get the girl and go home. But there is more to the story if people want to look deeper.
Again, his real mistake was not at Ostagar, which was simply a rout. It was in deciding to scapegoat the Wardens afterward and try to hunt down survivors, and in forcing a war with the Bannorn without even trying to appease them. He had reasons for trying to deny that it was a real Blight he was seeing. They're not very good ones, true. However he had already seen one conspiracy between Orlesians and Wardens that nearly got Maric killed, and he wasn't going to let the same thing happen to him and Anora. He was also haunted by Flemeth's prophecy. Once he committed to the course, his stubbornness didn't let him turn aside. And the need for a plot for Origins, naturally.None of those reasons justify his actions, but they do allow some of us to see him as human and fallible rather than just as a villain that gives you some gratification in killing.
I always chop his head off, since my buddy Alistair wants it. Also trying to get me killled has that effect, payback and all that jazz.
Well said, I keep forgetting about the Orlesians/Wardens and Maric ordeal. Anyway I don't see him as a villain... I only kill him because of Alistair really.
Got to admit that if wasn't for my best bro/husbando demanding his head, I probably would have at given him a chance in the Wardens, but since bros before traitorous regents rule is in effect, I can't save him.
Oh well, Alistair/Loghain would have been grand to hear.
Got to admit that if wasn't for my best bro/husbando demanding his head, I probably would have at given him a chance in the Wardens, but since bros before traitorous regents rule is in effect, I can't save him.
Oh well, Alistair/Loghain would have been grand to hear.
Not one of Alistair's finest moments. The Theirin boys do like their occasional hair flip tantrums.
Blackwall literally tells you that a Grey Warden is necessary for ending a Blight and killing an Archdemon. Also, it's historical known that before the Grey Wardens killing the Archdemon was impossible. So yes, if the Inquisitor doomed the world by exiling the Wardens then I would judge him/her as harshly as Loghain.
The both of them need to read up of their history books.
Blackwall tells you that all you have to do is hit an archdemon with your sword, it just has to be grey warden swords, and does not go into any detail at all. My dwarven Inquisitor who banished the Wardens was all "Right....any reason it has to be Grey Warden swords that do the killing?" in his head. He was roleplayed as being very skeptical.
It was a claim without proof to him.
And fair enough. But the history books don't tell us "why" only Grey Wardens can end blight, only that Grey Wardens "have" ended blights. The fact that Wardens are actually truly needed is largely thought to be a myth or legend these days because no one besides the Wardens know the secret behind archdemons.
Again, it's common knowledge Grey Wardens are needed to end Blights. Even Cailan knew this. If you want to roleplay someone skeptical, fine, but don't act like everyone else in Thedas ignores history.
Knowing Loghain, he probably could've.
That man could chew through steel like it was nothing
Indeed! He has qunari teeth. 
Again, it's common knowledge Grey Wardens are needed to end Blights. Even Cailan knew this. If you want to roleplay someone skeptical, fine, but don't act like everyone else in Thedas ignores history.
Look into the history books and tell me "why" only Grey Wardens can end a blight.
You can look into history and see Grey Wardens "have" ended blights, and they make the claim that only a Grey Warden can, and that Grey Wardens are needed. But if you ask them and are not a member of the order on "why" being a Grey Warden is so special that only they can end the blight, they're remarkably tight-lipped.
Not even Alistair, someone who was a Warden for six months before our Warden joined, actually knew "why," and asks Riordan if there is actually more to it than bashing the archdemon over the head.
Anyone who looks at history in Thedas can see that Grey Wardens have ended the blights, and anyone who knows the wardens know they say that only a Warden can end a blight. But none of that tells you "why" only a Grey Warden can.
Without knowing the secret, a skeptical commander can look at the wardens and go, "So your order defeated blights four times in the past. Great, so how did they do it?"
Then the warden would go "I can't tell you."
Then the commander can, and likely would go, "Why should I believe you?"
Warden goes, "Because Wardens have ended blights in the past?"
Commander goes, "How?"
Warden goes, "It's a secret."
Then the commander bangs his head against the wall, remembers the wardens allied with Orlais and nearly got his best friend and king killed, and worked with darkspawn to infect all the surface and turn them into blighted beings, all within the last 20 years, and suddenly the wardens don't seem so honorable or needed.
<snip>
It's not just that no one knows how the Wardens do their thing, it's that no one, aside from the Wardens, believes it's a Blight. Cailan even questions it. Duncan admits that an Archdemon has not been sighted and you just have Duncan saying, "I believe with everything in me that this is a Blight." Well, okay then. Why? He's not going to tell you that they dream about the Archdemon or hordes marching on Ostagar, or that they can understand the Archdemon. Up until the Joining, even your Warden doesn't know. You can even ask Duncan if it's a true Blight, which is a big indicator that the Wardens are doing a terrible job of spreading the news around.
Look into the history books and tell me "why" only Grey Wardens can end a blight.
Look in a history book and tell me when anyone besides a Grey Warden has ended a Blight or where anyone who's not a Grey Warden thinks they can. The fact is, no one in Thedas believes otherwise, and everyone in Thedas is correct in that a Grey Warden is needed. You can try to break the mold all you want, but your view is accepted nowhere.
I'll admit it's too bad that I have to read the Stolen Throne in order for me to understand why Loghain is the man he is in the games. If that was somehow integrated in Origins It would've prevented me from executing him.
Retour en haut