666 réponses à ce sujet

[Orian Tabris]

I didn't know that disagreeing with you about a fictional character = b!tching. Also, disapproving of a character, and providing reasons is not b!tching. Besides, you might note that it was a Sera fan who started the thread.

 

I would question why Sera fans feel compelled to post on a thread that is intended for people who do not care for Sera's character. Don't you have your own thread to discuss why you find her interesting? (If creating a so called "hate" thread is a whole other thing, isn't starting an "OMG love" thread also a whole other thing?)

 

Some people think Sera is a poorly written and weak character. Here, we are telling the original poster why. Do you honestly think that you're going to change anyone's mind here? I certainly will not waste my time on the Sera fan thread declaring why she sucks. People have their reasons why they like/dislike characters.  

 

B!tching = complaining, not disagreeing. And I never said the OP was complaining. Anyone who explains why they hate something/someone on the forums is complaining, usually. They probably just need to get it out.

 

Not a Sera fan per se, just a fan of all the companions. I'm not sure if you were saying I was, but whatever. I think Sera is a great character, because she -I think - fills the role Lukas Christjanson intended.

 

And no, I don't expect to change people's minds, because no one listens to me, unless it's to complain about/disregard what I say... with few exceptions of likes and the occasional agreeing quote.

 

I just don't get you people. Like how anyone could actually hate on a character, even one like Sera. I mean, it's not like the character is a real person, being put into fiction, as an acurate reflection on real life/them in real life. Other people are uptight, and that get's me uptight. That's the end of my position on this.

[KaiserShep]

I would question why Sera fans feel compelled to post on a thread that is intended for people who do not care for Sera's character. Don't you have your own thread to discuss why you find her interesting? (If creating a so called "hate" thread is a whole other thing, isn't starting an "OMG love" thread also a whole other thing?)

 

With the exception of forums that are typically extremely unwelcome of dissenting opinions, "dislike" threads are inevitably going to get both sides of the fence, regardless of the topic. It would be no different if someone posted a "I hate Star Trek" thread in Off-Lobby, and people who like it participate just as actively as people who don't.

[draken-heart]

I am not going to read 15 pages of "hate Sera". Will say this, I do not hate or like Sera, but that is probably because I see as she is, a character in a video game I am playing. Current Character is a Dalish mage who never really fit in with her clan, so finds Sera a welcome Distraction from the situation (As Sera says, the inquisition can't all be broody beards like Blackwall and Cassandra).

[Addai]

So, I'm pretty sure that none of the companions we've had in Dragon Age are sociopaths.  Vivienne genuinely cares for Bastien as well as the Inquisitor if you gain approval with her.

I can't believe that people actually believe this. The guy comes down with a mysterious disease that can't be cured magically, then conveniently dies just after she gives him a "potion"- from a beast we know can produce powerful poisons. Then afterward she preens about how his death secures her all his influence in the Council of Heralds. "And I couldn't have done it without you, Inquisitor." Yes, I'm sure you're pleased that you implicated me in your murder. And she probably bumped off the wife, too. I mean, does anyone not think this is how it went down? If so, are you paying attention to Orlais at all?

As to "hate" threads in general: I, for one, am not really settled as to why I dislike these characters, so I see discussing them with fans as a good way to get different perspectives in case I missed something. DAI is harder for me than DAO to roleplay different characters, so I'm also biased from having played and identified with Lavellan mage the most. Furthermore, as long as people are giving reasons and not being hostile towards other players, or spamming fan threads, I don't think anyone should be threatened by those that dislike a character. I find that you can learn from haters, too.

[ThreeF]

I can't believe that people actually believe this. The guy comes down with a mysterious disease that can't be cured magically, then conveniently dies just after she gives him a "potion"- from a beast we know can produce powerful poisons.

For all you know she wanted to put him out of his misery, he was suffering. Her taking advantage of the situation, doesn't mean she did not loved him, she could be just making good out of bad situation.  And even if this was some sort of evil complex plan and she only were using him, so what? I knew what I was getting myself into the moment I agreed to let her join. Josephine just confirmed it for me in Haven.

 

We will never learn her reasons and I'm fine with that. I love that Vivienne has her own agenda, it's a good change of pace. Sera and Vivienne are good change of pace.

[Seraphim24]

How is a song about how another person wrecked them emotionally... I mean, what?

 

That is not empathy. I'm probably going to regret this, but I'll look up the lyrics...

 

 

.....and yeah, you're still not understanding. That is not empathy. Empathy does not mean 'things that you feel or that make you feels'. Empathy is specific. 

 

'It has feelings' =! 'it is empathetic'.

 

No commentary on the point of issue here so.. I don't really know what else to add here. If you want to play dictionary there is a dictionary for that.

 

My point is/was/has been simply she makes people feel better, and to do that, she has to understand people. I'd call that high in empathy/emotional intelligence etc etc... whichever word you would use to describe that in 2014 makes no real difference to me.

 

I believe some people don't understand that what it takes to make someone feel better is not as simple as "I'm here for you, I'll do what you want, I am yours to control," and that is why I suppose some people hate Sera, because they don't understand.

 

And then some people probably hate her because of the farting noises and stuff and that I can understand somewhat better.

 

Honestly an even stranger way to put is that Sera is not contrarian. For example, reading this post I am 100% sure you (would) have a contrarian approach, there is no universe in the world in which you will reply "Oh yes! Interesting! I see your points completely!" Sera might, though.

 

In order to be liked character by the BSN or generally so on you have to be contrarian, somehow acceptance = stupidity or something, that's my other theory. The irony of course is being contrarian all the time (as many of the other DA characters are) just means in order to manipulate them you simply say the opposite of what you want to hear instead of what you want to hear.

[Addai]

For all you know she wanted to put him out of his misery, he was suffering. Her taking advantage of the situation, doesn't mean she did not loved him, she could be just making good out of bad situation.  And even if this was some sort of evil complex plan and she only were using him, so what? I knew what I was getting myself into the moment I agreed to let her join. Josephine just confirmed it for me in Haven.

 

We will never learn her reasons and I'm fine with that. I love that Vivienne has her own agenda, it's a good change of pace. Sera and Vivienne are good change of pace.

Well it's true that since this is Orlais, you can "care" about someone and yet murder them and their loved ones to advance yourself politically. Witness Briala and Celene. So I guess the question would be- if it's what your society expects and approves of, is it anti-social? I'll leave that question aside and say again that I simply don't want any part of it and I'm not going to be Vivienne's stooge for her political ambitions. If I actually wanted her to succeed, that might be different.

 

What disturbs me about Sera is that even her fans don't deny she's a child, and yet she's a romance option. Maybe it's because I'm not into anime, but sexualized children, or infantilized adults in sexual situations, creeps me out.

 

And yeah, I think Sera and Vivienne hit the same buttons for me, if in different ways. Not just the anti-mage/ apostate judginess, but one acts like a child and refuses to see the world any other way, and one treats my PC like a child and refuses to deal with her as a peer who can take a different opinion. I like adult conversation too much to put up with either for long.

[ThreeF]

 So I guess the question would be- if it's what your society expects and approves of, is it anti-social?

Oh yes, it's definitely sociopathic, the fact that they even call it "Game" underline the degenerate nature of nobility in Orlais.

 

 

I'll leave that question aside and say again that I simply don't want any part of it and I'm not going to be Vivienne's stooge for her political ambitions. If I actually wanted her to succeed, that might be different.

You can out maneuver her, from what I remember she will admit that she was not expecting you to beat her. Thing is you are dragged into this ugly side of politics either way in Winter Palace, if your goal there is to straighten  Orlais you either lose or are forced to take some questionable decisions.

 

 

What disturbs me about Sera is that even her fans don't deny she's a child, and yet she's a romance option. Maybe it's because I'm not into anime, but sexualized children, or infantilized adults in sexual situations, creeps me out.

I don't see Sera as a child, but I do find her being a romance option problematic to me for similar reasons that I find Alistair's romance problematic in DAO. You either have to level your  Inquisitor to the same level as Sera so you both be equal or it's a romance from the position of emotional power, if it's the latter it's a slippery slop for me.

[RVallant]

This analysis really says it all:

Oh good lord, are people incapable of being concise, it's just waffle, waffle, waffle, waffle. Get on with it man! 

[Addai]

You can out maneuver her, from what I remember she will admit that she was not expecting you to beat her. Thing is you are dragged into this ugly side of politics either way in Winter Palace, if your goal there is to straighten  Orlais you either lose or is forced to take some questionable decisions.

The question of who is emperor is more pressing than Vivienne's personal ambitions. I guess if you consider re-establishment of the Circles and templars as a priority, you'd be more willing to be drawn into her schemes for that sake.
 

I don't see Sera as a child, but I do find her being a romance option problematic to me for similar reasons that I find Alistair's romance problematic in DAO. You either have to level your  Inquisitor to the same level as Sera so you both be equal or it's a romance from the position of emotional power, if it's the latter it's a slipper slop for me.

I don't see Alistair as comparable. He's passive and romantically inexperienced, and has that emotional tantrum at the Landsmeet about Loghain, but Sera is many degrees more immature and stuck than he is.

[ThreeF]

The question of who is emperor is more pressing than Vivienne's personal ambitions. I guess if you consider re-establishment of the Circles and templars as a priority, you'd be more willing to be drawn into her schemes for that sake.

Precisely. Same goes if you want the Circles to be abolish,  you don't  want her running in the shadows, better keep her close.

 

 

 
I don't see Alistair as comparable. He's passive and romantically inexperienced, and has that emotional tantrum at the Landsmeet about Loghain, but Sera is many degrees more immature and stuck than he is.

 

Him being passive and a virgin has nothing to do with it. When you meet Alistair he needs a family, at the very least a friend not a lover, when you meet Sera she needs to learn to love herself, she needs a friend.

[Lebanese Dude]

 when you meet Sera she need to learn to love herself, she needs a friend.

 

So true

 

 

When you meet Alistair he need a family not a lover,

 

Well he wouldn't let me be his lover. Goddamnit BioWare...

[KaiserShep]

I can't believe that people actually believe this. The guy comes down with a mysterious disease that can't be cured magically, then conveniently dies just after she gives him a "potion"- from a beast we know can produce powerful poisons. Then afterward she preens about how his death secures her all his influence in the Council of Heralds. "And I couldn't have done it without you, Inquisitor." Yes, I'm sure you're pleased that you implicated me in your murder. And she probably bumped off the wife, too. I mean, does anyone not think this is how it went down? If so, are you paying attention to Orlais at all?

 

If Vivienne was looking to simply snuff out Bastien, why all the rigmarole of acquiring a specific organ from a specific creature? What's the difference if the plan was to kill him? You could probably just grab something from the apothecary and make a bowl of botulism or something. The man was already on his death bed. While teetering on the edge of death, did he suddenly become super immune to it? She could have done this on the down-low with just about anything with nary the wiser, least of all the Inquisitor. Any influence she'd gain in the process would be gained regardless of the Inquisitor's help, so why bother involving the Inquisitor at all? I just don't get how this master stroke is supposed to work, because it doesn't seem like manipulating the Inquisitor into feeling sympathetic really gains anything either.

 

What disturbs me about Sera is that even her fans don't deny she's a child, and yet she's a romance option. Maybe it's because I'm not into anime, but sexualized children, or infantilized adults in sexual situations, creeps me out.

 

Alright, this is getting to be a bit much.

 

No, she is not actually a child, and this isn't on par with loli or whatever you're thinking of. People can insist this all they want, but it won't be truer because of it. No one here can rightly determine that she lacks capacity insofar that she can't make personal decisions regarding sexual relationships. Being childish and being a child are two totally separate things. The whole Sera's-fans-are-creepsters angle is totally off-base. I imagine some of Sera's most staunch critics might have some words on this subject, so I'm just going to roll my eyes now and get it out of the way.

 

Anyway, regarding Alistair, what's really funny about this guy is that no matter what, if you don't give him what he wants, he will abandon you to whatever fate lies in store, and puts aside any concern over Riordan's insistence that every Grey Warden is needed. It's even better if you don't coddle his whiny ass during his companion quest, because then he'll just abandon all responsibilities altogether and just become a wandering drunk, with nary a care that the Grey Wardens could fail and the Blight could swallow Ferelden. It's even better when he fails to consider that you've been in the same boat with him since the very beginning, so it's not like you lack perspective.

[ThreeF]

Anyway, regarding Alistair, what's really funny about this guy is that no matter what, if you don't give him what he wants, he will abandon you to whatever fate lies in store, and puts aside any concern over Riordan's insistence that every Grey Warden is needed. It's even better if you don't coddle his whiny ass during his companion quest, because then he'll just abandon all responsibilities altogether and just become a wandering drunk, with nary a care that the Grey Wardens could fail and the Blight could swallow Ferelden. Good going buddy!

Alistair could end up being a complete fucktard in the game.

[Addai]

Him being passive and a virgin has nothing to do with it. When you meet Alistair he need a family, at the very least a friend not a lover, when you meet Sera she need to learn to love herself, she needs a friend.

I don't see Alistair to be nearly as damaged as Sera. For one thing, Alistair is actually capable of an adult relationship, either friendship or romance. Alistair can accept a person who's not exactly like him, and he doesn't see himself as the center of the universe.

[ThreeF]

I don't see Alistair to be nearly as damaged as Sera. For one thing, Alistair is actually capable of an adult relationship, either friendship or romance. Alistair can accept a person who's not exactly like him, and he doesn't see himself as the center of the universe.

You just like Alistair better than Sera and that's all that there is to it, it makes it easier to overlook Alistair's shortcomings and the implications they have for the romance.

 

(edit for clarity)

[JasonPogo]

It's simple.  Some people don't agree with how Sera views the world.  And the fact that she will not bend over backwards to change to their ideas bothers them.  It is scary to me the response to Sera. 

[Addai]

If Vivienne was looking to simply snuff out Bastien, why all the rigmarole of acquiring a specific organ from a specific creature? What's the difference if the plan was to kill him? You could probably just grab something from the apothecary and make a bowl of botulism or something. The man was already on his death bed. While teetering on the edge of death, did he suddenly become super immune to it? She could have done this on the low-down with just about anything with nary the wiser, least of all the Inquisitor. Any influence she'd gain in the process would be gained regardless of the Inquisitor's help, so why bother involving the Inquisitor at all? I just don't get how this master stroke is supposed to work, because it doesn't seem like manipulating the Inquisitor into feeling sympathetic really gains anything either.

But why do that when you can implicate the Inquisitor and acquire a high level scapegoat in case of things going wrong? Not to mention an opportunity to find out if the Inquisitor is moldable to her plans. He was on his deathbed, yes, but it isn't until he's dead that she gains his power- as she tells you herself.
 

Alright, this is getting to be a bit much.
 
No, she is not actually a child, and this isn't on par with loli or whatever you're thinking of. People can insist this all they want, but it won't be truer because of it.

If you say so.
 

Anyway, regarding Alistair, what's really funny about this guy is that no matter what, if you don't give him what he wants, he will abandon you to whatever fate lies in store, and puts aside any concern over Riordan's insistence that every Grey Warden is needed. It's even better if you don't coddle his whiny ass during his companion quest, because then he'll just abandon all responsibilities altogether and just become a wandering drunk, with nary a care that the Grey Wardens could fail and the Blight could swallow Ferelden. It's even better when he fails to consider that you've been in the same boat with him since the very beginning, so it's not like you lack perspective.

In that one instance, he does draw a line and it's arguable that he does so because he's in denial about what the Wardens really are. He's not anywhere near as immature as Sera, however, and he's not immovable- in fact, the hardening mechanic probably goes too far in allowing a companion to be influence-able.
 

You just like Alistair's flaws better than Sera's and that's all that there is to it.

I don't like Alistair's idealistic and immature tendencies, either. He is easier to be around, however, no doubt there. He's pretty easygoing in general.

It's simple.  Some people don't agree with how Sera views the world.  And the fact that she will not bend over backwards to change to their ideas bothers them.  It is scary to me the response to Sera.

What people criticize is that she doesn't develop at all, not just in deference to the PC. And since she's not even capable of seeing viewpoints other than her own outside a black/white dichotomy, she's not likely ever to do so.

[jlb524]

Him being passive and a virgin has nothing to do with it. When you meet Alistair he need a family, at the very least a friend not a lover, when you meet Sera she need to learn to love herself, she needs a friend.

Hmmm...they do have a bunch of similarities now that you mention it.

They were both young compared to other companions (Alistair was 20 in Origins and Sera is probably around that age in DAI). Both never knew their biological parents and were raised by others that made them feel like crap. They never had a close relationship of any kind with another (I'd say this is why Alistair latches onto Duncan pretty hard). Following that, both want to feel acceptance and develop close relationships with others (romantic or otherwise).

I don't think a romance with them is necessarily problematic but depends on the Warden/Inquisitor. Or I should say I don't feel they are more or less problematic than most other DA romances xd

[ThreeF]

Hmmm...they do have a bunch of similarities now that you mention it.

They were both young compared to other companions (Alistair was 20 in Origins and Sera is probably around that age in DAI). Both never knew their biological parents and were raised by others that made them feel like crap. They never had a close relationship of any kind with another (I'd say this is why Alistair latches onto Duncan pretty hard). Following that, both want to feel acceptance and develop close relationships with others (romantic or otherwise).

I don't think a romance with them is necessarily problematic but depends on the Warden/Inquisitor. Or I should say I don't feel they are more or less problematic than most other DA romances xd

 

That is most definitely true, we are mostly dealing with screwed up people.

[Forsythia77]

That is most definitely true, we are mostly dealing with screwed up people.

 

Living in a blight ravaged area where there is a war going on can screw up people.  I think  most everyone in this forum seems to be (relatively!!) well adjusted.  And we see these characters through our personal (well adjusted) lens.  And of course we implant our values onto the characters.  But we really can't do that because their values are theirs and ours grow and evolve. We can't influence computer code, despite how much we want Sera to change her mind about things.

 

Also, I did read though all 15 pages and this has been a really fascinating discussion.

[Raiil]

No commentary on the point of issue here so.. I don't really know what else to add here. If you want to play dictionary there is a dictionary for that.

 

My point is/was/has been simply she makes people feel better, and to do that, she has to understand people. I'd call that high in empathy/emotional intelligence etc etc... whichever word you would use to describe that in 2014 makes no real difference to me.

 

I believe some people don't understand that what it takes to make someone feel better is not as simple as "I'm here for you, I'll do what you want, I am yours to control," and that is why I suppose some people hate Sera, because they don't understand.

 

And then some people probably hate her because of the farting noises and stuff and that I can understand somewhat better.

 

Honestly an even stranger way to put is that Sera is not contrarian. For example, reading this post I am 100% sure you (would) have a contrarian approach, there is no universe in the world in which you will reply "Oh yes! Interesting! I see your points completely!" Sera might, though.

 

In order to be liked character by the BSN or generally so on you have to be contrarian, somehow acceptance = stupidity or something, that's my other theory. The irony of course is being contrarian all the time (as many of the other DA characters are) just means in order to manipulate them you simply say the opposite of what you want to hear instead of what you want to hear.

Uh, mutilating the definition of the word to make a character sound better doesn't magically make them follow the definition. You could say she's full of righteous zeal against crappy nobles, that's more or less inarguable, since she's not attacking, say, the King/Queen of Ferelden, who seem to be more or less decent, fair rulers. You could say she's committed to her beliefs and her cause, it'd be hard to argue about that. But saying that she cares about the feelings of people in particular is pretty damn hard to argue, given her rudeness, coarseness and refusal to bend.

 

If you like her, fair enough. But it's not ever going to be as simple as BUT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. You're painting everyone who doesn't like Sera as somehow being too unintelligent or the emotional equivalent of a five year old because they don't agree with you, and you're moving goalposts as to what makes a person empathetic to other people. It's possible to butt heads with literally every companion that you've got, for a variety of reasons. This thread in particular is about Sera, so people are talking about their reasonings for liking and disliking her. Agree or disagree, that's more than fair, but don't try to paint those of us who don't agree with you as toddlers who aren't ~*deep*~ enough to like the character or her motivations.

[KaiserShep]

But why do that when you can implicate the Inquisitor and acquire a high level scapegoat in case of things going wrong? Not to mention an opportunity to find out if the Inquisitor is moldable to her plans. He was on his deathbed, yes, but it isn't until he's dead that she gains his power- as she tells you herself.

 

I don't really get the logic of this theorized scheme. Time is basically on her side, since Bastien's in poor health and is pretty much knocking on death's door, and with his wife already gone (maybe she killed her too! ), it would basically mean that she's just taking the expedient path to a position that is most assuredly hers anyway. As for a scapegoat, I think too much credit is being given to Vivienne's ability to absolve herself of responsibility for whatever. It's not like she can turn around and say "The Inquisitor made me do it!". The Inquisition's political arm and spy group could destroy this uppity sorceress and reduce her to a Circle librarian. I think that Vivienne would probably prefer to bolster alliances with powerful allies, rather than risk losing everything for underhanded schemes. She strikes me as one who would prefer to win favor with schmoozing and wooing people to get under her influence to gain power. It does fit alongside her being a totally devout Andrastian that is a strict proponent of the Circle system, which is like the perfect mage as far as most common folk and nobility are concerned.

 

Anyway, she could just as well stifle the guy with a pillow. It's not like there's a CSI: Orlais. No one would know!

 

 

In that one instance, he does draw a line and it's arguable that he does so because he's in denial about what the Wardens really are. He's not anywhere near as immature as Sera, however, and he's not immovable- in fact, the hardening mechanic probably goes too far in allowing a companion to be influence-able.

 

I wasn't a big fan of the hardening/softening thing, but it does annoy me that no matter what you do, he will abandon you entirely to leave you to the battle, just because he can't handle the idea of Loghain being a Warden.

[Addai]

I don't really get the logic of this theorized scheme. Time is basically on her side, since Bastien's in poor health and is pretty much knocking on death's door, and with his wife already gone (maybe she killed her too! ), it would basically mean that she's just taking the expedient path to a position that is most assuredly hers anyway. As for a scapegoat, I think too much credit is being given to Vivienne's ability to absolve herself of responsibility for whatever. It's not like she can turn around and say "The Inquisitor made me do it!". The Inquisition's political arm and spy group could destroy this uppity sorceress and reduce her to a Circle librarian. I think that Vivienne would probably prefer to bolster alliances with powerful allies, rather than risk losing everything for underhanded schemes. She strikes me as one who would prefer to win favor with schmoozing and wooing people to get under her influence to gain power. It does fit alongside her being a totally devout Andrastian that is a strict proponent of the Circle system, which is like the perfect mage as far as most common folk and nobility are concerned.

Eh, what? If so, she certainly failed spectacularly when she was accusing my Inquisitor of allowing mages to run rampant, and rearranging her furniture just to ****** her off.

Possibly Bastien's power would be hers, but until he was dead, it wasn't certain. A time of chaos when all alliances are being shifted is also the best time to close the deal.

To me it's only logical if you look at how Orlais operates, and what sort of character Vivienne is, to think that she's running a game. And yes, I do think she probably killed Bastien's wife, too.

[Kimarous]

It's simple.  Some people don't agree with how Sera views the world.  And the fact that she will not bend over backwards to change to their ideas bothers them.  It is scary to me the response to Sera. 

 

Less "bothered by how she won't bend over backwards for us" so much as "annoyed that she expects us to bend over backwards for her." My non-governmental organization superpower isn't dedicated to "normalizing" the broken world for thieves and pranksters or helping them "play" - get over yourself, lady!