150 réponses à ce sujet

[Riot Inducer]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but at Ostagar. If you talk to the guard outside the Tower of Ishal before the battle he mentions it's closed off while Loghain's men investigate tunnels discovered under the tower, the same tunnels that the darkspawn use to overrun the tower in the battle. The fact that the tunnels didn't get mentioned at all during the strategy meeting, and indeed even the fact that the Tower of Ishal remained the lynchpin of the whole strategy after discovering the tunnels is a pretty dead giveaway that Loghain planned on abandoning Cailan in the battle. The tower was never supposed to be lit. The fact that the HOF and Alistair managed to light it at all is the only reason that there was any doubt that Loghain wasn't just retreating from a lost battle. 

[Addai]

According to Gaider, Loghain had planned contingencies, but only made the final decision what to do when he saw the beacon lit.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

What's there to understand?

 

He retreated from a doom suicide mission to save troops then tried to unite the country under their queen (Anora) so they could defeat the Blight without the need of Orlesians or their Grey Warden allies. It backfired on him when the lords refused to unite and so he was forced to use desperate measures to keep order but since he sucks as a politician, it just screwed up in his face.

 

He's a man trying to protect his people and his home country from the Blight and Orlesian take over.

 

I realized all of this the first time I played DAO and without the need of Stolen Throne.

[Cecilia]

If I'm not mistaken, isn't Loghain implicit in Howe's slaughter of the Couslands? If nothing else, he gives Howe the Teyrn-ship after he becomes regent and I find it difficult to accept that Cailan never told him about Howe's treachery (if you play a human noble). 

 

That and poisoning Arl Eamon are both pretty ... leery actions in my opinion. Loghain may have been a good or even great man once, but he certainly wasn't one by the end of DA:O 

[dragonflight288]

If I'm not mistaken, isn't Loghain implicit in Howe's slaughter of the Couslands? If nothing else, he gives Howe the Teyrn-ship after he becomes regent and I find it difficult to accept that Cailan never told him about Howe's treachery (if you play a human noble). 

 

That and poisoning Arl Eamon are both pretty ... leery actions in my opinion. Loghain may have been a good or even great man once, but he certainly wasn't one by the end of DA:O 

 

But he does admit his mistakes and try to atone if he lives, and he most definitely is a great man in Inquisition. 

[Cecilia]

But he does admit his mistakes and try to atone if he lives, and he most definitely is a great man in Inquisition. 

 

It's a little like the Blackwall argument for me, tbh - I agree Blackwall is a good person, but that doesn't mean that I don't think he deserved to die for his actions. He was basically lucky that he escaped his consequences long enough to become a better person. So no, I don't think future redemption arcs mean that someone doesn't deserve to die at a given point in their story so I can't really get behind sparing Loghain esp if you play as a human noble origin - I stand by my opinion that Loghain as of DA:O isn't a particularly decent sort of person (Granted I'm a hypocrite because I can't kill Anders ;; )

[X Equestris]

If I'm not mistaken, isn't Loghain implicit in Howe's slaughter of the Couslands? If nothing else, he gives Howe the Teyrn-ship after he becomes regent and I find it difficult to accept that Cailan never told him about Howe's treachery (if you play a human noble). 
 
That and poisoning Arl Eamon are both pretty ... leery actions in my opinion. Loghain may have been a good or even great man once, but he certainly wasn't one by the end of DA:O

I don't think he was in on it from the beginning. Howe also accused the Couslands of plotting with Orlais which, while ridiculous, might have reinforced Loghain's belief that an Orlesian conspiracy was afoot. There's also the fact that Howe has significant numbers of soldiers and control of the north by the time Loghain gets back to Denerim. Even if he wanted to do something about Howe, Howe has made himself too politically valuable.

[Riot Inducer]

According to Gaider, Loghain had planned contingencies, but only made the final decision what to do when he saw the beacon lit.

I find that...difficult to reconcile with what is presented in game. He really didn't do anything to safeguard the weakness that was the backdoor to Ishal, the Warden and Alistair are only there at the insistence of Cailan. Idk to me it seems that either Loghain had planned for Ishal to fall in order to legitimize his abandonment of Cailan and the Wardens he distrusted or he was simply a fool who didn't recognize a massive flaw in his strategy. And I don't believe Loghain even lost to paranoia would be so horrid a strategist.

[X Equestris]

I find that...difficult to reconcile with what is presented in game. He really didn't do anything to safeguard the weakness that was the backdoor to Ishal, the Warden and Alistair are only there at the insistence of Cailan. Idk to me it seems that either Loghain had planned for Ishal to fall in order to legitimize his abandonment of Cailan and the Wardens he distrusted or he was simply a fool who didn't recognize a massive flaw in his strategy. And I don't believe Loghain even lost to paranoia would be so horrid a strategist.

No one knew that the tunnel systems under Ishal would let the darkspawn in. Loghain had actually left a company at the tower, and you see them get overrun as you reach it.

[Joe25]

Loghain is like an onion that you can only unpeel once you read the first Dragon Age novel. You love him because unlike Maric he doesn't spend 85% of the time whining. Even though, Maric has everything handed to him on a silver platter, and Loghain has nothing.   

[Addai]

I find that...difficult to reconcile with what is presented in game. He really didn't do anything to safeguard the weakness that was the backdoor to Ishal, the Warden and Alistair are only there at the insistence of Cailan. Idk to me it seems that either Loghain had planned for Ishal to fall in order to legitimize his abandonment of Cailan and the Wardens he distrusted or he was simply a fool who didn't recognize a massive flaw in his strategy. And I don't believe Loghain even lost to paranoia would be so horrid a strategist.

I don't see how it legitimizes it at all, if that's what you believe, and no one ever mentions it. How would they even know?

 

As I said upthread, people focus on Ostagar too much. The horde was much larger than expected, end of story. Loghain's failings were afterward.

[Sifr]

If I'm not mistaken, isn't Loghain implicit in Howe's slaughter of the Couslands? If nothing else, he gives Howe the Teyrn-ship after he becomes regent and I find it difficult to accept that Cailan never told him about Howe's treachery (if you play a human noble). 

 

That and poisoning Arl Eamon are both pretty ... leery actions in my opinion. Loghain may have been a good or even great man once, but he certainly wasn't one by the end of DA:O 

 

There's not much to suggest that he was in on what happened to the Couslands, that seems mostly down to Howe.

 

As for the poisoning of Arl Eamon, well... I kinda see why Loghain doesn't like him and might think that he's trying to turn Alistair into a puppet king like he attempted with Cailan? We know that Eamon was trying to get Cailan's ear and convince him to divorce Anora, and it does seem strange that Eamon should suddenly become so concerned with Alistair's well-being only after he becomes politically valuable?

 

I don't think he was in on it from the beginning. Howe also accused the Couslands of plotting with Orlais which, while ridiculous, might have reinforced Loghain's belief that an Orlesian conspiracy was afoot. There's also the fact that Howe has significant numbers of soldiers and control of the north by the time Loghain gets back to Denerim. Even if he wanted to do something about Howe, Howe has made himself too politically valuable.

 

Yeah, Howe seems to have probably planned to murder them on his own and went off-script by enacting his little coup while everyone was busy down in Ostagar, so by the time that Loghain found out, he was stuck having to go along with it because Howe was one of his strongest allies?

 

Sure, Teyrn Cousland was a Loyalist and friend of the Grey Wardens, so he'd definitely not have bought the story about what happened at Ostagar and probably would have joined Teagan in accusing Loghain of regicide, so it's not like his murder didn't benefit Loghain... but the brazen nature of how Howe enacted it seems to have been unplanned?

 

At least with Eamon, the plot was clever and subtle, having Jowan be the patsy used to poison the Arl and the one fingers pointed to naturally (which they did) when the Arl's illness was discovered. And as an Apostate and Maleficar, it's not like he was exactly innocent to begin with, so I doubt Loghain would have lost sleep over setting him up to take the fall?

 

If there was a plot to kill Teyrn Cousland, it probably was a lot more detailed and involved perhaps some accident was waiting for him on the way to Ostagar and evidence of a conspiracy to be discovered on his person? But Howe jumped the gun and decided to just attack Highever instead?

[ctd757]

He is a traitor his actions are ridiculous. Even if Cailen had still died in the battlefield he is a traitor. No excuse for thinking Wardens were expendable.

[TheLastArchivist]

He is a traitor his actions are ridiculous. Even if Cailen had still died in the battlefield he is a traitor. No excuse for thinking Wardens were expendable.

 

Perhaps because only the members of the Order know why Wardens are immune to the taint, since it is a well-kept secret?

Which makes an outsider wonder if this is not an invention, one made to excuse the need for the order's existence at all?

 

Consider that and the episodes of Warden betrayal that happened not only once in Ferelden History (the whole mess of Genevieve, Bregan and Remille that almost got Maric KILLED), but twice (Sophia Dryden), plus the fact that Cailan wanted to summon the help of Orlesian Wardens and you have a patriot with military experience worried this isn't the ripe opportunity for a coup d'État.

 

And judging by how treacherous Celene, Gaspard and Briala were in DA:I, plus the intimate letters shared between Cailan and Celene (check Ostagar DLC), we have evidence that Loghain was right all along not to trust the fate of Ferelden into Warden's hands.

 

Did he betray Cailan? Undoubtedly.

 

Did he do that because he feared Cailan was too naive, not prone to listening to advice, fantasizing about great battles rather than willing to see the murky reality of politics? That Cailan was therefore a weak king that would jeopardize his own country, his own people due to his poor judgement? Obviously!

 

If you see both sides, you'll realize Cailan's leadership could be a threat to Ferelden as much as Loghain's betrayal. Suppose Cailan dumped Anora and maried Celene. She would manipulate him. And then, once the chevaliers DID invade Ferelden as Loghain feared, what then? It would be a matter of time until the people asked for the king's head, would it not?

 

Nothing is worse than a weak leader. And what I don't understand is how Loghain remained loyal to Maric for so long when he displays the same weaknesses as Cailan and Alistair (although Alistair was a bit roughened by his life as a Warden and his training as a Templar).

[TEWR]

If I'm not mistaken, isn't Loghain implicit in Howe's slaughter of the Couslands? If nothing else, he gives Howe the Teyrn-ship after he becomes regent and I find it difficult to accept that Cailan never told him about Howe's treachery (if you play a human noble). 

 

That and poisoning Arl Eamon are both pretty ... leery actions in my opinion. Loghain may have been a good or even great man once, but he certainly wasn't one by the end of DA:O 

 

He wasn't involved in the Cousland Massacre, nor did he "give" Howe the teyrnir of Highever. Howe took it by force and secured it for himself, and Loghain couldn't challenge him because at this point in time Howe has also forcibly taken control of Denerim for himself and now controls the Coastlands, which are vital to Loghain's war effort against the Darkspawn and then when the Bannorn act like idiots the war effort to bring the nobles back in line. Alienating someone of Howe's power would threaten the capabilities of his troops and open up a third front to fight on.

 

As for Cailan and Loghain, yes, Cailan did tell him if you rolled a HN. But Loghain is working with Howe not because he wants to but because he needs to for Ferelden. Loghain is willing to swallow his personal hatred of the man, knowing full well that he's a slimeball, so that the nation stands a better chance of surviving. Also, he believed he was above Howe's influence, which he wasn't. 

 

As for poisoning Arl Eamon, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Poison is politics. It happens in every continent, in every nation. From Orlais to Antiva to Orzammar. If you take issue with one you must take issue with them all.

 

The only difference here is that Loghain got caught.

 

 

 

Did he betray Cailan? Undoubtedly.

 

No, not really.

[Cecilia]

He wasn't involved in the Cousland Massacre, nor did he "give" Howe the teyrnir of Highever. Howe took it by force and secured it for himself, and Loghain couldn't challenge him because at this point in time Howe has also forcibly taken control of Denerim for himself and now controls the Coastlands, which are vital to Loghain's war effort against the Darkspawn and then when the Bannorn act like idiots the war effort to bring the nobles back in line. Alienating someone of Howe's power would threaten the capabilities of his troops and open up a third front to fight on.

 

As for Cailan and Loghain, yes, Cailan did tell him if you rolled a HN. But Loghain is working with Howe not because he wants to but because he needs to for Ferelden. Loghain is willing to swallow his personal hatred of the man, knowing full well that he's a slimeball, so that the nation stands a better chance of surviving. Also, he believed he was above Howe's influence, which he wasn't. 

 

As for poisoning Arl Eamon, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Poison is politics. It happens in every continent, in every nation. From Orlais to Antiva to Orzammar. If you take issue with one you must take issue with them all.

 

The only difference here is that Loghain got caught.

 

 

No, not really.

 

Do we know for a fact Loghain wasn't complicit? I do remember seeing other players stating that Howe wouldn't have done what he did without knowing that he had the political backing of Loghain. 

 

There are also varying cultural norms - if we're in Orlais, poisoning another person is probably par for the course, but Ferelden is implied to be more akin to the North in ASoIaF - people who value honor and loyalty and aboveboardness and look down on that sneaky Orlesian backstabbery.

[TEWR]

Do we know for a fact Loghain wasn't complicit? I do remember seeing other players stating that Howe wouldn't have done what he did without knowing that he had the political backing of Loghain. 

 

There are also varying cultural norms - if we're in Orlais, poisoning another person is probably par for the course, but Ferelden is implied to be more akin to the North in ASoIaF - people who value honor and loyalty and aboveboardness and look down on that sneaky Orlesian backstabbery.

 

The devs confirmed it eons ago, but the quote where it was overtly stated has fallen into obscurity. I don't blame a person for taking what I say with a grain of salt, but logistically Howe had to have been planning his assault on Highever before news of the Blight even reached people. Storming a castle with your forces isn't something you can just plan out quickly. You have to have all kinds of things mapped out.

 

In the HN origin, it's stated Duncan spotted the horde 3 weeks prior to the opening. It's also stated that Bryce only received the call a few days ago, and then he sent the call out to Howe to get his forces.

 

The Blight just happened to coincide with Howe's treachery and Howe amassed enough power that Loghain wasn't going to alienate him, in my book. Because for Loghain to have backed Howe, it would have to mean that Loghain was planning to kill off Cailan just because when there was no exterior threat to the nation. The entire premise of peoples' belief that the two were colluding is that Loghain did it to remove a threat to his hopes that he could unify Ferelden under his banner.

 

Basically, because it would take time to plan, time before the Blight was even discovered, for the two to have been working together all that time makes Loghain seem like a power-mad villain who holds no sense of loyalty. If the idea of the two of them was to work and for Loghain to preserve his image to the players, it would have to rely on the Blight being the basis for the treachery in the name of the greater good.

 

None of that can happen in three weeks' time when your king has tasked you with amassing forces and going to Ostagar, where you're the one instrumental in every victory they've had thus far. When you've been at Ostagar for those three weeks, in fact.

 

Besides, Loghain would have more to gain from Bryce staying alive then Bryce being dead. Bryce is a royalist and a shrewd puppy in his own right. He would've supported Loghain and Anora (if perhaps worked to calm Loghain down from his actions for other roads to walk), helped the Bannorn see reason, and perhaps proposed that his younger son marry Anora.

 

To increase his own family's standing, to help the nation be peaceful, and no doubt because somewhere the Couslands must have some Theirin blood. If Sophia Dryden did (and she did) and she was just an Arlessa then surely a teyrn's family would as well.

 

Plus Bryce would've been at Ostagar and seen firsthand how disastrous it was, assuming he couldn't have 1) helped Cailan see reason or 2) the battle plan would've been the same despite the presence of Bryce's full forces and Howe's, were Howe not a treacherous weasel.

 

As for Ferelden and poison, Ferelden is a nation of short-sighted lords who have been known to go to war with each other over trees. TREES. Poison is really not that far out of the ballpark for them (and IIRC, historical lords and ladies have used it before anyway)

[Monica21]

<snip>

 

I have such a weird crush on you right now.

[dragonflight288]

I have such a weird crush on you right now.

 

I have a weird urge to laugh right now. 

[TEWR]

I have such a weird crush on you right now.

 

lol I've been taking cues from KoP it seems!

[Rogue Unit]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but at Ostagar. If you talk to the guard outside the Tower of Ishal before the battle he mentions it's closed off while Loghain's men investigate tunnels discovered under the tower, the same tunnels that the darkspawn use to overrun the tower in the battle. The fact that the tunnels didn't get mentioned at all during the strategy meeting, and indeed even the fact that the Tower of Ishal remained the lynchpin of the whole strategy after discovering the tunnels is a pretty dead giveaway that Loghain planned on abandoning Cailan in the battle. The tower was never supposed to be lit. The fact that the HOF and Alistair managed to light it at all is the only reason that there was any doubt that Loghain wasn't just retreating from a lost battle.

Just quoting so people will see this post and read it again

[Jedimaster88]

 

As for Ferelden and poison, Ferelden is a nation of short-sighted lords who have been known to go to war with each other over trees. TREES. Poison is really not that far out of the ballpark for them (and IIRC, historical lords and ladies have used it before anyway)

 

I´ve always felt that the people of Ferelden are more honest people. They seem to value honor and honesty and if I remember the codex right, loyalty very much. They may start wars over trees and such but thats pretty honest and direct, at least in my opinion. Stupid and brutal yes but honest. No scheming, poisoning, backstabbing etc...

 

Poison may be the way in Orlais, Antiva, Orzammar etc. but it doesnt mean Ferelden is the same way. Dont these other nations often think that Ferelden is a somewhat backwater place with its "barbaric" people?

[Luckyanna]

 

I don't think he was in on it from the beginning. Howe also accused the Couslands of plotting with Orlais which, while ridiculous, might have reinforced Loghain's belief that an Orlesian conspiracy was afoot.

 

That's Loghain's main failing right there. His paranoia is so strong he'll believe anything even remotely Orlesian is a threat. Even it's just rumors. It looks like Howe knew exactly which buttons to push with Loghain to get his tacit consent to get rid of the Couslands.

[Eliastion]

I'd stick to the thought that getting rid of Couslands was something Howe did on his own, with Loghain learning about the thing only later, with nothing he could really do about it...

Though I'd agree that using poison to get rid of someone is at the very least distasteful by Fereldan standards (as is hiring an assassin to get rid of the Warden and we've seen the "enthusiasm" with which Loghain accepted this measure).

 

But what I really wanted to talk about was the problem of holes in Loghain's strategy. Frankly, I quietly believe the tunnels were added only later, when the developers found out that sudden appearance of darkspawn without any foreshadowing would be considered an asspull That's why there was so little about them. But that's pure speculation, of course... The problem with strategy is a deeper one, and that's something I had to be reminded of at another point. The thing is: game developers suck at strategy and tactics. So, naturally, all the strategists and tacticians in the game are awful too (especially when you add compromising strategies for storytelling purposes) but the supposedly brilliant ones wil still hold an edge over those average and bad ones. Which leads to another conclusion: we can't really evaluate strategies we see in-game, we must stick to what we are TOLD about them. So, basically, when we are told that Loghain is a brilliant strategist and that he didn't plan on betraying Cailan, we should assume that is the case and what we shouldn't do is driving conclusions from how god-awful was strategy planned for Ostagar, especially with tunnels under Ishal discovered beforehand. Yeah, if it was a real-life brilliant commander we could assume he messed up on purpose, but it's a game and we're told it was not his plan. And I believe we should accept it.

Basically, I second what some people here already said - let's leave Ostagar alone, whatever our well-liked but incredibly childish and vengeful rather than looking for justice Alistair has to say on the matter, Loghain did what he could and what he felt was the best course of action: he retreated from a lost battle rather than lead whatever men he had left to be slaughtered. Could he have turned the tide of battle? It doesn't seem so (even if the signal had beem lit earlier). Should he have priorized safety of the wardens? I don't see any reason why he should. The history told him about contingents of elite warriors on their griffon steads (important asset when fighting and airborne enemy, mind you). Warriors specially trained to fight darkspawn. But what did he have at Ostagar? Two dozen men trying to establish symbolic Grey Warden presence? Bearing name of warrior order that lost its griffons four hundred years ago? That didn't even bother to affirm that YES, it definitely IS a blight and there's no doubt there is an Archdemon? From what Loghain had known, this being a real blight was Warden's hunch at best, they didn't even put in the effort of lying that they had seen the Archdemon. When the battle was about to begin Wardens were in fact the only ones fullly aware they are not fighting just a big Darkspawn incursion - something that does happen in Thedas once in a while when the numbers of Darkspawn swell.

 

So, let's leave Ostagar out of it. Loghain messed up more than his fair share of things, but I don't believe this battle to really be one of them.

[Addai]

Do we know for a fact Loghain wasn't complicit? I do remember seeing other players stating that Howe wouldn't have done what he did without knowing that he had the political backing of Loghain. 

 

There are also varying cultural norms - if we're in Orlais, poisoning another person is probably par for the course, but Ferelden is implied to be more akin to the North in ASoIaF - people who value honor and loyalty and aboveboardness and look down on that sneaky Orlesian backstabbery.

Gaider stated it in a long thread which was apparently nuked when the forums were changed over, called The Complete Defense of Loghain Mac Tir. And the only other place I knew where that was copied over was in a blog, and those also have been nuked. So, yes, we do know that from word of god, but I don't think you'll see it in writing.*

 

* Edit- AHA! I found it in the archives. Gaider's comments begin here. In it, he also states that Loghain did not plan to have the Tower overrun, and he would have saved Cailan if he thought it were possible.

 

 

That's Loghain's main failing right there. His paranoia is so strong he'll believe anything even remotely Orlesian is a threat. Even it's just rumors. It looks like Howe knew exactly which buttons to push with Loghain to get his tacit consent to get rid of the Couslands.

Since we now know that Orlais still has dynastic ambitions towards Ferelden- either by war or marriage to a weak king in the case of Celene- and since Orlais has taken over territory before on the pretext of occupying Blighted lands- he's not all that paranoid. In the Fourth Blight, when the Free Marches, Anderfels, Rivain and Antiva were decimated, the Orlesians sent only a token force to fight, according to World of Thedas. Ferelden is on their borders, true, but four legions of chevaliers is still a massive force. If I were Loghain, I too would be suspicious of chevaliers saying "we're here to help." He more than anyone alive knows what it took to get them out the last time.