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DAI: A return to old virtues, though not yet to old form. Areas of improvement


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#1
Ieldra

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This is a re-post of something I posted earlier in the Scuttlebutt section, and someone suggested that I should post it in the Feedback forum as a separate thread, so I'm doing that.

When I'm considering DAI as a story-driven rpg, I feel oddly reminded of Bioware's early work. I've read Mark Darrah's statement that Bioware has "returned to form", and that's at least partly true, though I would rather say it has returned to old virtues, but has yet to reach its old form. DAI feels like a really good start, in much the same way BG1 did in its day. It has many things that make up a good rpg experience, but it lacks a certain connectedness and refinement, as well as a balance between the things in it, as if the developers knew what to do theoretically but lacked the experience to implement it throughout the game in a timely manner. I'll outline the main three problem areas as I see them:

1. Isolation

Maps, characters and missions feel too isolated from each other. We have first-class ingredients - some of Bioware's best characters, fantastic maps, a richly detailed world and its lore to draw from - but what's done with them doesn't connect organically to - or combine into - the greater story, or at all, in some cases. instead, every character has its own little plot. Some of those plots tie in to the greater world at some key point, but they don't feel as if they're part of the greater story, just addenda. Every map also has its little plot, which works well in isolation, more or less, but doesn't really connect with the rest of the world. One example is the Exalted Plains. The plot plays out exactly the same regardless of whether you've been to the Winter Palace or not, and the token line you can add (can you? I don't even recall exactly) about the end of the civil war feels like what it is - a token, and doesn't change how playing the map feels in the slightest. Emprise du Lion, another example. This map's plot is about the Red Templars, and you'd think whether you played In Hushed Whispers or Champions of the just would have a significant effect on this area. In this case, there isn't even a token line, the map remains completely unchanged down to the last line spoken by anyone, in spite of featuring one of the major factions which should be affected by one of the bigger decisions you make.

As a result of this isolation, the world and the story don't come together. The maps are great, the characters are great, the story missions are great, but the whole package comes across as a collection of pieces rather than one complex work made of all these elements. The only thing that holds it together somewhat is the war table. 

The next DA game, if its designed in a similar way, should use its companion characters more in story missions, rather than giving them their own little stories that stay isolated from the rest of the world. DA2 did this very much better, I'm almost embarrassed to say, but then storytelling was never one of DA2's weaker aspects. Also, someone should look into way for making maps appear less isolated. This ties in to the next point...

2. Locations that feel lifeless

In purely mission-based games, you can get away with static content. After all, people will only visit a location once, or maybe twice, and hub locations exist for not much more than their function. In games with strong open-world elements, one of their appeals is that you can revisit locations, do stuff you've missed earlier, talk to different NPCs and see, maybe, how your choices have affected them. The thing is, for that to work, the location needs dynamic AIs, AIs that move around, appear as if they have their lives to live, talk differently to you depending on various variables, some story-related, some maybe class/race-related. Bioware has spoken of the necessity to make the world responsive to your choices, yet exactly that is an area where DAI feels lacking outside of major decisions and some companion interactions. The only place that approaches a believable level of dynamism is Val Royeaux, but even there characters don't have their own lives - visit the place repeatedly in short order and you have the impression it's populated by advertising pillars.
Ironically, I get the impression that Bioware actually spent more resources on reponsiveness than in earlier DA games, yet I feel they were misallocated. They mainly affect companion characters, which of course is good and desirable, but it's the world which needed to be more responsive at least as much, especially since many companions didn't feel like they were part of the story. Also, the world needs to have more of its own life. The wildlife works great on most maps, the human life....not so much.

3. Overabundance of padding content

As I mentioned, DAI has great maps. They're so impressive that it's fun just being there and walking around looking at things, and so the amount of collection and fetch quests doesn't really feel like a chore the first time through, and maybe even a second time. However, doing them is also not very interesting, and almost none of the collection quests has a significant story element, to say nothing of being connected to the main plot in any way. They feel mostly - yet again - completely isolated.
Now every rpg ever made has such things in different degrees, and I personally don't mind that they exist, as long as I can rationalize doing them. However, in DAI two things turned them into a very noticeable flaw: The absurd amount of them, and the impression that they existed to mask the fact that there was nothing really interesting on some maps, except for the maps and their features themselves.

So this is what the next DA game needs:
(1) More dynamic world content
(2) Better integration of the companions into the main story.
(3) Generally, do more with what you have - i.e. with characters and locations.

As I said, I see DAI as a new start, with the DA team almost going back to the roots and implementing stuff they've been good at in their early days on a higher level. Add the new engine, and the way there was bound to be a little bumpy, and there are a number of small annoyances that recall my experience of BG1 back in 1998, when I was frustrated about things like the low stacking limit of arrows (which was then doubled for BG2) and "unpause on entering inventory" to prevent players from changing their armor during a fight. As it was back then, so it is now: there is a great deal of room for improvement, but the basic design principle has a lot of potential, and the ingredients of DAI already are great. It is something the DA team can build on. They don't need to change anything fundamental the next time, and perhaps they've gained enough experience working on DAI that they can create more content efficiently.

 

Edit:

Also, get rid of the damned paraphrasing! it destroys roleplaying. Yeah, I know I've said it about a million times, but a post about significant improvements wouldn't be complete without mentioning it.


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#2
caradoc2000

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Every map also has its little plot, which works well in isolation, more or less, but doesn't really connect with the rest of the world. One example is the Exalted Plains. The plot plays out exactly the same regardless of whether you've been to the Winter Palace or not, and the token line you can add (can you? I don't even recall exactly) about the end of the civil war feels like what it is - a token, and doesn't change how playing the map feels in the slightest.

You can say the war has ended, but it doesn't change anything. This is one of my biggest gripes in DAI, your progress and choices don't really reflect in-game.


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#3
b10d1v

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Consider giving it another going over and maybe update a few things and send it to Mark directly.



#4
Rawgrim

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Combat and the level system is too dumbed down. Doesn't feel like an rpg at all anymore.


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#5
Grifter

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and the return to form?

 

2:


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#6
Fade-Touched-in-the-head

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Excellent post.

I particularly agree about the story not coming together. I was further disappointed to eventually realize that many of my "dramatic choices" throughout had almost zero impact on the narrative. The story clings to it's linear path like a stripper on a pole.

#7
papercut_ninja

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Combat and the level system is too dumbed down. Doesn't feel like an rpg at all anymore.

 

Indeed...

 

I believe that improving the combat mechanics would solve a lot of the other issues by interrupting all of that which comes off as fetchy or lifeless with something that grabs attention and focus. A fetch quest can be interesting, if the path there contains some tactical challenges.

 

Scripted combats and more tactical layers would make everything else look so much better imo.



#8
Ieldra

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Indeed...

 

I believe that improving the combat mechanics would solve a lot of the other issues by interrupting all of that which comes off as fetchy or lifeless with something that grabs attention and focus. A fetch quest can be interesting, if the path there contains some tactical challenges.

 

Scripted combats and more tactical layers would make everything else look so much better imo.

You mean, like DA2 added a fight every two minutes for no reason at all except that they thought there should be more fighting? Without a story to give it meaning, combat is as much of a chore as picking up stuff, and if there is a substantial story context, either can work on its own. Well, unless for you, combat as such - without a story context - is fun. For me, it is not, it's why I don't play MP. 


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#9
papercut_ninja

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You mean, like DA2 added a fight every two minutes for no reason at all except that they thought there should be more fighting? Without a story to give it meaning, combat is as much of a chore as picking up stuff, and if there is a substantial story context, either can work on its own. Well, unless for you, combat as such - without a story context - is fun. For me, it is not, it's why I don't play MP. 

 

I would like to emphasize the part where I said scripted combats...as in, somebody put some thought into how the combat should be played out and what challenges they might present, rather than just throwing a generic mob at you...



#10
Teligth

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As a result of this isolation, the world and the story don't come together. The maps are great, the characters are great, the story missions are great, but the whole package comes across as a collection of pieces rather than one complex work made of all these elements. The only thing that holds it together somewhat is the war table. 
 

 

Very true, I was an still am hesitant to hit up some areas, because I feel like the game will have me visit various locations as part of the main story line...however that might just have me miss critical game content. I felt like the Hinterlands, Sans the bottom half, was done right. We have a quest that introduces us to an area a few times and then we move on...however most other areas we have to visit just to build points up...it doesn't feel right and thinking back on it there is no real reason to touch places like the Storm Coast other than to grab Bull and kill a dragon.  It's so strange how the main story is disjointed from the rest of the areas.

 

I feel like DAO did it right. You had a few cities to visit, you had your main story areas and little side quests you could complete if you chose to. In DAI, I feel like I could easily miss these beautiful areas, especially when we just get missions plopped on the board that will take us to an instance of the area, but not really the locale itself. It's pretty disappointing. If your location doesn't serve to further the story than it's pretty pointless to be honest. I hate saying this, but I feel like they just added these areas so we might have different places to level up in on replays.



#11
TheOgre

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Indeed...

 

I believe that improving the combat mechanics would solve a lot of the other issues by interrupting all of that which comes off as fetchy or lifeless with something that grabs attention and focus. A fetch quest can be interesting, if the path there contains some tactical challenges.

 

Scripted combats and more tactical layers would make everything else look so much better imo.

 

Indeed.

and the return to form?

 

2:

 

Damn my feels for DAO :*( The random opportunities for mercy and brutality were amazing. I myself killed that fellow in the second video, because I did not want the urn to be so widely known..

 

I still maintain they could have done something similar in this game, it just felt forced to always be 'good' with my actions.


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#12
Ieldra

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I would like to emphasize the part where I said scripted combats...as in, somebody put some thought into how the combat should be played out and what challenges they might present, rather than just throwing a generic mob at you...

That, too, needs a story context. As in "who are these people and why are they after me"? Ideally, this would be a true encounter with some dialogue included, and possibly a way to resolve it without having to fight. So I maintain, combat alone is insufficient to make something interesting, regardless of how well-designed the actual fight turns out to be. If what I described is what you meant by "scripted combat", then we are in agreement.


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#13
Teligth

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and the return to form?

 

2:

All this talk makes me want to pick DAO back up.


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#14
TheOgre

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All this talk makes me want to pick DAO back up.

 

To me, DAO feels like that game I miss in its entire form. Even the tower part.. I just can't afford it at this time until I can start my job!

 

It's like a hype I had for new game that's already out..


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#15
Teligth

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To me, DAO feels like that game I miss in its entire form. Even the tower part.. I just can't afford it at this time until I can start my job!

 

It's like a hype I had for new game that's already out..

 

That's how you know when you have a good game. Hell I don't see why that didn't just keep most of the mechanics and just update it with a new engine and have play spoken dialogue. I can't stand this ME style tree where you don't end up saying what your choice was. Ya know? When I get a dialogue choice I expect it to be what's there, not a short summary of what i'm about to blather on about.


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#16
C0uncil0rTev0s

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@OP don't get me wrong, but I have a weird feeling about your post.

 

When I'm considering DAI as a story-driven rpg, ...

 

How is that even possible when the main plot isn't any immersive, main villain is not properly revealed even after the final battle, and the whole thing is utterly secondary to other Bioware games? No genuine writing, like, at all? Read here if you don't get my point, please.

 

It has many things that make up a good rpg experience

 

Then please define what the role-playing game experience is to you. Thing is that the character building in DA:I is next to cut out, and the roleplaying i.e. predefined story acting is unnesessary limited (even compared to the previous DA games). Same goes for customization. More points on the matter here.

 

So I say the SP is too much wronged, so it should be better to leave it as it is. Some occasional flowers to the plot grave should do fine, too.

MP, on the other hand, has a lot of potential that can save both SP and MP... If you put things right. Here, take a look.


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#17
Ieldra

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That's how you know when you have a good game. Hell I don't see why that didn't just keep most of the mechanics and just update it with a new engine and have play spoken dialogue. I can't stand this ME style tree where you don't end up saying what your choice was. Ya know? When I get a dialogue choice I expect it to be what's there, not a short summary of what i'm about to blather on about.

I couldn't agree more. Paraphrasing is evil and destroys roleplaying. I just didn't hit on that in my post because I've said it so many times that I'm afraid people would start to groan and not read anything else I said.


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#18
deatharmonic

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I agree,

 

I've put my fair share of hours into DAI, It was fun but I always felt ambivalent.

 

When I played DAO, even though each location was a zone with a defined path I still felt excited to see what lay ahead and I attribute that to the fact that each zone had its own story. Conversely with DAI, despite how much exploring you can do it wasn't the same, there wasn't that same level of story to draw me into the zone.

 

I know they glanced at Skyrim and took note of how Bethesda construct their open worlds but I think they should have looked closer to home. I think they should have taken inspiration from DAO, doing what they do best and filling each loaction with an immersive story. As things stand you travel to places like Emprise du lion, Emerald graves, Exalted plains to fight the enemy. Isn't that why I have emassed forces? To be the dogs body whilst I handle important issues? Essentially you could walk away from these places and not notice the difference it makes to the war effort. Give us something else, something interesting and unique to each zone which means we have to be there and give us a choice to have to make (a la wolves v elves, who rules orzammar etc).

 

I feel like a lack of story focus in each area makes all the 'busy work' quests much more noticeable, their presence is exacerbated and overall in my experience exploration becomes a slog.


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#19
TheOgre

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I couldn't agree more. Paraphrasing is evil and destroys roleplaying. I just didn't hit on that in my post because I've said it so many times that I'm afraid people would start to groan and not read anything else I said.

 

It's sort of why I liked the silent protagonist so much. When I choose an option and it's worded in such a way but said in a different way, it feels forced and wrong. Silent protagonists that select their choices, you don't get that double talk. They could just remedy that by having what they are about to say displayed. We the viewers shouldn't need our personal translator for what the voice actor is about to say.



#20
Ieldra

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@OP don't get me wrong, but I have a weird feeling about your post.

Yeah, I'm not surprised. I was seriously weirded-out by your threads, too, when i read them. Let's just say we're living in different worlds and leave it at that. 



#21
C0uncil0rTev0s

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Yeah, I'm not surprised. I was seriously weirded-out by your threads, too, when i read them. Let's just say we're living in different worlds and leave it at that. 

Well, that's a dissapointment for me. Simple denial isn't constructive.



#22
Ieldra

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Well, that's a dissapointment for me. Simple denial isn't constructive.

See? You interpret "I have a different opinion" as "denial" and expect me to enter a debate with you? Weird.


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#23
C0uncil0rTev0s

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See? You interpret "I have a different opinion" as "denial" and expect me to enter a debate with you? Weird.

I am not looking for a debate. I'd really appreciate if you explain your points I can't get. Points are cited and my doubts are put.

So, would you?



#24
Raoni Luna

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BG had stats and lots of classes not just 3.

BG2, the good one, had stats and even more classes and kits.

No they are not returning to form.

In Inquisition your character is your gear, you class is your weapon. Deffinetly not returning to form.


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#25
ThreeF

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The amount of classes in NWN was ridiculous and ended up being very pointless.


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