19 réponses à ce sujet

[swk3000]

Anyone done any testing on how the damage from Vitaars are implemented in-game? Or gone digging in the game's code for the appropriate information? Because as I peruse the forums, I see plenty of information that can basically be expressed as, "OMG! Mask of the Grand Duchess is the best helm evar!" Now, certainly that's useful information, and it's usually backed up by math to prove it, but no one seems to care at all about the effect Vitaars may be having on the damage output of a Qunari character. The best info I can find simply says that the Arishok Vitaar is the strongest, and that it's found in the Forbidden Oasis. Again, useful information, but not what I want.

Also, just to put it in perspective, using both starting gear and a 69 damage staff/Arishok Vitaar combo, a Qunari mage may be receiving a constant 30% damage boost. This assumes that the damage of the Vitaars is added to your stave's base damage, then multiplied out by the damage of the spells you use. It also only uses the damage of the staff and Vitaar; nothing else (Magic, Willpower, Attack, Crit Chance, or Crit Damage) is factored into the math I've done. This may be wrong, but no one seems to care, so all I have to go on are wild assumptions. I'd like concrete information.

[PillarBiter]

I don't know where I read this, but I think that a vitaar adds to the base damage of a staff, sword or whatever.  And that it multiplies with it.

 

Otherwise, it'd be pretty useless. 

[swk3000]

Problem: I've seen devs add stuff to the game that wasn't implemented correctly (In Shining Armor in Fallout New Vegas), or wasn't really thought through all the way (Static Charge in Inquisition). You can say, "It has to work this way or it's useless", and I would be happy to believe it. Unfortunately, I don't trust games or devs as far as I can throw them, so I really want something more than that. Not that I don't appreciate the answer; I just want to make sure that's the way the game actually works, not just a logical assumption. Computers don't do logical, after all; they can only do literal.

[Fredward]

#QunariMasterRace?

[swk3000]

If this works the way PillarBiter says (and I really, really hope it does), then yes, at least for Mages. I doubt that the offensive boost will be quite as big for Rogues and Warriors, since their weapons tend to have significantly higher damage than equal-level staves, but for mages, yes, #QunariMasterRace.

[aznricepuff]

Vitaars simply add a flat value (the damage value listed in the inventory UI) to a character's base_damage* stat (both main-hand and off-hand). This means that the damage bonus from vitaars will be factored in correctly when calculating ability damage, bonus from attack%, crit damage bonus, etc.

 

*Reference the damage formula here: http://forum.bioware...mbat-mechanics/

[Rynas]

That's a huge bonus, especially for staffs.  The best in the game adds 19 damage, which would increase a T4 staff from 71 to 90 base damage (+26.8%).  Too bad it's such a pain in the butt to get.

[Elhanan]

That's a huge bonus, especially for staffs.  The best in the game adds 19 damage, which would increase a T4 staff from 71 to 90 base damage (+26.8%).  Too bad it's such a pain in the butt to get.

That may be the point actually; to forgo a comforting defense to gain an increase on the other end....

[Fredward]

Or you could just settle for the intense felandaris vitaar. Two points less damage but much easier to get and way, waaay, waaaaaaay better looking. I think it might be the only vitaar in game which doesn't warrant switching off helmets.

[swk3000]

Vitaars simply add a flat value (the damage value listed in the inventory UI) to a character's base_damage* stat (both main-hand and off-hand). This means that the damage bonus from vitaars will be factored in correctly when calculating ability damage, bonus from attack%, crit damage bonus, etc.
 
*Reference the damage formula here: http://forum.bioware...mbat-mechanics/

If I'm understanding that page correctly, it's saying that the base damage is the one displayed on the stat page under Main Hand/Off-Hand Damage, and not the damage of the weapon itself. Equipping a Vitaar alters those damage values, so the Vitaar's damage is therefore used in calculating damage damage done by abilities and spells, and gets multiplied out by Attack and Crit values. That sound correct? Because as it stands, I'm understanding this to say that the Qunari Mage inflicts nearly 30% more damage than other races, assuming equal gear and stats. That's nothing to sneeze at. I'm surprised that no one seems to have caught this.

Also, if I'm reading that page correctly, Spirit Blade actually procs runes?! And at 3x the stated value?! this is massive news for me, as my preferred specialization for the Mage is the Knight Enchanter.

aznricepuff, thanks for taking the time to do all the testing on the combat mechanics, and thanks for setting my mind at ease on this. I appreciate it. And PillarBiter, I apologize if I came across as rude after your response. It was nothing against you; as I said, I don't trust devs as far as I can throw them.

[aznricepuff]

If I'm understanding that page correctly, it's saying that the base damage is the one displayed on the stat page under Main Hand/Off-Hand Damage, and not the damage of the weapon itself. Equipping a Vitaar alters those damage values, so the Vitaar's damage is therefore used in calculating damage damage done by abilities and spells, and gets multiplied out by Attack and Crit values. That sound correct? Because as it stands, I'm understanding this to say that the Qunari Mage inflicts nearly 30% more damage than other races, assuming equal gear and stats. That's nothing to sneeze at. I'm surprised that no one seems to have caught this.

Also, if I'm reading that page correctly, Spirit Blade actually procs runes?! And at 3x the stated value?! this is massive news for me, as my preferred specialization for the Mage is the Knight Enchanter.

aznricepuff, thanks for taking the time to do all the testing on the combat mechanics, and thanks for setting my mind at ease on this. I appreciate it. And PillarBiter, I apologize if I came across as rude after your response. It was nothing against you; as I said, I don't trust devs as far as I can throw them.

 

Yeah, you got everything right. Including the part about spirit blade + runes.

 

Vitaars are indeed pretty powerful, but only for mages since base damage values for staves are so low. For any other class though, you're essentially trading a ~10% armor increase for a ~10% damage output increase.

[swk3000]

I figured that Warriors and Rogues wouldn't get as much benefit, given that their weapons are significantly stronger at pretty much all stages of the game.

[Fredward]

Would vitaar damage also be x3 on spirit blade? Because if it is...

 

I usually prefer rift mages for my mages (dat cc tho) but if this is the case it's a pretty compelling argument.

[PillarBiter]

Or you could just settle for the intense felandaris vitaar. Two points less damage but much easier to get and way, waaay, waaaaaaay better looking. I think it might be the only vitaar in game which doesn't warrant switching off helmets.

 

The Bull's unique helmet looks the best anyway, I always give him that. And it gives armor. More useful for his tanking than the petty damage fo warriors that vitaars give. 

[swk3000]

Would vitaar damage also be x3 on spirit blade? Because if it is...

I usually prefer rift mages for my mages (dat cc tho) but if this is the case it's a pretty compelling argument.

Personally, I don't think so. Vitaar aren't runes, and their damage is factored in with your base weapon damage, so it's not even being calculated at the time that runes are proccing their damage. If Vitaar damage is being tripled on Spirit Blade, I'd call it a bug.

[aznricepuff]

Vitaar damage is essentially being tripled on spirit blade. Vitaar damage simply adds to base_damage, and all abilities (including spirit blade) use base_damage as a starting point for calculating damage. This, combined with the fact that spirit blade has a 300% ability multiplier, means you can think of vitaar's contribution to spirit blade's final damage as being equal to 3x the vitaar's stated damage bonus.

 

However the key word here is final damage; vitaar damage bonus to base_damage is always the same (whatever the item description states it is). It's just that because of spirit blade's 300% ability multiplier, once spirit blade's final damage is calculated the vitaar damage bonus gets multiplied by 3.

 

For those of you who like algebra (the damage formulas below have been heavily simplified, not taking into account attack bonus, crit, flanking, resistances, etc.):

 

spirit_blade_dmg = base_dmg * 3 // the 3 is ability multiplier
spirit_blade_dmg = (base_dmg_without_vitaar + vitaar_bonus) * 3 // separate out vitaar's bonus dmg
spirit_blade_dmg = base_dmg_without_vitaar * 3 + vitaar_bonus * 3
spirit_blade_dmg = spirit_blade_dmg_without_vitaar + (vitaar_bonus * 3) // vitaar bonus essentially tripled with spirit blade due to the 3x ability multiplier

 

The specific case with runes was mentioned because spirit blade is the only ability that procs rune damage and it happens to apply a 3x ability multiplier to rune damage as well (as opposed to the 1x when rune damage is procced from autoattacks).

 

However rune damage and vitaar damage are not treated similarly and should not be directly compared - rune damage is treated as a separate damage source with specific conditions for proccing and it uses its own base_damage value, not the attacker's main-hand or off-hand damage values, while vitaar damage simply adds to the attacker's main-hand and off-hand damage.

 

In other words, vitaar damage does not actually exist or manifest itself in-game as a separate damage source (unlike runes which have their own floaties). It is entirely subsumed under the main/off-hand damage values of the wearer. The only way to separate out vitaar damage is mathematically (like above).

[swk3000]

To add to what aznricepuff is saying, and hopefully to clarify it, Spirit Blade multiplies the Vitaar damage by 3 because that's it's multiplier. By the same token, Fire Mine multiplies the Vitaar damage by 16, Chain Lightning multiplies it by 2.5, etc. However, as has been stated, this damage is already factored into the damage caused by these abilities, so you don't see any more damage numbers than the other races do; instead, you just get bigger numbers.

[Exalus]

Time to make a qunari rift mage, sorry solas, youre no long supremo mage-o.

[DreamSever]

kinda in topic but slightly off, why is the vitaar icon in the magic section, is it magic?

[swk3000]

If I remember correctly, according to the lore printed on the item card of every Vitaar, there is some magic involved with them. Whether the magic is in the paint itself or in how it was prepared we don't know, but there is some involved.