48 réponses à ce sujet

[actionhero112]

 

 

 

 

You should have read the first line. My entire post was saying that, while Death Blow can output insane damage, it is less reliable than Twin Fangs.
 
In fact, the first portion of your reply you spent repeating exactly what I said. Come on, mate. Keep up here.
 
Now, regarding Death Blow's damage:
 
First strike of Death Blow does 200% weapon damage (300% with the upgrade). One of the hits of Twin Fangs, without it's upgrade, does more damage than this. However, the second strike of Death Blow does 200% plus 3% for every 1% of enemy health missing, which upgrades to 300% plus 6% for every 1% missing health. That is a theoretical maximum of 900% weapon damage.

 

This is irrelevant because not only is it useless in multiplayer, but the scenario in which it does get this damage bonus is pointless.

 

In fact I explained why this is, but I'll shorten it again for you. Because it only gets that damage at levels of health that it becomes irrelevant, it's not useful. 

You don't need a 900% damage steroid with 99% of that enemies health missing. I don't understand how this is a hard concept for you. You need that steroid when the enemy is at full health. That's why Twin Fangs is better. Because the whole point of a single target nuke is to one shot enemies, not 4 shot which you can already do with auto attacks on perilous.

 

Combined with the fact that it doesn't work with dance of death the majority of the time, drains all of your available stamina and leaves you vulnerable it's just not as good as twin fangs. 

 

Because the deathblow cannot be reliably used to one shot mooks at full health, it's worse than twin fangs fundamentally. 

 

The reason I replied to your post instead of just ignoring the reiteration of what I already said was because 1. You were wrong on your math (misinformation) 2. You suggested that an irrelevant situation should be used to decide whether you use deathblow or not.

 

The damage steroid you present is irrelevant. This fact seems to escape you. Because the damage steroid isn't needed. Because in that situation, the proper decision is to basic attack not to blow a cooldown and drain your stamina. 

 

Contrary to what you think, I don't consider deathblow to be bad. In fact Drasca's AoE point is quite valid and actually spurred me to reroll and try out deathblow again with near endgame weapons. But your point is not. 

[Drasca]

 My entire post was saying that, while Death Blow can output insane damage, it is less reliable than Twin Fangs. 

 

While there's hypothetical damage calculations here, I think reliability is more based upon whether TF or DB will actually hit due to positional issues rather than actual damage numbers. Both are usually fatal (for me), and I don't have Red Birth daggers.

[russ4ua16]

At least both of you have informed opinions. Can't stand when people come here with opinions based on the scoreboard and their one week playing.

[Drasca]

 True. I personally like Death Blow and Twin Fangs on my builds. Hell, I am pretty certain we have discussed this topic at length in the past.

 

Er, wait... shouldn't we be like debating something?

 

Yes. Caltrops, OR Spirit Mark. CHOOSE!

 

I'm actually more curious on the effect (or non effect) of the damage bonii of TF or DB vs combo detonations.... but I have insufficient data. The fact of in/out of stealth usage shouldn't be denied either, or the bonus of cull the herd, or flanking... or other damage bonii.

 

I much prefer real world empirical results than hypothetical calculations. My real world results with TF or DB = Lethal once you have decent gear and positioning. Non-lethal sucks. Attacking from behind on a moving target with TF = miss, while DB might hit. Attacking from the front with TF non-combo can be non-lethal, so why bother? So for me it is about finding out what kind of positional advantages both have, and what situations they're effective at.

[lpconfig]

POTA + Deathblow = Hijacked kill streak.

 

Also, when hitting multiple guys, I find that the number of crits (2 per target) you get allows "looked like it hurt" and the occasional "dance of death" to enable some quasi spamming of deathblow.

[Teophne]

I'm stumped. How is Hidden Blades not mentioned more often? For me it seems the best ever ability. Sure the cooldown is terribly long but it one shots just about anything and everything, also works from range to reach those flying wraith dudes and stuff.

 

My ability hotbar consists of Stealth, HB and Deathblow. Don't really use others that much. Stealth, HB the biggest threat, then proceed to DB everything else. With my party members having damaged other enemies enough I can spam DB constantly cause stamina Regan and cooldown on kill happens every hit.

[russ4ua16]

HB probably has not been mentioned because everyone assumes you have it. Since your job as an assassin is to one shot mobs at full health, DB is not as good as TF because DB needs a mob to be missing health to reach its potential. /end debate

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

At least both of you have informed opinions. Can't stand when people come here with opinions based on the scoreboard and they're one week playing.

 

I've been playing a week and F*** YOU YOU'RE WRONG!!!!

 

 

 

 

Please don't ban me...

[russ4ua16]

Nerf the Greek plz

Ugh just noticed my grammar error. I do know better! I blame auto correct. "their"

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Nerf the Greek plz

Ugh just noticed my grammar error. I do know better! I blame auto correct. "their"

 

I need no nerfing. I AM nerf.

 

[Drasca]

I find that Death Blow is a better clean-up skill, whereas Twin Fangs is a better initiator. Hitting an enemy from Stealth, especially if it's an archer shooting at the Legionnaire from a distance, is not likely to be running from you

 

I just wished Dance of Death worked, because I would say that 90% of the times I use Death Blow, something dies. The endless carnage ensuing from infinite Death Blow would be magnificent!

 

I generally agree, as I open with TF and finish with DB. Enemies are running away from me, I auto-attack. The tracking than whiffing on TF and potentially missing on DB. As for Archers shooting at legos, they can take it. . . and why are you behind Legos? I'm usually way ahead of them on the map (no matter the class). If you had my gear, builds and promotions, there's a fair chance you would be too.

 

According to the SP thread linked in my signature, DoD works, but both hits of DB cost 50 stamina each. Thus if you didn't have enough to finish them at the onset, you won't have enough to continue.

 

You have that Superb stamina amulet, don't you? I would probably use it in a DB build... if I had one.

[actionhero112]

 
My math was not wrong. It is tested and accurate, albeit a moot point, as from the start I suggested that the high damage of Death Blow was wasted because there are no enemies for which it would find any use. Seriously, did you even read any of it other than "Death Blow can theoretically do the most damage"? 

So did you forget that you wrote twin fangs was a 600% damage steroid or are you choosing to forget? Is that the moot point? That you were factually wrong? What an interesting precedent, you were wrong about the assassin. 

This isn't even a matter of interpretation, you just straight left 100% out. 

 

 

 
My entire original point was advising you that, while Twin Fangs is more reliable damage, it is technically inaccurate to say that Death Blow does less damage.
 

 

I am completely familiar with the fact that Twin Fangs is better damage than Deathblow. This is not new information to me. 

 

Your technicality will never happen in multiplayer. Do you understand this? Never. Therefore it's irrelevant. You're presenting a situation that isn't in this game. Your technicality does not exist. Enemies do not walk around with 99.6% of their health missing. And even if they did, deathblow would not be the correct decision to make.  

 

Deathblow cannot one shot the foes that Twin Fangs can. Twin Fangs can one shot all the foes that Deathblow can. You know what that means. Better damage, that's what that means. 

 

I try to base this discussion in reality, and give advice for relevant purposes. You base it in technicalities and can't be bothered to read tooltips. 

 

Really, what is the purpose of that scenario. Are you saying that people should choose deathblow to kill enemies with 99.6% of their health gone? What is the point of that technicality? 

[Drasca]

Deathblow cannot one shot the foes that Twin Fangs can. Twin Fangs can one shot all the foes that Deathblow can. You know what that means. Better damage, that's what that means.

 

Counterpoints:

TF cannot hit the targets DB can.

TF cannot AoE kill the enemies DB can.

 

Whether DB cannot OHKO damage targets TF can depends on other circumstances outside of the ability specific damages themselves. However, TF definitely cannot kill targets moving away from you, while DB can. You will miss, and blow your opportunity.

 

TF's ability is meaningless if you cannot hit your target due to how the animation and targetting works. You are forgetting this fact in your judgement of TF vs DB.

 

I cannot recommend TF in all situations because it is guaranteed to miss against a target moving away from you. I troll Venatori stalkers who use TF by taking moving forward.

 

Every one of both of your damage arguements do not take a whole picture damage calculation into effect, to include the limit of enemy health. I abbreviated my statement that you need both gear and build in order to OHKO.. but TF or DB tooltip damage alone? Useless compare without the rest of the passives, gear and conditional damage bonuses, for the final damage calculation. As stated earlier, I prefer empirical evidence. If either of you can provide screenshots (or video) of your gear, build and actual damage with TF + DB, that'd be useful. Otherwise, both your claims of 'which has better damage' are both meaningless as they are both incomplete calculations and without tested evidence. It might as well be unfounded hot air.

[actionhero112]

Counterpoints:

TF cannot hit the targets DB can.

TF cannot AoE kill the enemies DB can.

 

Whether DB cannot OHKO damage targets TF can depends on other circumstances outside of the ability specific damages themselves. However, TF definitely cannot kill targets moving away from you, while DB can. You will miss, and blow your opportunity.

 

TF's ability is meaningless if you cannot hit your target due to how the animation and targetting works. You are forgetting this fact in your judgement of TF vs DB.

 

I cannot recommend TF in all situations because it is guaranteed to miss against a target moving away from you. I troll Venatori stalkers who use TF by taking moving forward.

 

Every one of both of your damage arguements do not take a whole picture damage calculation into effect, to include the limit of enemy health. I abbreviated my statement that you need both gear and build in order to OHKO.. but TF or DB tooltip damage alone? Useless compare without the rest of the passives, gear and conditional damage bonuses, for the final damage calculation. As stated earlier, I prefer empirical evidence. If either of you can provide screenshots (or video) of your gear, build and actual damage with TF + DB, that'd be useful. Otherwise, both your claims of 'which has better damage' are both meaningless as they are both incomplete calculations and without tested evidence. It might as well be unfounded hot air.

 

I'm not going to dispute the counterpoints because you're right, In some scenarios, deathblow will have an easier time hitting and tracking then Twin Fangs. This isn't an immediate reflection on it's damage however, and I think it's a positional related issue. 

 

Again I put AoE as a factor to choose deathblow, so I admit it's a factor. These are not things I dispute. I am talking specifically about a single target situation though I suppose I should have specified. 

 

I have near end game gear on my assassin. I'm currently looking for a superior amulet of dexterity, a superior crit damage ring and an extra dagger of red birth. If these things make the difference and I'm able to one shot most mooks on perilous, I'll consider my stance on deathblow, though I'll still probably take twin fangs the majority of the time if the stamina cost isn't fixed and dance of death still won't work. Looking at the numbers I'm producing on the first hit however, I don't anticipate it. 

 

Still I can hardly recommend the ability over twin fangs when if getting the best gear is a requirement, but I can tell you I will use deathblow over twin fangs  personally if the bugs with the ability are fixed, and it can one shot most mooks on perilous. (Basically everything barring the brute enemy classes)

. 

[Drasca]

 getting the best gear is a requirement

 

Top gear (though not necessarily absolute best) is a requirement for Perilous dagger rogues. Threatening and below can get away with less, but... the whole class is so super gear dependent, it isn't even funny.

 

You either OHKO or... what, die? beg for barrier? The viability depends on kills. Except maybe FA builds. Even then though, it is super risky and without much return.

 

I'm currently looking for a superior amulet of dexterity, a superior crit damage ring and an extra dagger of red birth.

 

I have those accessories, and I don't have the daggers. My assassin is playable, but definitely does not have everything. I think I kitted her without HoK at all, so I could go all-out damage since she'll either kill or be killed with no realistic in-between as she's so squishy. Works well since I have both TF and DB, skipping FA. Bosses like VC tend to go down in less than 3 seconds if given the opportunity.

 

Oh, and I heard a rumour Lyrium potion works with stamina based classes. Need to try it out.

[Teophne]

HB probably has not been mentioned because everyone assumes you have it. Since your job as an assassin is to one shot mobs at full health, DB is not as good as TF because DB needs a mob to be missing health to reach its potential. /end debate

 

Why it hasn't been mentioned was more of a rhetorical question. When dealing with people, assuming the obvious is the worst thing to do. Someone always goes the other way and if everyone just assumes he learns nothing.

 

MY job as an Assassin is not to one shot full health enemies, I'm just the guy who kills stuff, with my way three of them while my other three deal with the enemy tank which I help finish later.

 

I don't know about others but someone stomping in on someone else's thread to call end debate after their own opinion sounds a bit rude. 

As we can see the debate didn't quite end.

[Petrikles]

I wouldn´t run without Death Blow, as it has specced no cooldown, and Dance of Death proccs for me at least often enough to keep enough stamina in order finish off most groups. I use Twing Fangs for full-hp mooks or when I need to cover some distance very quickly ("assassin´s charge").

 

Only reason against Death Blow is that it is most effective being used via a kill-stealer play style, which tends to upset ppl and especially reavers, who are in dire need of their heal-on-kill items to procc. However, it provides nice synergy with a tank, who catches the blow and starts to whittle down a small group, then the assassin closes in from the flank and kills all of them in quick succession.

 

Of course, Hidden Blades is a must for every built, this goes so much without saying that nobody bothers to mention it anymore.

 

One of the best experiences with an assassin clearly is when you are able to flank-attack and stack Hidden Blades, Twing Fang and Death Blow. It is possible to instant kill even on perilious difficulty the Arcane Horrors from the treasure rooms like this.

[The Allslayer]

Why it hasn't been mentioned was more of a rhetorical question. When dealing with people, assuming the obvious is the worst thing to do. Someone always goes the other way and if everyone just assumes he learns nothing.

 

MY job as an Assassin is not to one shot full health enemies, I'm just the guy who kills stuff, with my way three of them while my other three deal with the enemy tank which I help finish later.

 

I don't know about others but someone stomping in on someone else's thread to call end debate after their own opinion sounds a bit rude. 

As we can see the debate didn't quite end.

 

The OP mentions Hidden Blades in thier post so no need to tell them to take it when they already do.

[RuhRoh235]

People....lol... 

 

1) Hidden Blades is ridiculous...although I have played builds without it and instead opted for both TF and DB

2) DB is NOT Useless. However, its main function is against bosses only. It will demolish RTC and DC once they are at half health. I would argue that you are better off hitting TF over and over.. but I really like the insane damage it can do to bosses. You can throw in Giants and some of the other high hp beasties.

The biggest concern for perilous is choosing between DB and I was never here. I love my passives and when you select HB, DB, and I was never here, you dont really have enough points in passives. 

3) TF actually does hit... you just have to learn how to play it. When I first started playing TF.. I couldnt hit the broadside of a barn. Once you learn not to rush it, you hit almost 100% o f the time. TF hits for 10K (granted I have a higher WP and use red birth - 445 and wicked grace -405)

 

Petrikles said "One of the best experiences with an assassin clearly is when you are able to flank-attack and stack Hidden Blades, Twing Fang and Death Blow. It is possible to instant kill even on perilious difficulty the Arcane Horrors from the treasure rooms like this"

 

I imagine its effective but no idea how you are surviving perilous without Stealth.... (obviously youve got flank attack but that doesnt seem to be enough).

[russ4ua16]

Why it hasn't been mentioned was more of a rhetorical question. When dealing with people, assuming the obvious is the worst thing to do. Someone always goes the other way and if everyone just assumes he learns nothing.
For
MY job as an Assassin is not to one shot full health enemies, I'm just the guy who kills stuff, with my way three of them while my other three deal with the enemy tank which I help finish later.

I don't know about others but someone stomping in on someone else's thread to call end debate after their own opinion sounds a bit rude.
As we can see the debate didn't quite end.

The debate I was trying to end has nothing to do with the original post. He asked what people use in their fourth slot. The two page debate I was trying to end was over twin fangs vs death blow. That isn't a matter of opinion. It's fact.

[Petrikles]

Slip up of vocabulary. I run with Stealth, Death Blow, Twin Fangs, Hidden Blades. It is carnage time, but only in a proper team.
I meant flank attacking, as in, from behind. Something you need either stealth or some target dummy... ahm... heroic team mates for.