752 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The mages couldn't leave Redcliff because they would be killed be the templars.

Death was a risk they accepted when they chose to rebel. Because, living under tighter scrutiny for a while was too much to ask.
 
Helping Cory destroy southern Thedas, though? Winning cause, right there.
 

And no, I don't buy that the rank and file templars couldn't leave if they wanted to. The Inquisition had templars in its ranks from the beginning and if you talk to that cleric in Val Royeaux she'll tell you that there are templars who chose to stay with the chantry and didn't rebel. And these templars obviously weren't court marshalled and executed.

After the Conclave, the Templar leadership was non-existent. In that short window of time, yes, they could safely defect.
 
If you think that the leadership under Lucius would have been okay with their soldiers deciding to leave, though, then I do not know what to tell you. Especially knowing that Lucius was really an Envy Demon. Just answer me this one question: when have demons ever let their minions go?
 

But even if Fiona willingly sided with him (which is seriously doubt) it wouldn't be any worse than what the templars leadership did, it would be exactly the same

No it would not. Fiona does not have a chemical addiction working against her like the Templars do.

[Boost32]

The fact is, I and I presume Barquiel think it is hypocritical to condemn the rank and file of the rebel mages for the mistakes of their superiors and pardon the rank and file of the templars for the same thing. Fiona allied with the Venatori under duress, and a sin committed under duress is a sin on the one who ordered it, not the one whose hands carried out the deed. That would fall under Alexius.

 

If people condemm the others rebel mages and pardon rhe rank and file of templars, they are hypocrites.

But in no way Fiona is innocent, she is a bad leader, and her mistakes can lead her mages to their doom. It can lead them to freedom too, but its dumb luck, in no way related to her decisions.

I think she is better than the commander who corrupted the templars, she wanted the better for her mages, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions and she should pay for what she has done, unfortunately there is no way to punish her if you side with the mages.

[Addai]

Cole has sympathy for incompetent fools.

 

The only people Cole has no symapthy for are complete irredemable monsters like Erimond. Fiona not being complete evil isn't an achievement. 99% of the cast accomplished that much.

We're not comparing her to them, but to the Seeker leaders. And incompetence isn't evil, no. You can conscript her, which is making her and everyone under her a prisoner. I understand that the haters want to be able to side with the mages just to make her Tranquil. My heart bleeds for them.

[Ryzaki]

We're not comparing her to them, but to the Seeker leaders. And incompetence isn't evil, no. You can conscript her, which is making her and everyone under her a prisoner. I understand that the haters want to be able to side with the mages just to make her Tranquil. My heart bleeds for them.

 

I never said she was evil so your point?

 

Believe me it's plenty soothed by gutting her at Haven

[Sports72Xtrm]

 

After the Conclave, the Templar leadership was non-existent. In that short window of time, yes, they could safely defect.
 
If you think that the leadership under Lucius would have been okay with their soldiers deciding to leave, though, then I do not know what to tell you. Especially knowing that Lucius was really an Envy Demon. Just answer me this one question: when have demons ever let their minions go?

Blessed are they who stand before
The corrupt and the wicked and do not falter.
Blessed are the peacekeepers, the champions of the just

Blessed are the righteous, the lights in the shadow.

In their blood the Maker's will is written.

 

When Andraste preached these verses, she offered her followers a path of virtue. "In their blood the Maker's will is written" is usually interpreted to mean sacrificing one's life for a righteous cause, but like most of the Chant, deeper meaning hides beneath the surface. "In their blood" can be understood as a reference to continuity, an unbroken line of humble behavior required to please the Maker.

Rather than a physical fight against demon or apostate, Andraste meant this verse as a warning that her faithful should judge their heart's intentions, questioning those who would lead them astray. Champions of the Just are those with the courage to admit their wrongdoing, while letting none continue in their sight.

Unsurprisingly, the Fourth Stanza is popular among militant branches of the Chantry, such as the knights-enchanter and the Templar Order.

—Notes on the Chant of Light, by Mother Bezoria of the Grand Cathedral, 9:39 Dragon

If the templars do not live by the creed they only have themselves to blame and they are not as their quest to redeem them says "Champions of the Just". If the templars are nothing but the Inquisition's killers and thugs then the rebel mages were the better option all along.

[AresKeith]

So does Barris but he gets a free pass even though he knew he was feeding his brothers red lyrium. And the reason is because he's an agent of the Inquisition. Employees get pardons I suppose. The Inquisition wasn't going to get the rebel mages to co-operate with out the de facto grand enchanter.

 

Umm except Barris doesn't know what Red Lyrium do to people

 

As for the bolded part lol, I honestly doubt the rebel mages would really care 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Umm except Barris doesn't know what Red Lyrium do to people

 

As for the bolded part lol, I honestly doubt the rebel mages would really care 

The Tale of the Champion is read by everybody and everyone knows what happened to Meredith. The freaking Circles know what happened to Meredith.

[Ryzaki]

The Tale of the Champion is read by everybody and everyone knows what happened to Meredith. The freaking Circles know what happened to Meredith.

 

....the game constantly beats you over the head with most people not knowing wtf red lyrium really is or what it does. It's why those carta dwarves will actually smuggle it.

 

If you choose to ignore that that's on you not the game.

[Sports72Xtrm]

....the game constantly beats you over the head with most people not knowing wtf red lyrium really is or what it does. It's why those carta dwarves will actually smuggle it.

 

If you choose to ignore that that's on you not the game.

 

 

• Blackwall: Is it true that Kirkwall's Knight Commander became a... statue.
• Varric: Absolutely true. She's still there, bringing an extra dose of horror to gallows tourists.
• Blackwall: No one's moved it... I mean her?
• Varric: And make it impossible for children to play "Who's Brave Enough to Poke Meredith?"
• Blackwall: They don't actually do that, do they?
• Varric: No. No one's brave enough to poke Meredith.

I call bullshit. the seekers, the kirkwall templars, hell maybe even cullen should have given them a heads up. it's not like what's happening in kirkwall is a secret and deflecting responsibility with out a basis of ignorance is such a pass the buck move.

[Ryzaki]

I call bullshit

 

*facepalms*

 

You reread that banter a few more times til it sinks in that says nothing about red lyrium being the cause of that. And we know Varric kept the red lyrium to himself (and those in Hawke's group obviously) because he says as much in Oh, **** (wait let me be fair that might've just been the location of the thaig. It's been a while since I did that quest). But yeah keep ignoring the game lore because you want to claim Barris knew what red lyrium did despite the game telling you constantly in COTJ they did not know it had those damn side effects and those that did know where the ones feeding it to them. (And are also the ones you can stab to death and call it a day).

 

Let's also ignore that Quizzy has read Tale of the Champion (he/she says as much) and they don't know what red lyrium does either!

[Sports72Xtrm]

*facepalms*

 

You reread that banter a few more times til it sinks in that says nothing about red lyrium being the cause of that. And we know Varric kept the red lyrium to himself (and those in Hawke's group obviously) because he says as much in Oh, ****. But yeah keep ignoring the game lore because you want to claim Barris knew what red lyrium did.

The points moot anyways. If Fiona being ignorant of the venatori is acceptable why is it acceptable for the templars to be ignorant of red lyrium which again, is highly suspect no one heard of red lyrium? Even cassandra doesn't coddle the templars as much as the pro-templar bsn. That the thing about pro-templars, they knee jerk defend the templars in everything but condemn mages for the same stuff the templars have done. Hypocrites.

[Ryzaki]

The points moot anyways. If Fiona being ignorant of the venatori is acceptable why is it acceptable for the templars to be ignorant of red lyrium which again, is highly suspect know one heard of red lyrium? Even cassandra doesn't coddle the templars as much as the pro-templar bsn. That the thing about pro-templars, they knee jerk defend the templars in everything but condemn mages for the same stuff the templars have done. Hypocrites.

 

 

Fiona being ignorant of the Ventoari would be a complete non issue if she didn't invite them into a land not her own and they ran out the actual land owners out.

[Master Warder Z_]

Goodness this inane back and forth brings me back.

That said if red lyrium was common knowledge then why did Varric investigate it in secret? You figure if everyone in the free marches knew about it after the events at the gallows there wouldn't be much point to sneaking around asking mining houses.

[Sports72Xtrm]

 

Fiona being ignorant of the Ventoari would be a complete non issue if she didn't invite them into a land not her own and they ran out the actual land owners out.

Just as the templars being hooked on red lyrium would be a non issue if they didn't forsake their code to defend Val Royeax, or the Chantry, or help the Inquisition instead of following Lord Seeker Lucius, or do their goddamn job and know when they are following a demon...

[AresKeith]

Just as the templars being hooked on red lyrium would be a non issue if they didn't forsake their code to defend Val Royeax, or the Chantry, or help the Inquisition instead of following Lord Seeker Lucius, or do their goddamn job and know when they are following a demon...

 

Like how the rebel mages let their "leader" sell them into slavery 

[Ryzaki]

If red lyrium is common knowledge Vladammar makes no sense. All you have to do is read the damn notes to tell they didn't realize it was that different than normal lyrium.

 

Jesus the game really beats you over the head with it not being widely know. I just don't understand...

[Ryzaki]

Just as the templars being hooked on red lyrium would be a non issue if they didn't forsake their code to defend Val Royeax, or the Chantry, or help the Inquisition instead of following Lord Seeker Lucius, or do their goddamn job and know when they are following a demon...

 

And Fiona could've avoided being attacked by rogue templars if she had joined the Inquisition at the beginning instead of turning up her nose if we're going to play that game.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Blessed are they who stand before
The corrupt and the wicked and do not falter.
Blessed are the peacekeepers, the champions of the just

Blessed are the righteous, the lights in the shadow.

In their blood the Maker's will is written.

If the templars do not live by the creed they only have themselves to blame and they are not as their quest to redeem them says "Champions of the Just". If the templars are nothing but the Inquisition's killers and thugs then the rebel mages were the better option all along.

 

I agree with you.

 

So does Ser Barris, BTW, saying the Templars should never have forgotten their duty. And they accept the Inquisition absorbing them pretty graciously.

 

So tell me, then, what does it say of the mages when they blindly follow inept leadership, later the whims of a Tevinter magister, and possibly an ancient Darkspawn magister -- with even less restrictions in their way than the Templars and no chemical addictions?

[thesuperdarkone2]

The points moot anyways. If Fiona being ignorant of the venatori is acceptable why is it acceptable for the templars to be ignorant of red lyrium which again, is highly suspect no one heard of red lyrium? Even cassandra doesn't coddle the templars as much as the pro-templar bsn. That the thing about pro-templars, they knee jerk defend the templars in everything but condemn mages for the same stuff the templars have done. Hypocrites.

I also find it funny that pro-templars see a templar go bad and say "that's just an exception. you can't condemn them all for what they did" and yet whenever a mage uses blood magic or becomes an abomination, they go "see, we were right. all mages are corrupt/incompetent". I support a circle system but not the way it is now. Letting templars believe they have divine right to punish mages is just asking for abuses. Heck, the codex entry for templars says that the chantry prefers templars that are fanatical in their faith rather than moral ones. In other words, the chantry would prefer someone like Meredith to someone like Barris or Evangeline. Heck, even Gregoir was willing to beat up a pregnant mage in the dragon age comic released before DAO came out. 

 

Even if the templars are reformed, DA2 and Inquisition have pretty much confirmed that corrupt leadership can damn the templars and thus the mages. Thrask and Samson imply that the Gallows wasn't the rape and abuse prison it is now before Meredith came to power. Inquisition pretty much confirmed much of the templar leadership was corrupt and if you don't side with them, the templar order is competely corrupted. All it takes is one bad leader and the templars will become like the ones in Kirkwall. I can never justify the possibility of rape, abuse, and taking people's children right from their arms and telling them they will never see them again. Thank goodness that Leliana permanently disbands the templars and allows mages to form their own independent circle system. I think the future for mages will be brighter without the templars.

[Master Warder Z_]

o.o next thing you know imaginary notes will be brought up again.

[AresKeith]

If red lyrium is common knowledge Vladammar makes no sense. All you have to do is read the damn notes to tell they didn't realize it was that different than normal lyrium.

 

Jesus the game really beats you over the head with it not being widely know. I just don't understand...

 

The only logical conclusion is that Varric never mentions Red Lyrium in his book

[thesuperdarkone2]

And Fiona could've avoided being attacked by rogue templars if she had joined the Inquisition at the beginning instead of turning up her nose if we're going to play that game.

Except she was going to before Alexius used his time magic. Dorian outright confirms Alexius used time magic to steal the mages from you. If Alexius didn't exist, Fiona's first choice would have been the Inquisition.

[Ryzaki]

The only logical conclusion is that Varric never mentions Red Lyrium in his book

 

Which would make perfect sense.

 

You know if he did some loon would've gone looking for it.

[Boost32]

Except she was going to before Alexius used his time magic. Dorian outright confirms Alexius used time magic to steal the mages from you. If Alexius didn't exist, Fiona's first choice would have been the Inquisition.

And Barris says a lot of the templars wants to help to seal the breach, but their commanders wants them to stay in Therinfal.

 

Fiona in Val Royeuax could be the envy demon, I still dont see how she could go past the templars deserters alone, sundely appear at Val royeaux near a contigent of templars and nothing happening to her.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Which would make perfect sense.

 

You know if he did some loon would've gone looking for it.

Then mind explaining why the codex entry for red lyrium clearly shows people know what it is and what it did to Meredith. Or why the Kirkwall templars WHO WERE RIGHT THERE AND SAW WHAT IT DID TO MEREDITH TOOK RED LYRIUM?!