399 réponses à ce sujet

[wolfhowwl]

Complete tosh, please keep fantasy inside the game, all he said was they were different games.

 

He responded to a conversation in a thread discussing concerns that ME4 would have filler like DA:I.

[LinksOcarina]

Bioware wants to promote, they don't want to discuss.

If you look at the Dragon Age Inquisition site, you'll see nearly daily updates about agents you can recruit or links to YouTube videos about why there are three dragons in one area or a notice that the new DA:I hoodie is out... if they can update that site and send Tweets about it, why can't they at least do the same superficial, fluff posting here? Let alone something more in depth?

Because they don't want to hear people. They just want to say things and be on their way. They don't want a conversation.

If you, instead, structure and make the forum a consistent, well-oiled communication machine, you can have real conversations. If Bioware put a fraction of the effort into these forums as they do their Twitter accounts, I guarantee you the "toxic" nature of this place would be drastically reduced in a few months, tops.

 

As idealistic as that is, is there an actual example of that anywhere, Jimmy?

[SofaJockey]

He responded to a conversation in a thread discussing concerns that ME4 would have filler like DA:I.

 

I've seen the thread. I struggle to see how that relates to this thread. Maybe I have misunderstood, that's possible.

[Fast Jimmy]

As idealistic as that is, is there an actual example of that anywhere, Jimmy?

In the video game industry? No. Video game developers are, despite their own view of themselves as socially connected and tech savvy, pretty inept at handling electronic media.

For other industries? Yes. I've seen company product forums go from being rated some of the worst in customer service due to no interaction or assistance to being vibrant online communities where people give relevant feedback and feel their concerns and questions are being taken seriously.



I think THAT'S the key. Giving people the feeling they are being taken seriously. Not just as someone pissing into the wind for no one to even notice, let alone respond to.

[Fast Jimmy]

Oh, I read that. I just misunderstood it. Everybody would hate it if they did that. I couldn't believe you actually meant that they'd be doing that here if they were interested in us.

It would be more substantial interaction than they've done in the past twelve months on here. As sad as that is.

[didjamom]

short answer is NO!

[Giantdeathrobot]

In the video game industry? No. Video game developers are, despite their own view of themselves as socially connected and tech savvy, pretty inept at handling electronic media.

For other industries? Yes. I've seen company product forums go from being rated some of the worst in customer service due to no interaction or assistance to being vibrant online communities where people give relevant feedback and feel their concerns and questions are being taken seriously.



I think THAT'S the key. Giving people the feeling they are being taken seriously. Not just as someone pissing into the wind for no one to even notice, let alone respond to.

 

Can you provide an example?

[AlanC9]

It would be more substantial interaction than they've done in the past twelve months on here. As sad as that is.

Sure. But I'd rather no interaction than sales interaction myself.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sure. But I'd rather no interaction than sales interaction myself.

That's fair. I'm just saying - the fact that they have a built in base of people who care about their company enough to visit it's forums more than once a month and it doesn't appear to even register to them that they might be a target audience to buy a new hoodie or see a new YouTube video about the game... that's how little they think about this forum. That's how scant it is on their horizon. That they could make easy money and increased exposure to projects (like YouTube videos) they put effort into and they just DON'T.

I'm not asking for gear or DLC adds on the borders of the forums - been there, done that. Just saying it is shockingly reveaIing that they post absolutely NOTHING here.

[Fast Jimmy]

Can you provide an example?

I'll provide a few.

American Express' EXPLORE forum
Best Buy's Unboxed forum
The revamped Google Help forums
Amazon's Daily Forum
Apple's Discussions Forum
Sprint's Space Community Forums


These are all examples of companies that either revamped, relaunched or changed focus for their online forums after poor customer experience and made them to be more responsive environments where problems could be discussed with improved support. None are perfect, but all are vastly improved over the service and community that preceded them.

[LPPrince]

I assure you, they're listening and taking feedback.

[Nefla]

If they're raking in the sales, and the game is critically acclaimed as well as being popular with new or casual players then it really doesn't matter what we on the BSN think either positive or negative.

[Fast Jimmy]

If they're raking in the sales, and the game is critically acclaimed as well as being popular with new or casual players then it really doesn't matter what we on the BSN think either positive or negative.

They went quiet long before DA:I was officially out, though. Aside from Allan, who went majorly dark after DA:I came out, very few devs were heard or seen on here. If the game had been an utter failure, I have little doubt the forums would be just as silent.

[Fast Jimmy]

I assure you, they're listening and taking feedback.

What feedback can be reliably gained without asking for clarification? That's my question.

It seems Bioware took the "I hated being stuck in one city and seeing the same environments" to mean "make the game as huge and open as possible, even if it results in very little cohesion between the areas, the story and 90% of the game's experience." That's very POOR feedback, even if it was gathered from feedback given on the forums (and elsewhere) about DA2.

Assuming you perfectly understand what people do or don't like in a vacuum just one sided statements is almost as arrogant as saying you don't need to listen to feedback at all.

[LPPrince]

What feedback can be reliably gained without asking for clarification? That's my question.

It seems Bioware took the "I hated being stuck in one city and seeing the same environments" to mean "make the game as huge and open as possible, even if it results in very little cohesion between the areas, the story and 90% of the game's experience." That's very POOR feedback, even if it was gathered from feedback given on the forums (and elsewhere) about DA2.

Assuming you perfectly understand what people do or don't like is almost as arrogant as saying you don't need to listen to feedback at all.

 

No one is implying they perfectly understand us;who's being arrogant about it? What Bioware has done, is doing, and will do is try their best to understand how certain people and groups of people feel about different aspects of their games(both literal and the hypothetical upcoming ones). That will influence their decision making.

 

Thats all anyone can hope for and as far as I know, all anyone with sense does hope for. Bioware aren't mind readers. They're people.

 

Also, we have to remember that we are only one portion of Bioware's fanbase. We can perfectly articulate what it is we want and hope for, and if they go a different direction, it doesn't mean they didn't perfectly understand us;it means they chose to do something else.

 

Bioware will never perfectly capture what it is everyone wants. And as far as understanding us goes, like most human interaction, the assumption should be made that something will get lost in translation-

 

Mind to key presses to eyes to mind.

[Nefla]

They went quiet long before DA:I was officially out, though. Aside from Allan, who went majorly dark after DA:I came out, very few devs were heard or seen on here. If the game had been an utter failure, I have little doubt the forums would be just as silent.

Either way, they have no reason to come here and see what we think or care about.

[CronoDragoon]

...you know the best way to avoid over-correction and misinterpretation of people's feedback?

Having a conversation instead of just having interns tally up posts or thread that mention one gameplay element over another.

 

I don't follow that logic at all. Whether someone is talking to BioWare or another poster, the feedback on this forum is clear. It doesn't magically change into different words. That BioWare overcorrects is not a misinterpretation on their part but simply taking feedback and deciding how they want to implement it, if at all. For example, the Mako. BioWare didn't remove the Mako because they thought that's what everyone was asking for: they removed it because it was the most efficient way to cut a part of the game that got a bad reception, that they weren't really invested in doing correctly, and moreover would not have fit Mass Effect 2's game design anyway.

 

Posters aren't interested in a conversation, either. Largely they want BioWare to acknowledge they were wrong or did X feature badly, and that the poster is right. That's not a conversation; it's dick-waving.

[Fast Jimmy]

No one is implying they perfectly understand us;who's being arrogant about it? What Bioware has done, is doing, and will do is try their best to understand how certain people and groups of people feel about different aspects of their games(both literal and the hypothetical upcoming ones). That will influence their decision making.

Thats all anyone can hope for and as far as I know, all anyone with sense does hope for. Bioware aren't mind readers. They're people.

But that's my point - without asking questions about why a certain part of the game didn't work, Bioware acts like mind readers. Even moreso when they create solutions without asking anyone if it fixes the problem at hand.

Also, we have to remember that we are only one portion of Bioware's fanbase. We can perfectly articulate what it is we want and hope for, and if they go a different direction, it doesn't mean they didn't perfectly understand us;it means they chose to do something else.

I'm not saying the BSN should be the ultimate voice of the people, but it is still worth having a dialogue. Assuming when two fans say "the story is boring" or two fans who say "the story is amazing" are meaning or talking about different things is absurd, regardless of if they are on BSN or the moon.

Bioware will never perfectly capture what it is everyone wants. And as far as understanding us goes, like most human interaction, the assumption should be made that something will get lost in translation-

Mind to key presses to eyes to mind.

This is kind of a cop out. Bioware can't know what every poster is thinking at any given time... so best to act like the forums don't exist and let the entire forum scream into an empty hole until the next game comes around? There is no effort on these boards to do anything other than gather people to either vent about issues or ask about future news - and Bioware providing zero guidance of assistance on either (except for information posted in the Twitter thread - an ultimate irony).

I get that the BSN isn't the only voice to listen to and I get no one can perfectly understand every single fan complaint... but half the reason fans behave in "toxic" ways is that they feel like kids in a classroom where the teacher never showed up.

[Fast Jimmy]

Either way, they have no reason to come here and see what we think or care about.

Other than basic business sense of "treating customers like human beings and realizing consumer feedback and dialogue exchange is immensely important," no, they don't have any reason.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Thank you, this guy gets what I'm saying.

 

I think we all "got" what you are saying.

 

There is a world of difference between a tech company answering issues that require technical assistance and a developer who is actively working on a game spending their free time addressing issues of criticism of the way the game was made when it is past the point where most of the game can be changed.

 

People looking for help with issues in the forum or the game? It is slow, but they typically do get a response.

 

People mad because Sera didn't represent their politics? People mad because there weren't cities? People mad because the story didn't go the way they wanted it to? It isn't as reasonable to expect the developers to be actively addressing each of these concerns.

 

They don't answer most of the praise, either.

 

I wish there was constant developer interaction in these forums. I think it would be a good thing. I also wish people didn't use these forums to micro-manage their individual grievances with how the game failed to meet their exacting specifications. I think that would also be a good thing.

 

But it is neither realistic nor reasonable to expect either of those things. And as long as there are literally dozens of threads a day demanding "answers" for why individuals A through M didn't get what they wanted while individuals N through Z did, no developer can be reasonably expected to sort through it all to address everyone's individual concerns.

 

I have criticisms too, and I share them. But I don't expect a personal answer from the developers over them. They have avenues for that. There are dozens of them, and thousands of us. Expecting them to micro-manage our individual criticisms is just asking for disappointment.

 

That doesn't mean they are ignoring the feedback. It just means that they're not going to take the time to sort through it all personally and answer it all. It is not reasonable to ask to them to.

[LPPrince]

I get that the BSN isn't the only voice to listen to and I get no one can perfectly understand every single fan complaint... but half the reason fans behave in "toxic" ways is that they feel like kids in a classroom where the teacher never showed up.

 

That seems more like taking Bioware for granted;they show up here WAAAY more than they have to. At least the DA team does. Even the ME team to a lesser extent.

 

Right now I've got issues with Telltale having issues with their latest episode of GoT on Xbox One, and while they're cooperating on their forums, it is VERY little compared to what Bioware would do.

 

If anything, Bioware is the teacher that listens to their students a little too much. Or perhaps gets the wrong idea from said students every now and again. But no one can say they never showed up.

 

They're here right now. /not always signed in

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Other than basic business sense of "treating customers like human beings and realizing consumer feedback and dialogue exchange is immensely important," no, they don't have any reason.

 

They have tens of thousands of customers. The developers can't reasonably be expected to address the individual criticisms of all of them. There aren't enough of them to even do that. It would be a full-time job for them to do so.

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't follow that logic at all. Whether someone is talking to BioWare or another poster, the feedback on this forum is clear. It doesn't magically change into different words. That BioWare overcorrects is not a misinterpretation on their part but simply taking feedback and deciding how they want to implement it, if at all. For example, the Mako. BioWare didn't remove the Mako because they thought that's what everyone was asking for: they removed it because it was the most efficient way to cut a part of the game that got a bad reception, that they weren't really invested in doing correctly, and moreover would not have fit Mass Effect 2's game design anyway.

Posters aren't interested in a conversation, either. Largely they want BioWare to acknowledge they were wrong or did X feature badly, and that the poster is right. That's not a conversation; it's dick-waving.

The reason that people behave that way is that it's like seeing Bigfoot to see someone with "Bioware" above their screen name around here. People feel like hey need to get their potshots in before they disappear under the waves, never to resurface again.

Again - it's all about consistency and delivery. Scheduling time. Structuring discussions. Having dialogues. That only happens when someone is doing coordination, not when a dev randomly has an itch to hop on the forum and address a random question in a thread where everyone then begins dogpiling insanely. That's how craziness and cruelty happen. If you treat people like adults and not deign to mingle with the commoners on a whim without any structure or focus, then yeah - people are going to knee-jerk react and cause problems.


That's a problem of organization, not of the BSN in general. The entire forum is like a kid that's been locked in a closet for too long.

[Fast Jimmy]

That seems more like taking Bioware for granted;they show up here WAAAY more than they have to. At least the DA team does. Even the ME team to a lesser extent.

Right now I've got issues with Telltale having issues with their latest episode of GoT on Xbox One, and while they're cooperating on their forums, it is VERY little compared to what Bioware would do.

If anything, Bioware is the teacher that listens to their students a little too much. Or perhaps gets the wrong idea from said students every now and again. But no one can say they never showed up.

They're here right now. /not always signed in

What makes you say this? I don't doubt there are some Bioware lurkers going on at frequent times, but what actions and statements arr Bioware making on here recently that has their presence known? Other than a blip about announcing the hotfix patch and creating the Lore subforum, what interaction does Bioware have that indictes they fit the analogy of teachers talking to their students?