53 replies to this topic

[CosmicGnosis]

The Collector Base decision should have been one of the most morally ambiguous choices in the trilogy. In fact, during the Suicide Mission, your squad mates make compelling arguments for keeping or destroying it. The stupidity begins after the credits. Suddenly, your entire crew condemns your decision to preserve the base, even Legion and Mordin, the two characters who offered the best reasons for keeping it. The idiocy also exists in Shepard's reason for destroying it: it's an abomination, and whatever technology that could be found there isn't worth it. The place is tainted, so we must kill it with fire. This is a purely emotional argument. No logic is present here. And yet, BioWare wanted us to feel bad for keeping it. Paragon is good and Renegade is evil. It's as simple as that.

 

Thankfully, Mass Effect 3 actually kind of ignored this insanity. I think morality was handled quite well, and the hypocrisy of Shepard's pro-destroy argument is exposed in the form of the Human-Reaper War Assets. Whether or not you keep the base, the galaxy incorporates the Human-Reaper remains into the Crucible, providing it with either tremendous raw power (the Reaper Heart), or tremendous computing power (the Reaper Brain). Well, what do you have to say about that, Shepard? Isn't the Human-Reaper an abomination? Shouldn't you be appalled that the galaxy benefits from using a machine corpse made up of thousands of humans? Have you let fear compromise who you are? Have you sacrificed the soul of your species, perhaps all species?

 

Yeah... this was a bit of a rant. At least the ME3 ending doesn't judge your choices. My canon Shepard is mostly Paragon, but I think keeping the base is the smart thing to do. The threat of indoctrination is real, but it can be managed if you're careful. The Crucible engineers are able to do it. I also wish that Miranda didn't suddenly get so emotional about the decision, when she was one of the most pragmatic characters in the game up until that moment. Something went horribly wrong in the writing at the very end of Mass Effect 2, and it's actually kind of worse than Mass Effect 3's case.

 

And I still don't know what the decision actually means. If I keep it, am I saying that the Illusive Man can try to build his own Reaper? Is that why it's so evil? Is that why the game condemns me? Is that why destroying it should be the only answer? Is that why Miranda thinks that it's going too far? If this is the case, then I actually do approve of destroying it. But I don't think the game makes that very clear when it's time to choose.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Collector Base decision was stupid. The fact that it existed in the first place was stupid. It was like you could overload the reactor to blow the base from that magic panel in the floating platform, then suddenly space magic took over and you could also trigger an electromagnetic pulse from the same panel. Wow. It makes no sense. If you didn't bring the equipment to do the latter with you why do you all of a sudden have it? The CB decision was an ass pull to once again give the player a choice where there shouldn't have been one. The other instance the Destiny Ascension decision.

[themikefest]

The only time the decision to keep or destroy the base has any effect in the trilogy is if ems is below 1750. I'm sure everyone may know that.

 

I read  a post from someone to leave the base to the council and let them decide what to do. 

[Vazgen]

From War asset description it seemed to me that the brain can indoctrinate people.

Reaper Brain:

The Illusive Man salvaged the most valuable part of the human proto-Reaper under construction by the Collectors: its central processor. This "brain" has been reactivated for use as a computational device, crunching unheard amounts of data in nanoseconds. The Crucible's engineers are dissecting the processor, working in strictly supervised, drone-assisted shifts. While direct contact with Reapers is dangerous, the engineers feel the risk is worth the potential discovery of vulnerabilities in Reaper construction.

 

Reaper Heart:

After Commander Shepard destroyed the Collector base, Cerberus spent months picking through irradiated rubble for anything useful. The human proto-Reaper the Collectors were building lay in pieces. But its incomplete core survived. The power cell would have been capable of fueling a full-fledged Reaper. After studying the device, Cerberus modified it to fuel the Illusive Man's base. Alliance engineers believe they can use the core similarly to power the Crucible.

 

So unless you want indoctrinated people working on the only chance of defeating the Reapers, I'd say destroying the base is the right decision. On the other hand, it's pure metagaming, Shepard doesn't know squat at the point of making the decision. I save the base to avoid the line "I won't let fear to compromise who I am"

[RedCardinal_N7]

Too bad, there was no option to leave Collector Base to the Council, or to the Alliance. Destroying that base was illogical for me, however I had to do it, cause I didn't want to give it to the Cerberus. Saying that, the base is an abomination and whatever technology that could be found there isn't worth it, just doesn't make sense for me. Like CosmicGnosis said "This is a purely emotional argument"... many thousands of people died up there, and it turns out their death was pointless at all.  Technology from CB, could be used in war against Reapers in ME3. Maybe there would be a chance for a happy ending then, who knows

[cap and gown]

The way I work around the illogic of the destroy decision is to pretend that Shepard doesn't talk about an "abomination" but rather that she just doesn't trust TIM. If she could give it to the Council or Alliance she would keep it, but she knows that TIM will get there first so rather than risk it she destroys it.

 

If you pick the Renegade options in the dialogue with TIM that follows the destruction of the base, then when you get to Mars in ME3 Shepard will say the reason she destroyed the base was because she didn't trust TIM. If you pick the paragon options in the dialogue with TIM after destroying the base then when Shepard talks with TIM on Mars in ME3, she will say the reason she chose destroy was because the place was an abomination. Therefore, when I destroy the base, I always go the renegade route in the final dialogue with TIM.

[Valmar]

I think one of the bigger issues with with the trilogy is that it gave people the impression that renegade=evil and paragon=good. How many people blindly stuck with the blue path because they felt anything colored red was inherently "wrong" and "evil"?

 

Anyway, if it makes you feel better, Legion doesn't disagree with you using the base. Neither result is an error. He doesn't condemn you for it. He just doesn't think its best. Similar to how the geth don't think the heretics are wrong, yet don't agree with their ideology.

 

Personally, I always think of it this way... the squad who are for saving the base all say so under the assumption that its just the base. They're not against the actual base being preserved. The complaint they all have at the end, the ones who originally supported it anyway, isn't that you saved it- its that you gave it to the Illusive Man. None of them really said you should give it to Cerberus, only that it should be used. Maybe they all expected you to turn it over to the Alliance or the Council or something, but then Shepard turns around and gives it the Illusive Man.

 

I myself am completely for saving the base. I just disagree with giving it to Cerberus. Sadly we have no choice in the matter. I can't change  what Shepard does when the plot takes him out of my control.

 

 

From War asset description it seemed to me that the brain can indoctrinate people.

[snip]

 

While factually accurate you're using metagame knowledge to validate your choice.

[cap and gown]

 

Personally, I always think of it this way... the squad who are for saving the base all say so under the assumption that its just the base. They're not against the actual base being preserved. The complaint they all have at the end, the ones who originally supported it anyway, isn't that you saved it- its that you gave it to the Illusive Man. None of them really said you should give it to Cerberus, only that it should be used. Maybe they all expected you to turn it over to the Alliance or the Council or something, but then Shepard turns around and gives it the Illusive Man.

 

 

This disconnect between what the crew is able to say about destroying/keeping the base, and what Shepard is able to say has really bothered me. The crew can express doubts about Cerberus and wish the base had been destroyed, but Shepard can't express the same reasons for picking destroy. Its almost as if there were two different writers here, one for the crew reactions, and one for Shepard.

[Vazgen]

While factually accurate you're using metagame knowledge to validate your choice.

Check the other half of my comment

[NM_Che56]

Video game and development restrictions aside, narratively speaking the decision, had major potential consequences.

 

Essentially, we could let the Illusive Man take ownership of a potential treasure trove of Reaper tech.  Do you trust him with it? Will he use it for the benefit of humanity? Will it be at the expense of other races? Fast forward to Mass Effect 3 and we know

Spoiler

that he is, in fact, indoctrinated and working for the Reapers

.What if that tech made him and Cerberus unstoppable?  In the video game, what if preserving the Reaper base introduced new, tougher Cerberus units in game? What if it unlocked that final boss battle that BioWare considered?  

Spoiler

 

That could have been cool.

 

Entrusting a rather sketchy person with creepy, advanced tech aside, brings up an ethical issue: Is it ok to re-purpose something abominable if it has the potential to do good? Or is it too tainted?  Kind of like the decision as to whether or not to keep Maelon's research. 

 

Spoiler

We know now that destroying the research essentially leads to Urdnot Bakara (aka, Eve) dying in the end.  This destabilizes the Krogan.  In ME3, that just knocks down your military strength by 50 pts...which is a pittance, really.  But narratively speaking, what if that has major consequences down the road? Never finding a cure, Krogan basically killing themselves off due to clan wars, etc.

 

It would have been great if they were able to do more with it, but hey...video games.

[Valmar]

This disconnect between what the crew is able to say about destroying/keeping the base, and what Shepard is able to say has really bothered me. The crew can express doubts about Cerberus and wish the base had been destroyed, but Shepard can't express the same reasons for picking destroy. Its almost as if there were two different writers here, one for the crew reactions, and one for Shepard.

 

Well to be fair, he KINDA does touch on it. He can mention how he doesn't trust Cerberus. Something about them being ruthless and trying to make a reaper themselves.

 

I think the real issue we all have here is pretty much the same...

 

He wont let fear compromise who he is!

 

Face? Meet palm.

 

 

Check the other half of my comment

 

The sad thing is that I did read it all... yet I seem to have overlooked that bit. I r shame. Forgive me Vaz-sama.

 

@Master Che

Nahhhh, that'd be too video gamey.

 

In all serious though I actually agree with Bioware's reasoning for not turning TIM into some giant reaper-human brute. I'm bias but TIM is one of my favorite video game characters and I like that they kept the emphasis on his power being his intellect rather than making him some giant hulking smash monster. At risk of crossing series, it'd remind me of the Batman Arkham Asylum ending where Joker turns into a giant hulking muscled abomination. Doesn't suit the character for me, personally. Loses a bit of its charm in the process.

 

That being said I would have absolutely adored to see The Illusive Man in a chair linked up to a server with wires like in the concept art. That really appeals to me and I feel it would had been even more suiting to the character's personality and put even further emphasis on his power being his intellect.

 

Though perhaps they could have still used the human brute... just not as the Illusive Man. Maybe, while he's in his chair in his station all wired up, he controls a bunch of cerberus reaper monsters in the room. Maybe its invincible  and the trick to the battle is to damage the computers in the room to sever TIM's connection. Of course, this would mean the TIM confrontation wouldn't be be on the Citadel... but I'm okay with that. Lol.

[wolfhowwl]

Yeah, the Paragon option doesn't really make sense.

 

A bigger problem is that it gives players the option to blow up the plot along with the collector base making ME2 pointless.

 

It probably would have been better to have the Big Decision^TM be choosing who to hand the Collector Base or Reaper to.

[Laughing_Man]

Yeah, I remember writing something similar at some point.

Blowing up the base made very little sense compared for example to bringing a multi-race scientific and security force watched by Spectres,

to study the place. At the very least, it would have made the council actually consider the possibility of the Reaper threat.

 

But oh well, artistic integrity and all that.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Maybe im just being silly here but...the Collector Base contains Reaper tech and Reaper tech indoctrinates people. Better to just get rid of it.

[Valmar]

Maybe im just being silly here but...the Collector Base contains Reaper tech and Reaper tech indoctrinates people. Better to just get rid of it.

 

EDI and the Normandy's cannon are both based around reaper tech. Not to mention the relays and the citadel. Not /all/ reaper tech indoctrinates, there is some good we can get out of the base. I suspect the only thing there that actually indoctrinates is the human-reaper.

[Ithurael]

^That sounds exactly like something an indoctrinated person would say!!!

 

Check your eyes Valmar....I think they are turning blue!!

[Valmar]

Your vision is pathetically limited. You think because I'm willing to use the enemy's tactics, that they're no longer my enemy? My methods for dealing with the Reapers are simply more refined than yours.

[themikefest]

Who cares? Unless the player decides to do a low ems playthrough in ME3

 

Too bad it didn't have a green explosion. Half the base is saved and the other half is destroyed

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

EDI and the Normandy's cannon are both based around reaper tech. Not to mention the relays and the citadel. Not /all/ reaper tech indoctrinates, there is some good we can get out of the base. I suspect the only thing there that actually indoctrinates is the human-reaper.

 

But.... but if Shepard gave the Council the Collector base, (s)he would have had proof. Shepard can never have proof of anything. It can only be dreams and visions. Cerberus having the base still doesn't supply Shepard with proof because The Illusive Man is the bad guy.

 

And I don't think that dead human-reaper indoctrinates.

 

But like themikefest said, too bad they didn't have a green explosion. Hey maybe the Collectors could have been saved and gained understanding and become aware of their Prothean heritage, and what was left of the human-reaper may have understood as well and shared our human history with us. Then Shepard would have known "I am the bad guy."

[Vazgen]

Seems worth a repeat. War Asset - Reaper Brain (obtained if the base was preserved)

 

 

The Illusive Man salvaged the most valuable part of the human proto-Reaper under construction by the Collectors: its central processor. This "brain" has been reactivated for use as a computational device, crunching unheard amounts of data in nanoseconds. The Crucible's engineers are dissecting the processor, working in strictly supervised, drone-assisted shifts. While direct contact with Reapers is dangerous, the engineers feel the risk is worth the potential discovery of vulnerabilities in Reaper construction.

[Valmar]

Hey maybe the Collectors could have been saved and gained understanding and become aware of their Prothean heritage,

 

Funny thing is that they do. "Awakened Collectors."

 

"When the Reaper-killer known as Leviathan fought the Collectors, it severed their connection to Harbinger with a thrall device. Most Collector forces died as a result, but a few survived. Now, these rare individuals fight for the memory of their people, a proud race broken by the Reapers."

[Kynare]

I suppose it makes things easier then that aside from not trusting TIM, destroying the Collector base was mostly an emotional reaction from my Shepard. She just watched her entire crew get turned into human goo in their pods a minute before and reacted in the best way she saw fit—make explosions.   I'm sure Jack appreciated the show.

[dgcatanisiri]

The dominant theme for me in playing Mass Effect, even if they ended up going in a vastly different direction, was pre-destination versus self-determination. So from that, I saw the Collector Base as a fundamental question - use the Collector Base, try to find weaknesses within learning what the Reapers have, or destroy the base and attempt to innovate and come up with new ideas that the Reapers have never seen before. That was always where I was coming from with the question of the Collector Base. I always thought that the point was in breaking away from what came before to try something new that the Reapers had no familiarity with.

 

I mean, obviously, that all ended up getting blown out of the water when I actually played ME3, but that was my thought process going in.

[Laughing_Man]

The dominant theme for me in playing Mass Effect, even if they ended up going in a vastly different direction, was pre-destination versus self-determination. So from that, I saw the Collector Base as a fundamental question - use the Collector Base, try to find weaknesses within learning what the Reapers have, or destroy the base and attempt to innovate and come up with new ideas that the Reapers have never seen before.

 

Heh, and then we play through ME3 and see that it was all just everyone "proving themselves" in some weird roundabout way by making the crucible as an offering to a bratty star child that felt like the stupidest AI we had the displeasure to meet through the Mass Effect trilogy.

[Treacherous J Slither]

EDI and the Normandy's cannon are both based around reaper tech. Not to mention the relays and the citadel. Not /all/ reaper tech indoctrinates, there is some good we can get out of the base. I suspect the only thing there that actually indoctrinates is the human-reaper.

Its not smart to take chances with indoctrination. One day everything is fine and dandy. The next day half your crew are husks. No no no. CB go boom boom.