I don't think it's an exaggeration at all to say Sera and Vivianne are the worse modern companions BioWare has written. Unlikeable is one thing, boring is another, unlikeable and incredibly boring together is a very bad combination.
Not an exaggeration, but certainly debatable. Anders has got to be the worst for me. Templars this, Justice that. He's the one thing that Carver and my Hawke can agree on, if he was alive that is.
It's funny you mention Carver, because Carver is the one companion in the entire series I cannot stand at all. He spends half his time angry and jealous that Hawke is better than he is, and he broods about as hard as Fenris.
I hate her because she's acts like a child yet tells you to treat her like an adult in conversations.
Anders is at least active in the story. Vivianne and Sera's missions are both just...completely pointless. First time I played through Sera, she gets angry because I'm asking questions. Only conflict there is she's mad because she had to wait 10 seconds. Reloaded, and second time I let her kill him and there's no conflict whatsoever. She hates the meany noble, she kills the meany noble. What's the point? And what do I care about Vivianne's ancient fart of a lover?
Combine that with neither of them having compelling dialogue either at Skyhold or in party banter, Vivianne in particular...
Anders is at least active in the story. Vivianne and Sera's missions are both just...completely pointless. First time I played through Sera, she gets angry because I'm asking questions. Only conflict there is she's mad because she had to wait 10 seconds. Reloaded, and second time I let her kill him and there's no conflict whatsoever. She hates the meany noble, she kills the meany noble. What's the point? And what do I care about Vivianne's ancient fart of a lover?
Combine that with neither of them having compelling dialogue either at Skyhold or in party banter, Vivianne in particular...
I agree. Vivienne just annoys me so much that sometimes I just pair her up with Solas in my party so that Solas can eat her alive when she starts talking about magic. Vivienne starts giving Solas pointers and he just throws it back to her face. It's one of the better banters in the game.
It's funny you mention Carver, because Carver is the one companion in the entire series I cannot stand at all. He spends half his time angry and jealous that Hawke is better than he is, and he broods about as hard as Fenris.
It's funny you mention Carver, because Carver is the one companion in the entire series I cannot stand at all. He spends half his time angry and jealous that Hawke is better than he is, and he broods about as hard as Fenris.
At least Templar Carver gets some awesome character development. The realization that he always wanted to stand beside Hawke as an equal by going on his own path in life but not to go so far as having to fight Hawke was a memorable moment for his character. All that time putting up with his Act 1 attitude is worth it so long as you don't bring him into the Deep Roads.
I agree. Vivienne just annoys me so much that sometimes I just pair her up with Solas in my party so that Solas can eat her alive when she starts talking about magic. Vivienne starts giving Solas pointers and he just throws it back to her face. It's one of the better banters in the game.
I wish we didn't have to reply on banter for that sort of thing. It sounds fairly interesting, but I never heard it because I never really took two mages anywhere.
Always Youtube, I suppose.
I love Viv.
She's actually a fairly important point of view since she gives you the other side of Anders' story - she's a mage who understands how potentially devastating her powers are and also understands that not all mages are so devastatingly powerful, but that won't stop them for being feared by people like Sera because of how devastatingly powerful she is. Viv's argument throughout the story is basically we need external (non-mage) checks on the power of mages because people are legitimately terrified of what mages can do - which may not be a huge threat to Viv bc she's OP, but a weaker mage would be endangered by that fear. And she's a realist - she recognizes that you can't expect people not to be scared of what you can do because it is, in fact, scary ****. I think it's important to have that side of the story in addition to what we see in DA2 - it also rounds out the idea that not all mages are opposed to the Circles. She's not in favor of the abuses at Kirkwall etc either, but she's also pretty right when she points out that rebelling after one of "us" blows up an entire Chantry is proooobably not the smartest move if you're trying to prove people shouldn't be scared of mages and we shouldn't be locked up.
Also~ I think it's implied that she has an impact on the selection of the new Divine at the end of the game since she invites Bastien's sister who has influence over the elections to Skyhold to speak to you.
She's flawed of course and biased and limited in her perspective (as all people are) but she's still, at the same time, an extremely intelligent and practical woman who, if you have high approval with her, is quite a warm friend. Also she's fashionable and fabulous and she can make IB heel.
Really? I never saw her do anything 'extremely intelligent' or 'practical' at all. The only active content she really has is making the potion, which doesn't work.
The only thing that I hate about Sera - the extra content she gets, that other characters don't 
Her codex entry updates several times during the game, her romance a bit different depending on Inquisitor's race, she keeps a journal that has a lot of fun entries. Why don't all of the characters have something like that?! *sadface*
It's funny you mention Carver, because Carver is the one companion in the entire series I cannot stand at all. He spends half his time angry and jealous that Hawke is better than he is, and he broods about as hard as Fenris.
I use to hate Carver until he grew on me. Carver had legit reason to be angry and jealous, especially considering the fact that his father most likley did not spend enough quality time with him due to the fact that he had 2 other mage children to deal with. If Carver becomes a Templar he actually grows up and becomes a man.
You do not have to kiss his ass for him to defend you during the last straw in ACT 3. If you do not kiss Fenris behind he turns against you at the end... he will fight you in the gallows. That is his thanks to you for saving his ass from becoming a slave once again by a rapist tevinter magister.
Carver is 10x better a charecter than Fenris.
It's funny you mention Carver, because Carver is the one companion in the entire series I cannot stand at all. He spends half his time angry and jealous that Hawke is better than he is, and he broods about as hard as Fenris.
Until you make him a Grey Warden 
Anders is at least active in the story. Vivianne and Sera's missions are both just...completely pointless. First time I played through Sera, she gets angry because I'm asking questions. Only conflict there is she's mad because she had to wait 10 seconds. Reloaded, and second time I let her kill him and there's no conflict whatsoever. She hates the meany noble, she kills the meany noble. What's the point? And what do I care about Vivianne's ancient fart of a lover?
Combine that with neither of them having compelling dialogue either at Skyhold or in party banter, Vivianne in particular...
Not every companion has to active in the story and I'd argue Anders was poorly done in that aspect
You do not have to kiss his ass for him to defend you during the last straw in ACT 3. If you do not kiss Fenris behind he turns against you at the end... he will fight you in the gallows. That is his thanks to you for saving his ass from becoming a slave once again by a rapist tevinter magister.
Carver is 10x better a charecter than Fenris.
Except Fenris doesn't betray you. If you max out his rivalry - which is the exact opposite of kissing his ass - by the time Act III rolls around, Fenris is at a point where he both respects you enough to betray his own beliefs for you, and is aware enough of your beliefs to not be taken into shock.
So, you know, get to know him. Don't kiss his ass.
Or do, whatever floats your boat.
Really? I never saw her do anything 'extremely intelligent' or 'practical' at all. The only active content she really has is making the potion, which doesn't work.
Well if you talk to her she gives a lot of sound advice - at the Winter Palace, she is one of the few companions who has helpful observations - she tells you how many members of the Council of Heralds are present and advises you to speak to them as part of The Game. She will proactively seek you out to discuss the election of the next Divine and advocate Cassandra's platform and experience - and then invite Bastien's family to come so that the Inquisition can use his sister's influence over the Chantry to bolster Cassandra's candidacy.
Her conversations with Cassandra~
Cassandra: You're not from Orlais originally, Vivienne?
Vivienne: Neither are you, clearly.Cassandra: I ask because of your accent. I would have thought, once you joined the court...Vivienne: That which makes you different can be a burden or a source of strength, my dear. Which is up to you.Cassandra: I wish someone had told me that when I was younger.
Cassandra: Do you actually see me playing the game, Vivienne?Vivienne: Not now, perhaps, but you could.Cassandra: Wearing ball gowns and painted masks, decking myself in jewels and courtesying to suitors?Vivienne: It is a battle, my dear. The armor and the weapon differ, but just as much blood is spilled.Cassandra: I... never thought of it like that.Vivienne: You are a warrior, Cassandra. You be one whether you dress in steel or lace.
Cassandra: You would prefer to have the templars return to guarding the circles, Vivienne?Vivienne: Of course, my dear. They need better oversight, clearly, but one does not throw away a tool because it was misused.Cassandra: Few mages would ask for templars in the circle.Vivienne: Speak to Ferelden's first enchanter. You might be surprised. When abominations ravaged your tower, suddenly the world holds far too few templars.
Vivienne: I received a letter the other day, Dorian.
Dorian: Truly? It's nice to know you have friends.Vivienne: It was from an acquaintance in Tevinter expressing his shock at the disturbing rumors about your... relationship with the Inquisitor.Dorian: Rumors you were only too happy to verify, I assume.Vivienne: I informed him the only disturbing thing in evidence was his penmanship.Dorian: ...Oh. Thank you.Vivienne: I am not so quick to judge, darling. See that you give me no reason to feel otherwise.
Carver's a perfect example of companion character development with minimal input from the player. Just put him on a certain path (that doesn't kill him) and he molds his personality to the new conditions he's placed into on his own.
The order does matter, at least in fictional entertainment. A good person or rather, a character presented in the story from the beginning as a good person but grows progressively worse and more horrible (like Loghain) comes off as very repugnant. A bad person that grows progressively better by developing stronger morals and integrity comes off as very likeable and endearing. Its the anti-hero archetype. Lots of people find the bitter, world-weary anti-hero types to be more popular and endearing compared to "heroes" who have never done any wrong and are bit too idealistic with a hint of naivety.
And your exaggerating Thom Rainier's crime. He did not kill a family without a purpose, he did so for money. He did not know the nobleman he was hired to kill was accompanied by his family. He also did not personally kill the nobleman and his family, he ordered his men to do it. Rainier wasn't even present at the scene of the massacre. If anything, his men are more of monsters than him because they could have stopped themselves from killing any further after finishing off the nobleman. Rainier's sin wasn't the direct murder of the family, his sin was ordering it and then letting his men take the fall while he ran away like a coward. Yeah, this does not make Rainier/Blackwall any better but I do wish that you do not exaggerate the nature of the events of his past just to strengthen your argument.
I'm well aware that he's a base breaker in the fanbase. I do like to point out that even in-game, he is hated by quite a lot of people in Skyhold, at least based on his explanations (I would have preferred a cutscene showing the Skyhold people refusing to sit near him or soldiers refusing to train under him). He's lost his friendship with Cassandra, Cullen hates him but at least respects him, mocked by Vivienne and while still friends with Iron Bull, one banter (if the Chargers were sacrificed) has Blackwall calling Bull out for leaving the Chargers for dead only for Bull to point out how its different from "Rainier's" situation; Bull did not abandon the Chargers as he stayed and watch in horror at their demise, and Bull honoured their memory by giving them a funeral. Blackwall merely ending the banter with saying that he would never listen to Bull if he ordered Blackwall to hold down a hill.
Really though, I think its obvious that Blackwall was meant to have his fair share of haters, in-game and in real life just to drive home the theme that the path of redemption is an excruciatingly difficult path but in all honesty, if he was instantly redeemed and still liked by everyone, I would have definitely hated his character. The difference between him and Sera is that while Blackwall will be hated for his actions in the past, Sera will be hated for her attitude and the opinions she holds in the present.
The difference between Blackwall and Sera is the gravity of the violence. Sera throws buckets around, yes she pumped an arrow in a rotten noble, but on the whole, it's that these are different orders of magnitude. Again, I keep drawing the analogy to the Mannerites. Someone gets to kill a group of people because they did so first, rather than last, and were so polite afterwards? I don't care how many times this back and forth goes on, it will never make sense to me. I'm sure those dead family members care a ton.
And you are saying the order does matter, it obviously doesn't to me, do I not exist or something? Everyone's accountable for every action they take in their life, from birth onwards, at least, that's how I feel. That includes Blackwall being all nice afterwards or whatever, sure, but it doesn't matter any more or less than anyone else. In fact, I would go with the freedom option easily, every time. I get the point.
Guest_Donkson_*
The only thing that I hate about Sera - the extra content she gets, that other characters don't
The difference is that I'm not expecting, or even wishing that Sera would share my opinion, it's the manner in which she disagrees with it that I dislike about her character (and I suspect is the reason for many other people as well).
What it really comes down to is the interaction between two people, real or virtual, and how those people respond to each other. For me, I find it extremely off-putting when someone can't give me the respect of at least listening to what I have to say, instead of just immediately dismissing it and calling my thoughts stupid. It's completely fine that we disagree, life would be boring if everyone thought in the same way, but I'd much rather the person say to me "well, I don't agree, but let's agree to disagree" because that shows a much greater level of maturity, in my opinion, than just dismissing my ideas as stupid which is often what children do.
I also don't think that Sera matters less because of how she expresses herself, because like I said, I do find some of her conversations interesting, but it is hard to make the effort of finding those interesting conversations underneath all the fart noises and 'dangle-bags'. This is honestly probably why the people who think she 'matters less' feel that way about her. Not everyone is going to like how Sera expresses herself, and as a result won't want to deal with her antics to get to know her character better.
As for your points about Blackwall, I would agree that it is a very strange double standard (but then again, I'm not an overly big fan of Blackwall either, although I would rather talk to him than Sera.)
I would be repeating myself to say it's dangerous to value form so much over substance. The typical Bioware fan/player/developer is pretty obsessed with form. Substantively, actually, Dragon Age as a whole is pretty air dried, characters and so on scream at the top of their lungs, and those judgment scenes, so over the top and showcasing the characters or developers independence and zeal, and yet they are actually reliant on the player's input to decide the core acts. Sera sticks out in this sea of passivity, it's absolutely of no surprise whatsoever that people would find her problematic.
But you know speaking of exaggeration, she doesn't come across to me as this excessive loudmouth cartoon, she seems pretty funny and biting, not just like dumb cartoon silly, in conversation and all that.
In fact, I can turn this around, why in the blue blazes don't more people criticize Isabella for her lack of attention to form or agreement to disagree? I really could not stand Isabella, she's the perfect grade A stereotype of a walking in your face personality. How the frik don't people dislike her for her in-eloquence. She doesn't make the fart sounds but I'd say she's actually considerably less attentive to form than Sera is overall.
I suspect the hatred of Sera may be more complicated. It's quite possibly she pays little heed to the form but is kind of obstinate about it. Someone like Isabella seems more easily manipulated so her unwillingness to address larger issues is considered more acceptable.
Except Fenris doesn't betray you. If you max out his rivalry - which is the exact opposite of kissing his ass - by the time Act III rolls around, Fenris is at a point where he both respects you enough to betray his own beliefs for you, and is aware enough of your beliefs to not be taken into shock.
So, you know, get to know him. Don't kiss his ass.
Or do, whatever floats your boat.
I didn't get that experience with him. Each and every playthrough he betrays me, and then attacks me at the end. I guess I didn't have maximum rivalry on him. I just get tired of it, and even feel like restarting to previously saved game just to give him back to his slave master so he doesn't cause me grief later on in the game.
I personally found her extremely irritating for the most part. I thought it was an interesting notion to introduce an andrastian city elf who is racist about elves. She came across to me as completely ignorant and the problem for me is that worse still seemed to take pride in being completely ignorant. As a companion that was rather an issue for me. Think she could have done with a hardening/softening feature where you could influence her attitude to a degree, cementing her hatred of elvishness or opening her mind to the possibility that there's good with the bad.
As well as this major issue she's not a character i view as particularly funny or witty(unlike Varric). There was the odd funny line but for my taste she was often crass and unfunny.
Think next game i play i'll probably just not recruit her.
The only thing that I hate about Sera - the extra content she gets, that other characters don't
I never really thought about all that but it does add a lot to the character/romance.
Now I can't imagine doing another romance and not having all that....the horror.
Each to there own but people need to relax.
So I guess your idea of diversity is having the Chantry force them to recant, turn their leaders over to death or Tranquility or at best imprisonment, and live as second class citizens in slums with no access to economic advancement. Sera's idea of fair play too, obviously.If that were true then the Dalish wouldn't be homeless nomads right now.
"Do not be fooled by his charm, Inquisitor. He's Orlesian. That smile is his mask." -Briala about Gaspard, me about Vivienne. But I've already explained how I won't let my characters be her stooge. Also, we've gotten the pro-templar POV plenty of times. Maybe someone new to the DA franchise would find that novel but she adds nothing for me.She's flawed of course and biased and limited in her perspective (as all people are) but she's still, at the same time, an extremely intelligent and practical woman who, if you have high approval with her, is quite a warm friend. Also she's fashionable and fabulous and she can make IB heel.
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