399 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr. Rush]

No, I think it is a high-level marketing/business decision to not have devs actively participating in the forums. I think it is a post-launch strategy to minimize rage and negativity. If the devs aren't visible, people are less likely to call them out and demand they be fired, etc, like what has happened with ME3 and DA2 launches in the recent past. 

 

So no, I expect we won't see much of the DAI devs active on the forums for a while, probably not until the next DLC announcement. 
 

With that said, I'm sure some of them are still reading the forums, even if they are not responding.

[Raiil]

I wouldn't blame them if they didn't, although I doubt that's the case.

 

They do communicate somewhat, at least through twitter. But honestly, I joined BSN between DA:O and DA2, was here for the epic poopstorm that was ME3's ending, and I'm not surprised they don't talk as much. There is a subsection of forumites who will fixate on one tiny detail and turn it into a 'you're basically Hitler' sort of accusations.

 

Do they listen? The writers do at least. Krem is a shining example of such. Are they necessarily going to communicate casually? At least on the DA side, I kind of feel like we lost that privilege after the Anders mess of DA2.

[Fast Jimmy]

But a conversation with who? There's no real way to hold a coherent open forum even if the response would be exclusively well thought out criticism.

I disagree. It's all about approach and consistency.

Having Mike Laidlaw or Gaider do the equivalent of a forum thread photo bomb will get nothing more than a riled up group of people and, while possibly a little constructive conversation, also a lot of wasted angst and name calling.

However, if there was more consistent, predictable and coordinated discussion, then it becomes less of a frenzied Zerg rush of posts and comments and, instead, a conversation.



For those who remembered my "Bioware, Let's Talk About..." threads, there was a purpose to those. I ran out of steam before getting through everything I wanted to do, but I wanted to end the series with a thread that talked about my threads. They were open-ended, full conversations about game design elements, how they could be used, what other games have done with them and what approaches were available to use. Then it got people's feedback about how such a mechanic might be used in a DA/Bioware game.

That's something Bioware should be doing - having open ended discussions about games. Not promising anything, not revealing details, not spilling secrets - just talking to people about what they might like and what hurdles that may present or what problems it may solve. If I was Community Manager, I'd be laying out such threads (whether they be gameplay mechanics, story/character discussions, Bioware news/updates/events, game industry topics, whatever) on a regular basis to get people's feedback and bring about healthy discussion. And I'd work to have various team members "on tap" for certain times, say once a month (and advertised in advance), like the AMA Reddit threads, but with a rotating cast of Bioware developers, both known and unknown.

There was a thread in Off-Topic that went on for years (carried on by Lukas for the most part until DA:I hit full swing) where he answered questions about being a long-time Bioware writer, such as where Minsc's character came from, what early story versions of ME1 looked like, what it was like to write for a licensed IP, etc. It's one of the better threads on this site and, sadly, hardly anyone knows about it because it was started by a forumite (Upsetting Shorts, I believe) and not by Bioware itself.



Bioware could make this forum not be "toxic" with just a little planning and effort and also not put a gun to certain developers to show up and "answer for their mistakes." But given the ghost town of leadership the forums have had over the years, the chances of that happening are slim to none. Which is a shame for a company that once prided itself on how interactive it was with its community. #twitterdoesntcount

[Fast Jimmy]

Very true. The only reason I started posting here was to discuss the ME3 endings, but I was quite a big fan before that. Posting on forums isn't a badge of being a hardcore fan, it's a sign of being a certain type of hardcore fan, and that's all.

Before gaming became mainstream, you followed an Internet forum of a developer to find out when the next game came out. I mean... it wasn't like any but the biggest video games had commercials back then.

[parico]

Most likely someone relays what's on the forums back to the devs .  As for them being on the forums In the past they were but that got ugly.   I suspect bioware has pulled them off here due to the toxic nature.  This forum was pretty out of control before the new mods and format came to be a few months ago.  I don't see them going back to that.   Besides that what would there be for a dev to say to people bashing there work anyway.  I'd rather they actually work on something than post here all the time. 

[Apollexander]

If you are thinking about the design of future games, I would say it is just too early. The next DA game may come in 2017 or 2018. Many, many things could change in 3 years. And I believe that the devs are aware of most of the designing issues because they are talented people. Trust me: if they are forced to sit here and listen to you complaining/suggesting, actually they will just pretend to listen because half of the suggestions are bullshit and most of the second half are infeasible.

[Fast Jimmy]

If you are thinking about the design of future games, I would say it is just too early. The next DA game may come in 2017 or 2018. Many, many things could change in 3 years. And I believe that the devs are aware of most of the designing issues because they are talented people. Trust me: if they are forced to sit here and listen to you complaining/suggesting, actually they will just pretend to listen because half of the suggestions are bullshit and most of the second half are infeasible.

We mere mortals shall humbly bow and await table scraps of information from our game developer masters. Please pardon our insolent insubordination, milords.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I disagree. It's all about approach and consistency.

Having Mike Laidlaw or Gaider do the equivalent of a forum thread photo bomb will get nothing more than a riled up group of people and, while possibly a little constructive conversation, also a lot of wasted angst and name calling.

However, if there was more consistent, predictable and coordinated discussion, then it becomes less of a frenzied Zerg rush of posts and comments and, instead, a conversation.



For those who remembered my "Bioware, Let's Talk About..." threads, there was a purpose to those. I ran out of steam before getting through everything I wanted to do, but I wanted to end the series with a thread that talked about my threads. They were open-ended, full conversations about game design elements, how they could be used, what other games have done with them and what approaches were available to use. Then it got people's feedback about how such a mechanic might be used in a DA/Bioware game.

That's something Bioware should be doing - having open ended discussions about games. Not promising anything, not revealing details, not spilling secrets - just talking to people about what they might like and what hurdles that may present or what problems it may solve. If I was Community Manager, I'd be laying out such threads (whether they be gameplay mechanics, story/character discussions, Bioware news/updates/events, game industry topics, whatever) on a regular basis to get people's feedback and bring about healthy discussion. And I'd work to have various team members "on tap" for certain times, say once a month (and advertised in advance), like the AMA Reddit threads, but with a rotating cast of Bioware developers, both known and unknown.

There was a thread in Off-Topic that went on for years (carried on by Lukas for the most part until DA:I hit full swing) where he answered questions about being a long-time Bioware writer, such as where Minsc's character came from, what early story versions of ME1 looked like, what it was like to write for a licensed IP, etc. It's one of the better threads on this site and, sadly, hardly anyone knows about it because it was started by a forumite (Upsetting Shorts, I believe) and not by Bioware itself.



Bioware could make this forum not be "toxic" with just a little planning and effort and also not put a gun to certain developers to show up and "answer for their mistakes." But given the ghost town of leadership the forums have had over the years, the chances of that happening are slim to none. Which is a shame for a company that once prided itself on how interactive it was with its community. #twitterdoesntcount

 

In theory that works, but I fear (and I'm pretty sure the PR folks at both EA and Bioware also fear) that such an activity will inevitably blow up in their face. Statements will become promises, showing early content will become ''Why isn't this in gaem biower 0/10'', ''we'll think about it'' will become ''they lied to us!!'' and so on and so forth. They could have a hundred good discussions, but as soon as something bad happens the thread will be flooded by people who demand answers to X event and then the downward spiral begins. There is a very, very good reason the majority of game devs these days communicate via mediums that are easier to police, like Twitter or their personal blogs, or in worst case only when backed up by PR people.  

 

I don't like it anymore than you do. But as someone who works in communications, I perfectly understand why they're doing it. Just look at how the threads on patches and PC concerns have become self-referential cesspits. I also remember that Blizzard used to post actively on their forums, but eventually the vitriol got so ridiculous only the community managers post once in a blue moon. You could probably find that trend in many other game forums. A major cause of that is that enough people these days treat forums not as places of discussions, but as a stand-in for customer service where they can vent their anger all day. This is not the kind of stuff you want your devs to focus on.

 

One thing I agree with is that I find the radio silence slightly weird. I don't expect Gaider or Laidlaw to post here once per hour, but considering how much of a success the game is critically and commercially, the team is still pretty quiet across the board I find.

[Fast Jimmy]

In theory that works, but I fear (and I'm pretty sure the PR folks at both EA and Bioware also fear) that such an activity will inevitably blow up in their face. Statements will become promises, showing early content will become ''Why isn't this in gaem biower 0/10'', ''we'll think about it'' will become ''they lied to us!!'' and so on and so forth. They could have a hundred good discussions, but as soon as something bad happens the thread will be flooded by people who demand answers to X event and then the downward spiral begins. There is a very, very good reason the majority of game devs these days communicate via mediums that are easier to police, like Twitter or their personal blogs, or in worst case only when backed up by PR people.

I don't like it anymore than you do. But as someone who works in communications, I perfectly understand why they're doing it. Just look at how the threads on patches and PC concerns have become self-referential cesspits. I also remember that Blizzard used to post actively on their forums, but eventually the vitriol got so ridiculous only the community managers post once in a blue moon. You could probably find that trend in many other game forums. A major cause of that is that enough people these days treat forums not as places of discussions, but as a stand-in for customer service where they can vent their anger all day. This is not the kind of stuff you want your devs to focus on.

One thing I agree with is that I find the radio silence slightly weird. I don't expect Gaider or Laidlaw to post here once per hour, but considering how much of a success the game is critically and commercially, the team is still pretty quiet across the board I find.

Bioware wants to promote, they don't want to discuss.

If you look at the Dragon Age Inquisition site, you'll see nearly daily updates about agents you can recruit or links to YouTube videos about why there are three dragons in one area or a notice that the new DA:I hoodie is out... if they can update that site and send Tweets about it, why can't they at least do the same superficial, fluff posting here? Let alone something more in depth?

Because they don't want to hear people. They just want to say things and be on their way. They don't want a conversation.

If you, instead, structure and make the forum a consistent, well-oiled communication machine, you can have real conversations. If Bioware put a fraction of the effort into these forums as they do their Twitter accounts, I guarantee you the "toxic" nature of this place would be drastically reduced in a few months, tops.

[Mathias]

Btw I resent the idea from a couple people on here that the people on the BSN who are complaining are just haters/trolls looking for attention. There are a ton of people on here who don't like the game or were disappointed by it, who have presented their case well. 

[Raiil]

Btw I resent the idea from a couple people on here that the people on the BSN who are complaining are just haters/trolls looking for attention. There are a ton of people on here who don't like the game or were disappointed by it, who have presented their case well. 

 

 

Very true, but a lot of legit criticism is buried under people who make mountains out of molehills or get abusive. They ruined it for everyone.

[wolfhowwl]

Yes.

 

BioWare's GM, Aaron Flynn, responded to concerns about ME4 following Inquisition's model too closely.

[AlanC9]

Bioware wants to promote, they don't want to discuss.

If you look at the Dragon Age Inquisition site, you'll see nearly daily updates about agents you can recruit or links to YouTube videos about why there are three dragons in one area or a notice that the new DA:I hoodie is out... if they can update that site and send Tweets about it, why can't they at least do the same superficial, fluff posting here? Let alone something more in depth?

Because they don't want to hear people. They just want to say things and be on their way. They don't want a conversation.

If you, instead, structure and make the forum a consistent, well-oiled communication machine, you can have real conversations. If Bioware put a fraction of the effort into these forums as they do their Twitter accounts, I guarantee you the "toxic" nature of this place would be drastically reduced in a few months, tops.

This is unrelated to the topic. Of course Bio wants to promote. It's a business, right? The promotional stuff would happen whether or not your proposal is adopted.

[Fast Jimmy]

Btw I resent the idea from a couple people on here that the people on the BSN who are complaining are just haters/trolls looking for attention. There are a ton of people on here who don't like the game or were disappointed by it, who have presented their case well.

The loyal defenders will always state the case that "Bioware has made the best game imaginable and every piece of criticism is just whining and just the voice of a vocal minority."

Until years after release when Bioware comes out and says "we know lots of our fans did not like X, Y or Z..." after which time, the defenders will say "See? Bioware has heard your whining and is fixing it in their next game. You all were complaining for nothing." And when a game comes out with a host of new issues, they say "you whiners! Bioware fixed everything you complained about and made the best game imaginable! Any criticism you have is whining and just the voice of a vocal minority."

Unless, of course, Bioware's new game did something they didn't like. Then they join the rest of us Toxic BSN Avengers and have the audacity to give criticism.



BSN. BSN never changes.

[Apollexander]

We mere mortals shall humbly bow and await table scraps of information from our game developer masters. Please pardon our insolent insubordination, milords.

Yeah just enjoy your role-playing if that makes you feel better.

[LinksOcarina]

And they didn't listen, but gave the people the finger with the refuse ending in the EC.

 

To be fair, I would to considering how most people were acting. 

[wolfhowwl]

And they didn't listen, but gave the people the finger with the refuse ending in the EC.

 

Some people did ask for more information on their choices and they got it.

[Fast Jimmy]

This is unrelated to the topic. Of course Bio wants to promote. It's a business, right? The promotional stuff would happen whether or not your proposal is adopted.

I'm not sure you read my full post. I was merely stating that Bioware doesn't make the effort to shamelessly self-promote here on the forums (though they do elsewhere). What hope does relevant discussion have if they don't even want to push clothing goods to their most hardcore fanbase on the forums?

[Fast Jimmy]

Yes.

BioWare's GM, Aaron Flynn, responded to concerns about ME4 following Inquisition's model too closely.

Do you mind linking that? I'd be curious to see that myself.

[wolfhowwl]

Do you mind linking that? I'd be curious to see that myself.

 

http://www.neogaf.co...&postcount=4698

[Fast Jimmy]

http://www.neogaf.co...&postcount=4698

Ah. I had thought you meant he had posted a response here.

But that's crazy. I mean... a Bioware employee? Posting on a Bioware forum? No, that's just plain bonkers. We should be on SA or NeoGaf's forums to see that.



Thank you for the link, though. That is appreciated.

[AlanC9]

And they didn't listen, but gave the people the finger with the refuse ending in the EC.

You probably should look at the pre-EC threads again. What actually happened is that a lot of people said that Shepard should be able to refuse the options available. (You could always have Shepard stand there and do nothing until the Crucible was blown up, but that's not quite the same thing as affirmatively Refusing.) This was hugely popular, naturally. As a matter of RP, the option should always have been present.

But Refuse leading to victory was highly controversial; those threads always degenerated into furious arguments. Some people liked the idea of a Refuse win, others thought it would make the game far worse. What Bio did was implement the popular part of the proposal but not the unpopular part. This strikes me as a reasonable response to the feedback.

Whether it was the correct response is another matter. You can make a case that adding Refuse added small gains for one group of players at the cost of large losses for another group. People who like EC Refuse weren't highly invested in Refuse, since they expected it to lead to disaster; it's a fun RP think if you want to destroy the universe this time around, but it's typically not going to be your favorite ending. But people who were highly invested in Refuse weren't likely to be pleased with the way it worked out. It's conceivable that this isn't an efficient outcome, and Bio should have left this part of the ending alone.

[AlanC9]

I'm not sure you read my full post. I was merely stating that Bioware doesn't make the effort to shamelessly self-promote here on the forums (though they do elsewhere). What hope does relevant discussion have if they don't even want to push clothing goods to their most hardcore fanbase on the forums?

Oh, I read that. I just misunderstood it. Everybody would hate it if they did that. I couldn't believe you actually meant that they'd be doing that here if they were interested in us.

[SofaJockey]

Yes.

 

BioWare's GM, Aaron Flynn, responded to concerns about ME4 following Inquisition's model too closely.

 

Complete tosh, please keep fantasy inside the game, all he said was they were different games.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Bioware wants to promote, they don't want to discuss.

If you look at the Dragon Age Inquisition site, you'll see nearly daily updates about agents you can recruit or links to YouTube videos about why there are three dragons in one area or a notice that the new DA:I hoodie is out... if they can update that site and send Tweets about it, why can't they at least do the same superficial, fluff posting here? Let alone something more in depth?

Because they don't want to hear people. They just want to say things and be on their way. They don't want a conversation.

If you, instead, structure and make the forum a consistent, well-oiled communication machine, you can have real conversations. If Bioware put a fraction of the effort into these forums as they do their Twitter accounts, I guarantee you the "toxic" nature of this place would be drastically reduced in a few months, tops.

 

Uh, yes? Promoting the game is what a studio should do. I don,t epxtect them to stop doing it, and besides the it's not the interns managing the Twitter account and official website who can discuss the game in depth.

 

I already told you why they don't start a dialog- it has a high chance of not working. Outside of indie devs, who have a more niche clientele (and even then, you hear lots of Kickstarter/Early Access horror stories), it is very rare for any dev to engage in a dialog post-release. Because it has a high chance of being hijacked, for good and bad reasons. 

 

I mean, can you cite me a large development studio that has successfully started this sort of post-release dialog recently? Not a rhetorical question I'm curious, because personally I haven't found any myself. On paper, everyone getting together and having a mature discussion sounds awesome. But far from everyone on the internet is capable of having a mature discussion, and BSN full both of overly enthusiastic fans and rabid fan-haters. 

 

Besides, unless they put a lot of time in such a dialog, the updates will be semi-regular at best, which won't really improve matters. The dev's job is to develop the game, not play twenty questions all day. They could be more communicative, certainly, but the level of communication you are seeking is not really possible nor preferable from my perspective.