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[Pacman]

Hey everyone,

 

I have never played NWN2 and it was quite some time since I played any D&D. I decided to play through all the campaigns and I started with the OC. My favorite playstyle would be playing as an archer that can dish nice damage.

 

I was inspecting feats, skills and classes for quite some time now and figgured that the best route for my personal taste would be long bow based ranger/fighter combo.

 

Ranger seems to have nice passive bonuses that augment ranged fighting style extremely well and fighter gets many feats which I can use to further augment long bow combat in the direction that I want.

 

All that sounds good and well however I'm stuck at deciding what skills to pick and what perstige class (if any) to chose. I will play as Wood Elf with 12 INT so I will have quite a nice amount of skill points to spend. I wish to role play as someone who is witty and can bluff and tumble well, however neither ranger nor fighter has bluff or tumble as class skills. Inspecting further I found out that ShadowDancer has bluff (and tumble) as class skill(s) and prerequesites are hide, move silently and tumble. However I have some doubts about hide and move silently. ShadowDancer gives Hide in Plain Sight feat which seems to be extremely useful for anyone that uses stealth, however I wonder how useful is stealth for character that doesn't have sneak attack. Is it a worthwhile investment as a defensive mechanism or should I look for some other route?

 

TL;DR: I was thinking to pick a single level in ShadowDancer to have tumble and bluff as class skills for my ranger/fighter but I'm not sure if maxing Hide and Move Silently is a worthwhile investment for a character without a sneak attack.

 

I would be extremely grateful for any insight from more experienced players since I'm quite a newb here

 

Also, is track and survival any good ? Thanks!

[Arkalezth]

Hi, welcome.

 

Since you're playing an elf anyway, the class arcane archer (AA) is a no brainer. Both fighter and ranger work well as a base, but I wouldn't necessarily combine them together in this case. Either way, you'll need a level in wizard or sorcerer or two in bard to access AA.

 

Shadowdancer is good on archers in order to keep enemies away from you, but I wouldn't call it a necessity. If you don't care about stealth and skills are the main appeal of the class to you, I wouldn't bother, and just multiclass with something like bard or rogue. If you still decide to go with it, here's a basic build: http://nwn2db.com/build/?11771(You'll have to take a higher wisdom or buff it with items if you want ranger spells. They're pretty crappy so I usually don't even bother.)

 

Without SD, you could try something like ranger 21/bard 2/AA 7. Feats would be more or less the same, but without SD's requisites. Make sure that your charisma not lower than 12. Bard gives access to the skills you want in addition to AA. I don't see much point in adding fighter to the mix. Rogue 1/wizard 1 instead of bard 2 also works if you want locks and traps skills.

 

Favoured enemies could be humans, undead... I think fey are good for MotB. I don't know what else I'd take for the OCs.

 

Edit: Oh, and track/survival. Well, it's not a priority, but I like the ability to see enemies on the map, and rangers can be actively tracking all the time, so I tend to take it with them. You don't really need to max the skill, but I can't tell you how much you need exactly. I've had 10 survival show all enemies on a big map and more ranks miss some enemies in others. In any case, 10-15 (maybe 20 if you want to be sure and have a huge range) points should cover your needs, should you prefer to spend some points on a different skill. If you don't, I guess there's no harm in maxing it, but you may not notice a great difference.

[Pacman]

Hi, welcome.

 

Since you're playing an elf anyway, the class arcane archer (AA) is a no brainer. Both fighter and ranger work well as a base, but I wouldn't necessarily combine them together in this case. Either way, you'll need a level in wizard or sorcerer or two in bard to access AA.

 

Shadowdancer is good on archers in order to keep enemies away from you, but I wouldn't call it a necessity. If you don't care about stealth and skills are the main appeal of the class to you, I wouldn't bother, and just multiclass with something like bard or rogue. If you still decide to go with it, here's a basic build: http://nwn2db.com/build/?11771(You'll have to take a higher wisdom or buff it with items if you want ranger spells. They're pretty crappy so I usually don't even bother.)

 

Without SD, you could try something like ranger 21/bard 2/AA 7. Feats would be more or less the same, but without SD's requisites. Make sure that your charisma not lower than 12. Bard gives access to the skills you want in addition to AA. I don't see much point in adding fighter to the mix. Rogue 1/wizard 1 instead of bard 2 also works if you want locks and traps skills.

 

Favoured enemies could be humans, undead... I think fey are good for MotB. I don't know what else I'd take for the OCs.

 

Edit: Oh, and track/survival. Well, it's not a priority, but I like the ability to see enemies on the map, and rangers can be actively tracking all the time, so I tend to take it with them. You don't really need to max the skill, but I can't tell you how much you need exactly. I've had 10 survival show all enemies on a big map and more ranks miss some enemies in others. In any case, 10-15 (maybe 20 if you want to be sure and have a huge range) points should cover your needs, should you prefer to spend some points on a different skill. If you don't, I guess there's no harm in maxing it, but you may not notice a great difference.

 

Interesting thoughts. Thanks for the favored enemy tips, I'll keep that in mind.

 

The reason why I want to go fighter/ranger is because I want epic weapon focus/specialization for a longbow. It seems to give great benefits and quite big damage boost. Combining those with many-shot and multi-shot seems like a way to go for me, unless AA arrow enhance can outscale those bonuses. Also fighter gets a lot of bonus feats which I could spend on many defensive feats like Dodge, Mobility, Save boosts and etc. I wonder how damage and survivability would compare between AA and Fighter bonus feats.

 

The attribute distribution in your build is exactly how I planned it to be

 

I will start playing during weekend so I still have a lot of time to figure out the character I want to play as. Need to look into AA a little more. Thanks for suggestions!

[Arkalezth]

The reason why I want to go fighter/ranger is because I want epic weapon focus/specialization for a longbow. It seems to give great benefits and quite big damage boost.

Thing is, if you do that, you can't get Bane of Enemies (requires 21 ranger), and (at least with an elf) will get an experience penalty and slower levelling.

unless AA arrow enhance can outscale those bonuses.

It does. Not by a huge margin, admittedly, but it also comes sooner, requires less levels, there's no XP penalty, and you get a few extras, like fireball arrows and such.

Also fighter gets a lot of bonus feats which I could spend on many defensive feats like Dodge, Mobility, Save boosts and etc.

Those are filler feats that won't make a real difference; you can get eveeryting you need without fighter.

Either way, I'd take AA for sure, regardless of the other classes. Damage numbers aside, the main drawback of the fighter on a wood elf is the XP penalty. A fighter/AA is also viable, but in that case I'd play a moon elf, or half-elf if you want bard as the AA unlocker.

[Thorsson64]

Personally, if I was going for a damage archer, and not a sneaker, I would go something like F12/Bard8/AA10. You get damage from (Epic) Weapon Specialisation [6], Bard's Inspiration [2] and [5] from AA, plus Strength with a Mighty Bow. It all Manyshots and this will have a very nice AB, so most attacks will hit. In addition you'd have Mirror Image for defence, plus Bard gives access to several useful skills.

 

I did something like that a long time ago - if you don't want HiPS you get +1BAB and can use Dodge/Mobility for other Feats.

[Pacman]

It does. Not by a huge margin, admittedly, but it also comes sooner, requires less levels, there's no XP penalty, and you get a few extras, like fireball arrows and such.

 

EXP penalty only applies if level difference of the classes is too high and Wood Elf has Ranger as preferred class so it doesn't even come into calculations, or am I mistaken ?

[Arkalezth]

I wasn't too clear there. You're correct if those are the only classes. If you add a 3rd or a 4th one, though (likely AA and another class to unlock it), then there may be a penalty. Anyway, if you mix ranger with fighter, you'll be missing some of the best feats of one of them, so I'd just focus on one.

I agree that something like F12/B8/AA10 is good, but again, you'll have an XP penalty sooner or later unless you're a half-elf. Also, it's not a ranger, if that's a concern.

[Dann-J]

Don't waste your time playing a pansy elf, carrying a stick with a bit of string attached to it.

 

A halfling ranger specialising in slings will do more damage at higher levels, courtesy of some strength-enhancing equipment. Slings have an infinite 'mighty' property, so the higher your strength is the more damage you'll do - especially without a shield equipped, as you'll get 1.5x strength bonus damage added to them. Bows, on the other hand, have an upper limit on their 'mighty' capabilities, and never get the 1.5x strength bonus (regardless of what the character sheet says).

 

As a halfling, you'll get +1 to attack with a sling (or any thrown weapon), and an additional +1 to attack with all weapons (so that's +2 with a sling). Not to mention a constant +1 to your armour class. What do elves get? Low-light vision (yawn) and immunity to sleep (ditto, ironically). That's why there are more halfings in Faerun than elves - both in absolute numbers AND body mass.

 

A halfling ranger with a few rogue levels (their favoured class, thus avoiding any XP penalties) adds skill-monkey to the mix. Build up their 'use magic device' skill and they can use wands as well, making them a rock-slinging, skill-toting, spell-hurling nightmare.

[Pacman]

Don't waste your time playing a pansy elf, carrying a stick with a bit of string attached to it.

 

Hah! I actually play elves in all RPGs in the first playthrough, especially if they can be outcasts or vagabonds. I would like to play as Tiefling, but I really dislike the idea of slower leveling which is a major turn-off for me.

 

 

I agree that something like F12/B8/AA10 is good, but again, you'll have an XP penalty sooner or later unless you're a half-elf. Also, it's not a ranger, if that's a concern.

 

Well if I will multiclass two classes and one of them is my preferred one then I will not get an EXP penalty .

 

I think I will try the arcane archer you showed, with few alterations for my personal taste. Will see how that goes.

[Pacman]

Shadowdancer is good on archers in order to keep enemies away from you, but I wouldn't call it a necessity. If you don't care about stealth and skills are the main appeal of the class to you, I wouldn't bother, and just multiclass with something like bard or rogue. If you still decide to go with it, here's a basic build: http://nwn2db.com/build/?11771(You'll have to take a higher wisdom or buff it with items if you want ranger spells. They're pretty crappy so I usually don't even bother.)

 

I was messing around with your build, editing it to my liking and it seems like a better version than what I had in mind initially due to the fact that you can get more skill points this way than mixing Ranger with Fighter. That is the main selling point for me as I can take every skill I wish going for AA.

 

I also noticed that you do not pick "Expose Weakness" feat and rather take "Practiced Spellcaster". It seems to me that with such high DEX EW would be a great pick. Any reason why you did not take it?

[Arkalezth]

Expose Weakness doesn't work with ranged weapons.

Practiced Spellcaster is not really necessary, but should you use some level 1 wizard buffs, they'll last a bit longer with the feat. Those are more useful at low levels, though, so you could replace that feat by something else. I couldn't take it earlier on that build because of the PRCs' requisites.

Also, that build gets (and can use) One Shot twice, but to be honest, it's not such a great feat to begin with. You can take it or pass, up to you. You'll still get one use with 21 ranger levels, regardless.

If you want some more damage, you could replace some of those feats (and SD's prerequisites, if you finally skip the class) for some Improved Favoured Enemies. You'll need to spend a feat for each enemy, but that's an easy +5 damage.

[GCoyote]

Actually the F/B/AA combo should be very playable in the OC. You know you will be using the Silver Sword at some point and you have a number of social encounters that will benefit from the Bard levels. Get a good dusk wood bow and have some fun.

[Pacman]

Actually the F/B/AA combo should be very playable in the OC. You know you will be using the Silver Sword at some point and you have a number of social encounters that will benefit from the Bard levels. Get a good dusk wood bow and have some fun.

 

I already started the OC and I went for Ranger. I have made few changes to the Arkalezth's build to suit my playstyle but the core looks pretty much like he/she suggested. I'm nearing level 8 and I will be using ShadowDancer for Bluff skill and social interactions. So far everything looks good, just seems like I'm doing ******-poor damage compared to Khelgar. I guess I'm shooting more attacks due to multi-shot and many-shot and it just looks small in comparison to his heavy hits. I guess damage boost will come with AA.

[Dann-J]

I fooled around creating various halfling ranger sling combos last night (pure ranger, ranger/rogue, ranger/fighter). My favourite was the ranger/fighter. There were no hits to base attack bonus from taking rogue levels, and the extra fighter feats for the sling helped to bump up the damage potential. I ended up having feats to spare, so I took exotic weapon proficiency and gave him a katana as a backup. By level 10 (ranger 5 / fighter 5) his average damage with the katana was only one point higher than his average sling damage, which means that with Rapid Shot active he was doing more damage per round with the sling than the katana.

 

If I'd specialised in throwing axes instead of the sling he'd do even more damage with his ranged attacks, although Rapid Shot burns through a stack of 50 axes annoyingly fast. Plus the advantage of a launcher is that you can enchant it to do extra elemental damage and then use ammo with damage bonuses of its own (fire sling + ice bullets = both fire and cold damage).

 

 

So far everything looks good, just seems like I'm doing ******-poor damage compared to Khelgar. I guess I'm shooting more attacks due to multi-shot and many-shot and it just looks small in comparison to his heavy hits.

 

Enchanting a bow to do bonus elemental damage, and using ammo that adds additional damage on top of that, should improve things. Also, make sure you have enough of a strength bonus to make full use of the 'mighty' property on composite bows. Improved Rapid Shot is also highly desirable.

[Dann-J]

Has anyone put much thought into whether a pure fighter would make a better ranged combatant than a ranger? Off the top of my head...

 

PROS

 

Lots of feats available

You can take Rapid Shot and Improved Rapid Shot much earlier than a ranger would get them for free

You have access to the full range of weapon focus/specialisation feats

You can tank-up in heavy armour (many ranger feats require light or no armour to work)

 

CONS

 

You won't have access to the Favoured Enemy tree of feats

You miss out on some useful free ranger feats (woodland stride, evasion, camouflage, hide in plain sight)

You have to actually qualify for the combat style feats (which you usually will anyway with a ranged character)

Fewer skill points and class skills

No animal companion (a once-per-day meat shield at best, anyway)

[Arkalezth]

Nobody said ranger was better. In fact, if we were going for the best possible archer, the prize would go to some kind of arcane archer/assassin (because of Death Attack's cheesiness/synergy with Manyshot).

Anyway, a few things:
 

Lots of feats available

Yes, but when you factor in ranger's free archery feats, the fact that you can get every feat you need with either class, and that you're going to spend a number of them in advanced focus/spec, the difference isn't that great. Ranger needs a higher level investment to get everything, though, which may be an important detail.
 

You can take Rapid Shot and Improved Rapid Shot much earlier than a ranger would get them for free

The latter, yes (possible five levels earlier), but the latter is one level earlier at most.
 

You have access to the full range of weapon focus/specialisation feats

Most of which come in epic, while we're talking about level progression.
 

You can tank-up in heavy armour (many ranger feats require light or no armour to work)

Heavy isn't better than light (okay, maybe 1 AC if we're nitpicky) as long as your DEX is high enough, and if you're an archer, it'd better be.
 

You won't have access to the Favoured Enemy tree of feats

Which includes Bane, which is by itself a greater increase in damage than EWS (though not against every enemy type, of course). Just mentioning it for the sake of completeness.
 

No animal companion (a once-per-day meat shield at best, anyway)

Well, their usefulness depends on the animal type and your level. The dino may be useful all the way, but some of the others can also be pretty powerful for a while. Also, the "once per day" part is not exactly correct, as you can unsummon/re-summon them (at full health) an infinite number of times.

I'm not arguing that ranger is better, and by looking strictly at combat numbers, fighter might have a slight edge, but the difference isn't great (nearly non-existant before the mid epics) and, like you said, rangers get other things.

TL;DR: Play whatever the hell you want. Both classes are similar in power.

[I_Raps]

Has anyone put much thought into whether a pure fighter would make a better ranged combatant than a ranger? Off the top of my head...

 

PROS ...

 

 

 

 

You need one (with Weapon Specialization) in your party to get Favored of The Road in SOZ.

[Pacman]

Eh I got bored of archer already. I really like the game, but archer is too mundane for my taste. I don't really know what I was expecting actually.

 

Getting a good taste of game mechanics I can easily say that some sort of spell-rogue hybrid would probably be to my liking, however I really like Neeshka and I will have her around all the time, so I don't really need another rogue in the party. I will probably have to settle for spell-warrior with emphasis on 'warrior'. I dislike paladins and clerics so this is a tough one. Need to go read up about classes and such. So far Red Dragon Disciple looks very interesting, but it feels like it would work more as pure warrior.

 

I know its a bit off-topic, but I don't really want to make another thread, so anyone that wants to suggest me something is welcome to do so and I will be very grateful for any insight!

[Thorsson64]

Why not Bard? There are all sorts of sweet spots using RDD and maybe Fighter, e.g. Bard26/RDD4 or Bard18/F8/RDD4 and so on and so forth...

[Pacman]

Why not Bard? There are all sorts of sweet spots using RDD and maybe Fighter, e.g. Bard26/RDD4 or Bard18/F8/RDD4 and so on and so forth...

 

To be honest caster builds are a bit of mystery to me since I always end up playing as some type of assassin so I tend to focus on stealth and quick damage. I do not want to play an evil character so assassin is out of the picture and I do like Neeshka and she is more than enough rogues in the party . However I simply can't play bulky sword swingers.

 

I was looking at prestige classes and noticed Arcane Trickster. I think I will try Wizard/Rogue hybrid and see how it fares.

[Arkalezth]

Arcane tricksters can be trickier (no pun intended) to build than other classes and they're not exactly powerhouses, but they can be fun and versatile.

Alternatively, both bard and eldritch knight (with wizard or sorcerer as a base) make good warrior/caster hybrids. Bard has some useful and unique skills and party buffs, whereas EK has better spells. The chioce is up to you, but if I had to recommend one, it'd probably be bard.

Basic wizard/AT: http://nwn2db.com/build/?136008

Basic bard: http://nwn2db.com/build/?124983

Basic wizard/EK: http://nwn2db.com/build/?979

[Pacman]

Arcane tricksters can be trickier (no pun intended) to build than other classes and they're not exactly powerhouses, but they can be fun and versatile.

Alternatively, both bard and eldritch knight (with wizard or sorcerer as a base) make good warrior/caster hybrids. Bard has some useful and unique skills and party buffs, whereas EK has better spells. The chioce is up to you, but if I had to recommend one, it'd probably be bard.

Basic wizard/AT: http://nwn2db.com/build/?136008

Basic bard: http://nwn2db.com/build/?124983

Basic wizard/EK: http://nwn2db.com/build/?979

 

The bard one is hilarious but probably very effective.

 

I actually don't mind difficulty and I started off with Hardcore rules (VD is a bit too scary for a first playthrough). I want a build that I'm having fun with. It does not need to do most damage or be the most useful in the team fight - it must be fun to use . I will probably try making AT.

 

Looking at the build you suggested for AT it seems like a nice starting point, however I can see myself making many changes to it. May I ask what do you think of Spellcasting Prodigy feat? Also I'm not exactly sure how Necromancy comes into play here, I was thinking more about Transumation myself.

[I_Raps]

To be honest caster builds are a bit of mystery to me since I always end up playing as some type of assassin so I tend to focus on stealth and quick damage. I do not want to play an evil character so assassin is out of the picture and I do like Neeshka and she is more than enough rogues in the party . However I simply can't play bulky sword swingers.

 

I was looking at prestige classes and noticed Arcane Trickster. I think I will try Wizard/Rogue hybrid and see how it fares.

 

If you play on and carry your character into MOTB, your thieving skills will suddenly become very useful (the alternative is somewhat less reliable than Neeshka).

[Arkalezth]

May I ask what do you think of Spellcasting Prodigy feat?

It's a must have for dedicated casters. For hybrids, such as ATs, it's just a "nice to have, but not necessary" feat. In short, if you're going for max spell DC, you should try to maximise it (which includes Prodigy), but if you're playing a hybrid, chances are that your DC will be kinda crappy anyway, Prodigy or not.

Also I'm not exactly sure how Necromancy comes into play here, I was thinking more about Transumation myself.

The main thing you should consider when chosing your school (if any) at level 1 is what you lose (you won't gain any extra DC on a school or anything). Necro loses Divination, which isn't really a huge loss. Transmutation loses Conjuration, which has some useful spells you may not want to lose.

[Thorsson64]

I always seem to be the naysayer, but I really wouldn't recommend Arcane Trickster. Here's the problems with it that I see:

 

1. It's an inferior caster. The fact is that casting will still be its best option much of the time, but it just won't be so good at it as say, an ASoC.

2. It's poor at combat. Basically there's not room for many of the nice sneaker feats and it has few sneak dice. Zuton made the best of a bad job with that build.

3. The Campaigns are not nice to sneak attackers. Yes you can eventually get Epic Precision, but that's still only 50% damage.

4. Sneaking is hard in OC/MotB because you have idiot companions, even after all the AI improvements. It will require lots of micro management, which slows the game down a lot.

 

In addition the early levels will be a pain, but maybe if you like difficult then that's not a downside.

 

If I wanted Rogue skills I'd just take a splash and use Able Learner.