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[Boost32]

"Fiona, dear, your dementia is showing" 

Vivienne is the best!

[thesuperdarkone2]

I have been debating which side to choose for my female Dalish mage. One the one hand, why would a Dalish elf go for the Templars? On the other hand, the rebel mages are not really her people, so helping them with their problem at all. On the other hand, the time magic is an issue, that should be dealt with. On the other hand, the Templars are respected by people, like the Wardens (supposedly).

 

Gah, my head hurts.

Well if you aren't metagaming, you should side with the mages. For starters, Fiona politely invites you to Redcliffe to discuss an alliance whereas the templars essentially told you **** off and Lucius outright said that the templars who joined the Inquisition are traitors simply for following a mage with the other templars supporting Lucius. Would a mage really feel safe going to a group of people who are fighting mages and whose leader essentially said that he hates mages with most of his fellow templars apparently supporting this?

 

Second, you find out that the mages are indentured to Tevinter. You later find out that Alexius is trying to use time magic to undue your victory and used time magic to steal the mages from you. Plus, the mages have children with them so if you care about that, you are saving innocent people and children by siding with the mages. Plus, saving the mages would likely make them grateful to you and thus more likely to have them help you. Don't forget how during the briefing for the mage mission you can find out that the Venatori are essentially mobilizing for war. Meanwhile, there is no indication that there is anything wrong going on with the Templars so you have don't think they are in danger. On the other hand, siding with the mages means you are removing a hostile foreign power from your doorstep that is trying to use magic to try and undue your victory and is mobilizing for war. If you were the Inquisitor, would you really ignore all of this just to get the templars? Your advisors essentially say they hope not all Templars are douchebags like Lucius so you are not even certain the templars would even help you. Siding with the mages both removes a hostile power from your doorstep and earns you the gratitude of the mages. Plus, if you don't agree with what Fiona did you can easily conscript them. Siding with the mages does not necessarily mean you have to support the mages.

[MisterJB]

What would Templar supporters do if mage freedom wound up proving that their pessimism was just wrong? I think the fact that mage freedom won't lead to Tevinter 2.0 or abomination central with mages being accepted by the public pretty much destroys the main points of pro-templar supporters.

You don't seem to get it.

Dragon Age is written by people. People with biases, who aren't perfect, whose work is cumbered by the game engine and limitations.

What this means is that Pro-Mage endings are not empirical evidence which means that they, by themselves, don't prove anything. We can dismiss it as unrealistic at any point and what you can do; or at least should; is attempt to explain why it is not. 

Simply pointing out to a situation where there is a pro-mage occurrence is ineffective as an argument when your opponent, us, have no intentions of accepting it as valid without something, anything, backing it up that we can accept as realistic.

[thesuperdarkone2]

You don't seem to get it.

Dragon Age is written by people. People with biases, who aren't perfect, whose work is cumbered by the game engine and limitations.

What this means is that Pro-Mage endings are not empirical evidence which means that they, by themselves, don't prove anything. We can dismiss it as unrealistic at any point and what you can do; or at least should; is attempt to explain why it is not. 

Simply pointing out to a situation where there is a pro-mage occurrence is ineffective as an argument when your opponent, us, have no intentions of accepting it as valid without something, anything, backing it up that we can accept as realistic.

And if evidence later comes up that does in fact show that mage freedom doesn't result in any of the negative things pro-templars think will occur? Also, what do you mean by the bias argument? Are you implying that the devs are wrong for possibly being biased towards mages? Are you saying that the devs should make more pro-templar arguments?

[Steelcan]

And if evidence later comes up that does in fact show that mage freedom doesn't result in any of the negative things pro-templars think will occur? Also, what do you mean by the bias argument? Are you implying that the devs are wrong for possibly being biased towards mages? Are you saying that the devs should make more pro-templar arguments?

a and what if the Leliana ending is completely different from the way you are thinking it will be?

There is no guarantee that it won't simply be ignored or retconned

[MisterJB]

And if evidence later comes up that does in fact show that mage freedom doesn't result in any of the negative things pro-templars think will occur? Also, what do you mean by the bias argument? Are you implying that the devs are wrong for possibly being biased towards mages? Are you saying that the devs should make more pro-templar arguments?

I mean that people have opinions and that can reflect on one's writing. But no one's opinions are inherently superior to other people's.

 

How can there be evidence in what is not, by its very nature, empirical evidence AKA Dragon Age's plot?

You'd consider a DLC where everyone is shown getting along as evidence but we wouldn't. Therefore, given that Dragon Age is a written work and thus subject to biases and opinions of human writers, "evidence" presented can only be considered as such if accepted by reader due to Thedas not existing. And since the mentalities of pro-mages and pro-Templars are so mutually exclusive, the presentation of evidence which is construed as such by one side will automatically deny it the quality of evidence in the eyes of the other side.

[Asdrubael Vect]

And if I was forced to choose either the Geth or Quarians in 3? I would have chosen the Quarians, because despite ME3s constant white-washing of the Geth, I believed that the Geth were far bigger ****-ups than the Quarians and were more to blame.

 

You do not need to believe in war machines who do a genocide of 99% of quarian population "for their protection" and only 3 milions civilians can save themselfs and leave quarian system

 

Saving those machine bastards who is the same as reapers and have the same beliefs and actually worship them, wanted to be like them and work for them is not making sense and they do not deserve this, giving them reapers tech what they desire was a clear madness and was not fit with reaper destruction mission

 

Geth with their Legion do a good propoganda job about geth innocent, for 3 hundred years they never do a single attemt for any "we are good machines" but than 1 of their gods with geth fleet was defeated they was scared=)

[dragonflight288]

Haven't read every page yet, but I wanted to comment on something that repeatedly gets brought up.

 

People are talking about how the Dark Ritual seems to have no negative consequences. Although this is true, I'm not holding my breath that it remains so, because we don't know what the destiny Morrigan and Flemeth meant for Kieran is. But Flemeth steals that soul, and it seems later Solas does as well. 

 

We haven't actually seen the long-term consequences of that decision yet. 

[Dean_the_Young]

You don't seem to get it.

Dragon Age is written by people. People with biases, who aren't perfect, whose work is cumbered by the game engine and limitations.

What this means is that Pro-Mage endings are not empirical evidence which means that they, by themselves, don't prove anything. We can dismiss it as unrealistic at any point and what you can do; or at least should; is attempt to explain why it is not. 

Simply pointing out to a situation where there is a pro-mage occurrence is ineffective as an argument when your opponent, us, have no intentions of accepting it as valid without something, anything, backing it up that we can accept as realistic.

 

That's a bit wordier than what I considered saying: I'd call it bad/weak/poor writing, the existence of which is not in doubt and doesn't challenge the conclusion. Even if, for some odd reason, Bioware makes a decision for a major tone change and have an enduring utopian outcome for the Mage issue that makes the absolute Pro Mage route the bestest thing in Thedas ever, with no significant negative consequences of note for an objective observer...

 

...I'd still consider it poor writing. Just as I have other 'objectively best' routes in Bioware games. I find the Rannoch arc week and poorly written, even though peace is indisputably 'best' for everyone involved. I feel the Connor cop-out in DAO was bad writing, even though it was the 'best' resolution. I find the Krogan genophage cure slides of ME3 extended cut eyeroll worthy in how desperately they try to indicate that it is a Good Thing (complete with the cute Krogan baby nuclear family), even though the huge unanswered concerns of Krogan cultural reform and Wrex's political viability are never addressed.

 

The existence of these 'best' routes is not in question- so Bioware writing one for the Leliana resolves the mage issue with words and well-wishes doesn't challenge any accusation that it's a silly and implausible thing to take seriously.

[Addai]

I conscript the templars or ally with the mages, because the former is a military order whose command structure has broken down and the latter is a loose confederation of individuals who are looking for freedom, not another noose. A good commander knows how to get the best out of her people.

[AresKeith]

That's a bit wordier than what I considered saying: I'd call it bad/weak/poor writing, the existence of which is not in doubt and doesn't challenge the conclusion. Even if, for some odd reason, Bioware makes a decision for a major tone change and have an enduring utopian outcome for the Mage issue that makes the absolute Pro Mage route the bestest thing in Thedas ever, with no significant negative consequences of note for an objective observer...

 

...I'd still consider it poor writing. Just as I have other 'objectively best' routes in Bioware games. I find the Rannoch arc week and poorly written, even though peace is indisputably 'best' for everyone involved. I feel the Connor cop-out in DAO was bad writing, even though it was the 'best' resolution. I find the Krogan genophage cure slides of ME3 extended cut eyeroll worthy in how desperately they try to indicate that it is a Good Thing (complete with the cute Krogan baby nuclear family), even though the huge unanswered concerns of Krogan cultural reform and Wrex's political viability are never addressed.

 

The existence of these 'best' routes is not in question- so Bioware writing one for the Leliana resolves the mage issue with words and well-wishes doesn't challenge any accusation that it's a silly and implausible thing to take seriously.

 

On the Connor thing, I did like that the option appeared because you did the Circle mission first

 

But I felt that option should be locked if you didn't before hand even you do it while trying to save Connor it should still locked off because too much time past 

[Dean_the_Young]

On the Connor thing, I did like that the option appeared because you did the Circle mission first

 

But I felt that option should be locked if you didn't before hand even you do it while trying to save Connor it should still locked off because too much time past 

 

And then a desire demon abomination nukes the castle and runs off into the wilderness, with a major bad epilogue slide.

 

I'd approve... if I didn't know that nearly everyone would restart or metagame their way around it after the first playthrough.

[dragonflight288]

On the Connor thing, I did like that the option appeared because you did the Circle mission first

 

But I felt that option should be locked if you didn't before hand even you do it while trying to save Connor it should still locked off because too much time past 

 

Or if you hadn't done the Circle, have it severely impact your force numbers in the final battle. 

[MisterJB]

That krogan nuclear family was strange by itself. The same for Eve naming the first baby after Mordin.

I thought there were hundreds of krogans per birth.

[Dean_the_Young]

I conscript the templars or ally with the mages, because the former is a military order whose command structure has broken down and the latter is a loose confederation of individuals who are looking for freedom, not another noose. A good commander knows how to get the best out of her people.

 

Cool. Out of curiosity, what good commander did you talk to when coming up with that rationalization?

[Milan92]

Well if you aren't metagaming, you should side with the mages. For starters, Fiona politely invites you to Redcliffe to discuss an alliance whereas the templars essentially told you **** off and Lucius outright said that the templars who joined the Inquisition are traitors simply for following a mage with the other templars supporting Lucius. Would a mage really feel safe going to a group of people who are fighting mages and whose leader essentially said that he hates mages with most of his fellow templars apparently supporting this?

 

Second, you find out that the mages are indentured to Tevinter. You later find out that Alexius is trying to use time magic to undue your victory and used time magic to steal the mages from you. Plus, the mages have children with them so if you care about that, you are saving innocent people and children by siding with the mages. Plus, saving the mages would likely make them grateful to you and thus more likely to have them help you. Don't forget how during the briefing for the mage mission you can find out that the Venatori are essentially mobilizing for war. Meanwhile, there is no indication that there is anything wrong going on with the Templars so you have don't think they are in danger. On the other hand, siding with the mages means you are removing a hostile foreign power from your doorstep that is trying to use magic to try and undue your victory and is mobilizing for war. If you were the Inquisitor, would you really ignore all of this just to get the templars? Your advisors essentially say they hope not all Templars are douchebags like Lucius so you are not even certain the templars would even help you. Siding with the mages both removes a hostile power from your doorstep and earns you the gratitude of the mages. Plus, if you don't agree with what Fiona did you can easily conscript them. Siding with the mages does not necessarily mean you have to support the mages.

 

Not exactly. You can role-play a mage/warrior/rogue who disliked the rebellion and thought that mages should stay where they were. So saying that choosing the mages is the right choice is simply wrong.

 

You can also role-play a mage who disliked Fiona and won't choose the mages simply to annoy her.

 

Same goes for the templars.

 

No meta-gaming needed.

[AresKeith]

And then a desire demon abomination nukes the castle and runs off into the wilderness, with a major bad epilogue slide.

 

I'd approve... if I didn't know that nearly everyone would restart or metagame their way around it after the first playthrough.

 

People would do that regardless

 

Those who likes "perfect" playthoughs all the time will do it, whole those who do different runs wouldn't care

[MisterJB]

David Gaider himself has said that he hated the peace option in the quarian-Geth dilemma. One wonders how he feels about Leliana's ending.

[Dean_the_Young]

People would do that regardless

 

Those who likes "perfect" playthoughs all the time will do it, whole those who do different runs wouldn't care

 

I agree, but that just means I don't think you should make it possible to avoid them. Unavoidable costs, as far as re-playability goes, are better than avoidable costs.

 

When path-order does make a difference, my view is that there should be somewhat equivalent costs regardless of path order, so that no matter if you get a particular event's 'golden' ending, you can't get another ones. No, say, peace between werewolves and elves (another golden outcome).

 

That krogan nuclear family was strange by itself. The same for Eve naming the first baby after Mordin.

I thought there were hundreds of krogans per birth.

 

Maybe they'll all be named Mordin.

 

Mordin1, Mordin2, Mordin3...

[Dean_the_Young]

David Gaider himself has said that he hated the peace option in the quarian-Geth dilemma. One wonders how he feels about Leliana's ending.

 

He'd probably note the huge included caveat, and shake his head as people pretended it didn't exist and would go on forever.

 

Silently, of course, so as to not upset people's headcanon utopian futures until he has a mug biggest enough for all the fan tears after the next game..

[Hellion Rex]

David Gaider himself has said that he hated the peace option in the quarian-Geth dilemma. One wonders how he feels about Leliana's ending.

Who know? Maybe he only had a part in the ending with Cass as Divine. Viv's was probably spear headed by Mary Kirby, and Sheryl handled Leliana's.

That said, I think all 3 endings are gonna have some drawbackas, which might vary in degrees of severity, depending one's own PoV.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

David Gaider himself has said that he hated the peace option in the quarian-Geth dilemma. One wonders how he feels about Leliana's ending.

 

Or what about this comment he made?

 

 

 

I don’t think we’ve ever presented the idea of a mage revolution as 
being the best answer with an obviously good resolution.

 

Link here.

 

It does make me wonder who actually wrote the epilogue slides for DA:I.

[Addai]

Cool. Out of curiosity, what good commander did you talk to when coming up with that rationalization?

Rationalization implying that it's not a defensible proposition on its own, and that merely points to your bias- a boring topic.

[thesuperdarkone2]

David Gaider himself has said that he hated the peace option in the quarian-Geth dilemma. One wonders how he feels about Leliana's ending.

I'd pay to see pro-templar reactions if it turned out that Gaider supported the Leliana endings. How would you feel if he did support it?

[AresKeith]

I'd pay to see pro-templar reactions if it turned out that Gaider supported the Leliana endings. How would you feel if he did support it?

 

Why do always do that?

 

You always try to antagonize people