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[thesuperdarkone2]

 Ooh, so we are finally moving away from the "brainwashing"-nonsense only for the rebel-supporters to admit they'll back the rebels in any cause they wish -- even allying with an ancient Darkspawn magister to destroy the world?

 

 

Nice! 

Wat?

[raging_monkey]

Viva la revoulution

[ComedicSociopathy]

They could say "you join us or you die"

 

Join us and die later fighting our enemies or don't join us and die right now. 

 

Both options ultimately lead to the same place, but I suppose the later is a slightly better choice. Honestly, I've always been under the impression that the mages were brainwashed. I just can't believe that the bulk of them would willingly join a darkspawn magister with a threat of join or die, especially Fiona. At least the Templars have the excuse that only their chain of command turned corrupt while the rank-and-file were duped into using red lyrium. Also, all the notes about the Venatori are told from the perspective of magisters and not rebel mages, which I think shows that they had little to no agency after Redcliffe likely because they were turned into mindless slaves. 

[Boost32]

Join us and die later fighting our enemies or don't join us and die right now. 
 
Both options ultimately lead to the same place, but I suppose the later is a slightly better choice. Honestly, I've always been under the impression that the mages were brainwashed. I just can't believe that the bulk of them would willingly join a darkspawn magister with a threat of join or die, especially Fiona. At least the Templars have the excuse that only their chain of command turned corrupt while the rank-and-file were duped into using red lyrium. Also, all the notes about the Venatori are told from the perspective of magisters and not rebel mages, which I think shows that they had little to no agency after Redcliffe likely because they were turned into mindless slaves.

Its ok that you believe it, I never said the brainwash theory was wrong, all I said there is no proof they were brainwashed.
I can see why you think they were (the grey wardens mages were brainwashed), but it still a theory, just like the "joins us or die" is a theory.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Join us and die later fighting our enemies or don't join us and die right now. 

 

Both options ultimately lead to the same place, but I suppose the later is a slightly better choice. Honestly, I've always been under the impression that the mages were brainwashed. I just can't believe that the bulk of them would willingly join a darkspawn magister with a threat of join or die, especially Fiona. At least the Templars have the excuse that only their chain of command turned corrupt while the rank-and-file were duped into using red lyrium. Also, all the notes about the Venatori are told from the perspective of magisters and not rebel mages, which I think shows that they had little to no agency after Redcliffe likely because they were turned into mindless slaves. 

Don't forget how that you fight that pro-circle mage from the tavern as a miniboss in the torture chamber during IHS. Explain how a pro-circle mage turns into a boastful cory supporter?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Oh, I was referring to these...
 

If you think it's odd they fight you later if you ally with the templars, consider that the Inquisition looks like a military arm of the Chantry to start with *and* it has allied with the templars. It makes complete sense for Fiona's people to fight you, even without Corypheus' influence.

Even if the rebell mages weren't brainwashed (and I think they were), it wouldn't change a thing for me.

Listen I don't care if she attacks Haven if you chose the templars. I actually don't blame her.

[raging_monkey]

Don't forget how that you fight that pro-circle mage from the tavern as a miniboss in the torture chamber during IHS. Explain how a pro-circle mage turns into a boastful cory supporter?

well pro-circle is a broad spectrum... so he could be pro-circle... but pro-tevinter circle. Still a circle

[Barquiel]

 Ooh, so we are finally moving away from the "brainwashing"-nonsense only for the rebel-supporters to admit they'll back the rebels in any cause they wish -- even allying with an ancient Darkspawn magister to destroy the world?
 
 
Nice! 

So siding with the templars whose leadership willingly sided with Cory is obviously fine...but siding with the mages would be a problem if their leadership sold them out to Cory (in an AU)? What kind of logic is that? But it seems it's all a moot point anyway now that someone finally found that note.

[Master Warder Z_]

it's all a moot point anyway now that someone finally found that note.

Bah a few scribbles that may not even be in game and that despite multiple playthroughs I have never once found?

I still have many doubts to that note even existing.

The Venatori encampment in the templar playthrough in the wastes whines about wishing they had red Templars there to act as muscle and the red templar note whines about wishing they had more magical specialists to understand what they were digging up.

I never ran into.a brain washing admission from either.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

So siding with the templars whose leadership willingly sided with Cory is obviously fine...

 
I said nothing to that effect, but thanks for the obligatory strawman.

If there is any doubt, I will say it up front: no, it is not fine for the Templars' leadership to side with Cory... if they are doing so with their right of mind.
 
However, the pro-rebel camp vehemently insists the mages were brainwashed (which we have still not seen the evidence for) and excuses them because of it. On that grounds, they should also excuse the Templars. They are not truly in their right minds when siding with Corypheus; they are doing so mainly out of drug addiction, something that the National Institutes of Health have defined as a mental-illness. Even many countries' court-systems will lessen the severity of punishment for mental illnesses. If it excuses the mages (still waiting on that evidence, BTW), so should it the Templars.

I guess it matters not, though, since the pro-rebels think they are right to join Corypheus even if not brainwashed.

 

but siding with the mages would be a problem if their leadership sold them out to Cory (in an AU)? What kind of logic is that? But it seems it's all a moot point anyway now that someone finally found that note.

The mages are not part of some formal military that will court-marshal and execute them for not following orders like the Templars. If their leadership goes full-retard and they are not truly brainwashed, why not just frickin leave?

And no, we are still waiting on the note.

[AresKeith]

 
I said nothing to that effect, but thanks for the obligatory strawman.

If there is any doubt, I will say it up front: no, it is not fine for the Templars' leadership to side with Cory... if they are doing so with their right of mind.
 
However, the pro-rebel camp vehemently insists the mages were brainwashed (which we have still not seen the evidence for) and excuses them because of it. On that grounds, they should also excuse the Templars. They are not truly in their right minds when siding with Corypheus; they are doing so mainly out of drug addiction, something that the National Institutes of Health have defined as a mental-illness. Even many countries' court-systems will lessen the severity of punishment for mental illnesses. If it excuses the mages (still waiting on that evidence, BTW), so should it the Templars.

I guess it matters not, though, since the pro-rebels think they are right to join Corypheus even if not brainwashed.

 

Not to mention that the Red Templars tried to subtly turn the Templars with Red Lyrium at first before force feeding them or killing those who resisted 

[Master Warder Z_]

Not to mention that the Red Templars tried to subtly turn the Templars with Red Lyrium at first before force feeding them or killing those who resisted

Denam should burn in hell o.o

[DuskWanderer]

Yes, that is something I've yet to see the evidence for. All we see is that the Venatori performed some kind of ritual, not that the mages were brainwashed. By contrast, the templars were put on Red Lyrium, which does brainwash them (makes them unable to think), is a death sentence (like the Blight), and Corypheus controls it. 

 

It's just more pro-mage nonsense. The templars have their faults, but they were either brainwashed or killed into submission. Some mages resisted, but many joined the Venatori willingly. 

[Barquiel]

I said nothing to that effect, but thanks for the obligatory strawman.

If there is any doubt, I will say it up front: no, it is not fine for the Templars' leadership to side with Cory... if they are doing so with their right of mind.
 
However, the pro-rebel camp vehemently insists the mages were brainwashed (which we have still not seen the evidence for) and excuses them because of it. On that grounds, they should also excuse the Templars. They are not truly in their right minds when siding with Corypheus; they are doing so mainly out of drug addiction, something that the National Institutes of Health have defined as a mental-illness. Even many countries' court-systems will lessen the severity of punishment for mental illnesses. If it excuses the mages (still waiting on that evidence, BTW), so should it the Templars.

I guess it matters not, though, since the pro-rebels think they are right to join Corypheus even if not brainwashed.

 

The mages are not part of some formal military that will court-marshal and execute them for not following orders like the Templars. If their leadership goes full-retard and they are not truly brainwashed, why not just frickin leave?

And no, we are still waiting on the note.

The mages couldn't leave Redcliff because they would be killed be the templars. And no, I don't buy that the rank and file templars couldn't leave if they wanted to. The Inquisition had templars in its ranks from the beginning and if you talk to that cleric in Val Royeaux she'll tell you that there are templars who chose to stay with the chantry and didn't rebel. And these templars obviously weren't court marshalled and executed.

Siding with Cory is not right. But even if Fiona willingly sided with him (which is seriously doubt) it wouldn't be any worse than what the templars leadership did, it would be exactly the same...which in turn means that it wouldn't affect my choice to side with the mages.

[Ryzaki]

Denam should burn in hell o.o

 

Exile in the sea of ash works

 

Him wetting his pants during the judgement is the cherry ontop.

[DuskWanderer]

The mages couldn't leave Redcliff because they would be killed be the templars. And no, I don't buy that the rank and file templars couldn't leave if they wanted to. The Inquisition had templars in its ranks from the beginning and if you talk to that cleric in Val Royeaux she'll tell you that there are templars who chose to stay with the chantry and didn't rebel. And these templars obviously weren't court marshalled and executed.

Siding with Cory is not right. But even if Fiona willingly sided with him (which is seriously doubt) it wouldn't be any worse than what the templars leadership did, it would be exactly the same...which in turn means that it wouldn't affect my choice to side with the mages.

 

It is the same with the mages: The Inquisition has mages of it's own, as well as the Loyalists, which are controlled by Vivienne. The templars were simply in no position to deal with anyone, either the mages or the ones in their ranks that stayed in Val Royeaux or joined the Inquisition.

 

Even if Fiona did not ally with Corypheus, she did ally with the Venatori. She had reservations, but she did willingly do it. By contrast, the templars were put on red lyrium and brainwashed. The only one we see who completely knew the risks was Denam, and he's condemned even by the templars. 

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Exile in the sea of ash works

 

Him wetting his pants during the judgement is the cherry ontop.

Denam wetting his pants during the judgement couldn't be better than Erimond wetting his pants during the judgement. The Wardens send their regards. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

It is the same with the mages: The Inquisition has mages of it's own, as well as the Loyalists, which are controlled by Vivienne. The templars were simply in no position to deal with anyone, either the mages or the ones in their ranks that stayed in Val Royeaux or joined the Inquisition.
 
Even if Fiona did not ally with Corypheus, she did ally with the Venatori. She had reservations, but she did willingly do it. By contrast, the templars were put on red lyrium and brainwashed. The only one we see who completely knew the risks was Denam, and he's condemned even by the templars.

Presumably Fiona reached out to the Inquisition first before Alexius went back in time and manipulated her. While the templars who were under no duress didn't even reach out to the Inquisition.
 
The fact is, I and I presume Barquiel think it is hypocritical to condemn the rank and file of the rebel mages for the mistakes of their superiors and pardon the rank and file of the templars for the same thing. Fiona allied with the Venatori under duress, and a sin committed under duress is a sin on the one who ordered it, not the one whose hands carried out the deed. That would fall under Alexius.

 

If we are to pardon the templars, why would then it be consistent to condemn the rebel mages? I do not see their excuse of just being a "good soldier following orders" or being part of a military organization any less duress than what the persecution of the rebel mages faced who if the inquisition co-opts the templars, are manipulated and victimized, left with out allies, and thrown to the wolves.

[Addai]

Even if Fiona did not ally with Corypheus, she did ally with the Venatori. She had reservations, but she did willingly do it. By contrast, the templars were put on red lyrium and brainwashed. The only one we see who completely knew the risks was Denam, and he's condemned even by the templars. 

At that point no one even knew what the Venatori were, let alone Corypheus.

 

Lambert and then Lucius are both giant nobs, but around BSN it's all Fiona hate all the time.

[Ryzaki]

Ah nvm.

 

But yeah ra ra Fiona hate.

 

I might actually dislike her less if I wasn't stuck with her when siding with the mages. As it is she's like a booger on my pizza.

[Addai]

Probably has something to do with the former two not getting a get out of jail free card if you side with their faction.

Must be Cole doesn't think she deserves to die. What does that tell you?

[Sports72Xtrm]

Probably has something to do with the former two not getting a get out of jail free card if you side with their faction.

So does Barris but he gets a free pass even though he knew he was feeding his brothers red lyrium. And the reason is because he's an agent of the Inquisition. Employees get pardons I suppose. The Inquisition wasn't going to get the rebel mages to co-operate with out the de facto grand enchanter.

[Ryzaki]

Must be Cole doesn't think she deserves to die. What does that tell you?

 

Cole has sympathy for incompetent fools.

 

The only people Cole has no symapthy for are complete irredemable monsters like Erimond. Fiona not being complete evil isn't an achievement. 99% of the cast accomplished that much.

[Master Warder Z_]

Must be Cole doesn't think she deserves to die. What does that tell you?

Cole doesn't comment on Corrin either.

o.o And he surely needed to die.

[Ryzaki]

Edit: Ugh this was a Barris didn't know what the red lyrium was capable of defense. He didn't. Blaming him for red lyrium is pretty close to blaming Fiona for the time travel mishap Alexius caused.