53 respuestas en este tema

[JamieCOTC]

It's weird. In ME3 my canon Shep tells TIM that she didn't trust him w/ the Collector base and that's why she blew it up. She's a paragon. All other Sheps who destroyed the base called it an abomination in ME2 and ME3.

[themikefest]

It's weird. In ME3 my canon Shep tells TIM that she didn't trust him w/ the Collector base and that's why she blew it up. She's a paragon. All other Sheps who destroyed the base called it an abomination in ME2 and ME3.

If the renegade dialogue is chosen and Shepard still destroys the base, it won't be referred to as an abomination

[cap and gown]

It's weird. In ME3 my canon Shep tells TIM that she didn't trust him w/ the Collector base and that's why she blew it up. She's a paragon. All other Sheps who destroyed the base called it an abomination in ME2 and ME3.

 

Just to clarify what Mikefest said: in the dialogue with TIM after you destroy the Collector base, if you select the renegade responses, then in ME3 Shepard will say the reason she destroyed the base was because she didn't trust TIM. If you select the paragon responses, then in ME3 she will refer to the base as an abomination.

[Laughing_Man]

Of course the base is an abomination, but it changes nothing.

 

Paragon!Shep is a sentimental fool who couldn't quite understand the finality and desperation of the reaper threat, and needed an actual deus ex machina to save everyone from his stupidity. I mean, have you heard his speeches?...

 

And I'm saying that despite making the paragon choices in most the big questions, like Rachni etc.

[aoibhealfae]

I never like pure Paragon or pure Renegade run. My canon Paragade Shep never trust Cerberus from day one. She's a survivor of Akuze where they're experimenting with the intention of creating a perfect soldier.. which they did on her with Project Lazarus. And its her life mission to sabotage Cerberus and its awesome to be a total ass to The Illusive Man although weirdly, some Paragon and Renegade options are pro-Cerberus... so I learn to avoid being too agreeable to TIM.

 

Even if you destroy the base, it doesn't change the fact that Cerberus still use the technology they gain from the Collector Base's wreckage for every bad pro-Reapers things in ME3. The decision to destroy/keep the base only matters if you want to keep Kaidan or Ashley with you.

[Valmar]

 The decision to destroy/keep the base only matters if you want to keep Kaidan or Ashley with you.

 

What correlation is there between destroying/saving the base and the virmire survivor?

[Laughing_Man]

What correlation is there between destroying/saving the base and the virmire survivor?

 

I'm guessing that they are likely to be more suspicious towards Shepard.

[KaeserZen]

I would have liked to keep the base, but knowing that it was either handing it to Cerberus or blowing it up, the choice was quick for me.

 

It was more a "burnt earth policy" than anything else. When looking at Cerberus only from a ME1, ME2 point of view they are racist psychopaths that perform ethically dubious decisions to strengthen a human supremacy in the galaxy.

[Valmar]

I would have liked to keep the base, but knowing that it was either handing it to Cerberus or blowing it up, the choice was quick for me.

 

It was more a "burnt earth policy" than anything else. When looking at Cerberus only from a ME1, ME2 point of view they are racist psychopaths that perform ethically dubious decisions to strengthen a human supremacy in the galaxy.

 

I never knew that. I was under the assumption that the only reaper IFF was the one Shepard had on the Normandy so I had planned on turning to the alliance or the council to give them access to the base. I never expected the game to force Shepard to give the base over to the Illusive Man. Thus, I never destroy the base. Though even if I did know that, Im not sure I'd destroy it. Cerberus have proven themselves at this point to be the only ones taking the reaper threat seriously.

 

I also never got the "racist psychopath" feeling from them either. They didn't even become villains for me until ME3 came in. These racist psychopaths saved the council from a batarian terrorist threat, you know.

[Sifr]

I never knew that. I was under the assumption that the only reaper IFF was the one Shepard had on the Normandy so I had planned on turning to the alliance or the council to give them access to the base. I never expected the game to force Shepard to give the base over to the Illusive Man. Thus, I never destroy the base. Though even if I did know that, Im not sure I'd destroy it. Cerberus have proven themselves at this point to be the only ones taking the reaper threat seriously.

 

I think that the implication is that Cerberus had the same access to data regarding the Reaper IFF, both that acquired by the team on the destroyed Reaper before they became indoctrinated, as well as that from the studies the Normandy crew did on it before installing it? At this point, EDI was still shackled and Miranda was still loyal to TIM, so it would probably make sense that he was still getting updates about their progress.

 

That way, despite us going rogue at the end of the game and whether we destroyed the base or not, they were able to whip up their own Reaper IFF to allow them to travel through the Omega 4 relay safely and scrounge whatever was left to their heart's content?

 

But as for me, I think that destroying the base was the best outcome. Likewise, using the power core seems to be a better outcome because it's just a powerful battery, whereas we're told that the brain is capable of actually indoctrinating people, making it a huge security risk to have considering the people who'd be indoctrinated are working on the only thing that could possibly save us?

[Valmar]

That wasn't the implication I took from it. The impression I got was that the Reaper IFF was a piece of hardware that had to be installed into the system. It wasn't simple code that could be copy/pasted or else what was the point of Shepard having to enter a dead reaper to retrieve it? The Cerberus scientists had been studying it, if it was something you could just transfer with code you'd think Cerberus would have a zip folder or something for it. The physical IFF was clearly significant. The IFF could potentially be duplicated but that would need the original to reverse-engineer. If Cerberus had the knowledge of how to build these things already, as they were studying it for sometime, then why have us get the original?

 

The impression I got was that the reaper IFF was unique and wasn't so easily copied without having a working original there to reverse engineer. It didn't surprise me that Cerberus eventually made their own IFF, just the speed for which they did it. Beyond that whats to say Shepard didn't plan to share this information with the council or alliance? You just did the impossible and now have proof for collectors and a reaper construct. Why wouldn't Shepard give them the IFF and encourage them to go take the base? Warning them that Cerberus might get their hands on should be all the motivation they need. I had no way of knowing that Shepard wouldn't make any attempt to involve the alliance and council and just submit to Cerberus. I certainly had no way of knowing Cerberus would become reaper puppets in ME3.

 

Saving the base was the right decision, imo.

 

The battery vs brain argument holds no water for me. It's purely meta. I based my decisions off of what I knew at the time. It's easier in hindsight to say what was the best choice. The best choice, given the information avaible to us at the time, was to save the base, imo.

[MegaIllusiveMan]

The way I work around the illogic of the destroy decision is to pretend that Shepard doesn't talk about an "abomination" but rather that she just doesn't trust TIM. If she could give it to the Council or Alliance she would keep it, but she knows that TIM will get there first so rather than risk it she destroys it.

 

If you pick the Renegade options in the dialogue with TIM that follows the destruction of the base, then when you get to Mars in ME3 Shepard will say the reason she destroyed the base was because she didn't trust TIM. If you pick the paragon options in the dialogue with TIM after destroying the base then when Shepard talks with TIM on Mars in ME3, she will say the reason she chose destroy was because the place was an abomination. Therefore, when I destroy the base, I always go the renegade route in the final dialogue with TIM.

 

Plus, the "I'm sorry, I can't hear you... I'm getting a lot of bullshit on this line"

[Ice Cold J]

I agree that the whole paragon/renegade decision of your character is basically determined by that one choice.

 

Whether or not it is a good thing to keep or destroy, I don't particularly know or care.

 

In the end, I feel better destroying it b/c TIM stabs you in the back as most teammates suggest he would.

[CosmicGnosis]

Just played through the Suicide Mission again. Wanted to destroy it this time, so I made the appropriate choice... and then reloaded and kept it. I just couldn't do it. And of course, Legion hopes I forge my own future without using the Reapers' gifts. Yeah, well, you were the one who told me that the facility was just data, and I kept the freaking base because I want to identify and exploit as many Reaper weaknesses as I can. Relax, Legion; I don't want to build a Reaper. Maybe the Illusive Man does, but don't blame me for that. And these aren't "gifts". We stole this base so that we could better understand the Reapers. Taking Reaper technology and adapting it for our own purposes. You know, kind of like what you do in ME3. Yeah, how about that, Legion.

 

*Sigh* I have to assume that these post-Suicide Mission lines were added quickly and without the full consent of all the writers.

[Laughing_Man]

This is one (in my opinion) vile notion that is a recurring theme, in many games.

 

According to this notion, it is always better to remain a sentimental idiot even in the face of galactic doom, because inevitably no one ever pays the price for this stupidity. Rather this somehow endears the cute little humans to some galactic god, and they will be saved through an elaborate Deus Ex Machina.

 

In essence, don't try to control your own destiny, sit around and twiddle your thumbs or save a few kittens from trees - everything will be okay.

 

Disgusting.

 

Especially since life couldn't be a more vicious example for the opposite. Yes, sometimes you get lucky, but you can't trust something so fickle.

 

A protagonist being rewarded and lauded as a paragon of humanity for acting with suicidal stupidity is just mind boggling for me.

[Vortex13]

Funny thing is that they do. "Awakened Collectors."

 

"When the Reaper-killer known as Leviathan fought the Collectors, it severed their connection to Harbinger with a thrall device. Most Collector forces died as a result, but a few survived. Now, these rare individuals fight for the memory of their people, a proud race broken by the Reapers."

 

 

I know this is off topic, but I always took the Awakened Collector's description as Alliance/Council propaganda for the enlisted troops as they brought the Leviathans into the war. I mean, they wouldn't exactly want to let everyone know that the very beings responsible for the creation of the Reapers, and who are quite capable of seizing control of any nearby organics' bodies, and who have an unmitigated god complex to boot are working alongside us. It would make sense that the higher ups would want to downplay the Leviathans, and the concocted story about the Collectors being freed from thralldom would make for a good morale boost. 

 

 

This might all be head cannon, but consider how the Awakened Collector never speaks, never calls out in pain when shot, etc. Also, their heavy melee is a direct copy of Harbinger's Assuming Direct Control animation. I don't think that the Collectors are free from the shackles of Reaper oppression, and now fight for the memory of the lost Prothean empire; I think that these meat puppets have merely obtained a new puppet master.

[Arisugawa]

I know this is off topic, but I always took the Awakened Collector's description as Alliance/Council propaganda for the enlisted troops as they brought the Leviathans into the war. I mean, they wouldn't exactly want to let everyone know that the very beings responsible for the creation of the Reapers, and who are quite capable of seizing control of any nearby organics' bodies, and who have an unmitigated god complex to boot are working alongside us. It would make sense that the higher ups would want to downplay the Leviathans, and the concocted story about the Collectors being freed from thralldom would make for a good morale boost. 

 

 

This might all be head cannon, but consider how the Awakened Collector never speaks, never calls out in pain when shot, etc. Also, their heavy melee is a direct copy of Harbinger's Assuming Direct Control animation. I don't think that the Collectors are free from the shackles of Reaper oppression, and now fight for the memory of the lost Prothean empire; I think that these meat puppets have merely obtained a new puppet master.

 

I don't consider any of the multiplayer characters canon, but especially the AIU and the Awakened Collector. 

 

There's nothing within the Collector to awaken. It's a facsimile of a Prothean, either a husk (doubtful the organic tissue of a husk would survive 50,000 years even with reaper modification) or an artificial construct created generations upon generations after the Prothean extinction. If it even has an organic mind, it would be lost ages ago (husk) or would have no connection to any Prothean history (construct).

 

Mordin's description of the Collectors in Mass Effect 2 essentially sums this up.

 

"Cloned protheans lost intelligence over several cloned generations. Cybernetic augmentation widespread afterward. As protheans failed, reapers added tech to compensate. Mental capacity almost gone, replaced by overworked sensory input. Transfers, transmitting data to masters.  No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul, replaced by tech. Whatever they were, gone forever."

 

EDI confirms this earlier during the Collector ship mission.

 

"These are no longer protheans, Shepard. Their genes show distinct signs of extensive genetic rewrite. The reapers have repurposed them to suit their needs...there are signs of extreme alteration. Three fewer chromosomes, reduced hetero-chromatin structure. Elimination of superfluous junk sequences."

 

it's there because fans demanded it, because the MP team begged the writers to allow them to do it, and the writers eventually caved and let them as part of the final expansion. But there's nothing to awaken. There's no memory to be triggered, no personality to be recovered. It's not as though all of this was held just below the surface waiting for a control signal to be taken offline. These are constructs, and nothing more.

[Vortex13]

I don't consider any of the multiplayer characters canon, but especially the AIU and the Awakened Collector. 

 

There's nothing within the Collector to awaken. It's a facsimile of a Prothean, either a husk (doubtful the organic tissue of a husk would survive 50,000 years even with reaper modification) or an artificial construct created generations upon generations after the Prothean extinction. If it even has an organic mind, it would be lost ages ago (husk) or would have no connection to any Prothean history (construct).

 

Mordin's description of the Collectors in Mass Effect 2 essentially sums this up.

 

"Cloned protheans lost intelligence over several cloned generations. Cybernetic augmentation widespread afterward. As protheans failed, reapers added tech to compensate. Mental capacity almost gone, replaced by overworked sensory input. Transfers, transmitting data to masters.  No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul, replaced by tech. Whatever they were, gone forever."

 

EDI confirms this earlier during the Collector ship mission.

 

"These are no longer protheans, Shepard. Their genes show distinct signs of extensive genetic rewrite. The reapers have repurposed them to suit their needs...there are signs of extreme alteration. Three fewer chromosomes, reduced hetero-chromatin structure. Elimination of superfluous junk sequences."

 

it's there because fans demanded it, because the MP team begged the writers to allow them to do it, and the writers eventually caved and let them as part of the final expansion. But there's nothing to awaken. There's no memory to be triggered, no personality to be recovered. It's not as though all of this was held just below the surface waiting for a control signal to be taken offline. These are constructs, and nothing more.

 

 

I agree that the Awakened Collectors are nothing more than a special forces version of your standard Reaper husk, but I still see them as being part of the overall cannon.

 

Their description makes sense if you look at as a way to try and build morale for the ground troops, as well as deflection. Let the troops think that indoctrination can be beaten, let them think that these new forces are the proud warriors of the last cycle, come to help us fight the Reaper invasion. Don't let them realize that these new forces are just bio-mechanical zombies being controlled by a species that can quite literally mind rape you if they wanted.

 

 

The AIU is a little harder to swallow granted, but if the galaxy is willing to work with AIs in the form of the Geth it would make sense that they would want to bring more forces to bear against the Reaper advance. EDI has proven her capabilities to the Alliance so a commission of more synthetics like her would make sense. Why they would choose the fembot chassis though is beyond me (and something that I just chalk up to fan service). Maybe the Alliance intended that the AIU could provide other forms of 'morale boosting' off the battlefield. 

[Jaxson]

Just completed ME2 yesterday, and this choice was one that annoyed me.

I like to think from Shepherd's PoV (mine is pretty much full paragon), and the way I see it - the Reapers are coming, and at this point in time the other galaxy species almost certainly don't have the means to stop them. They had enough trouble with Sovereign and the Collectors, let alone a full reaper army. So the options are basically destroy the base and just hope that an answer pops out somewhere else, or keep the base and at least investigate it to some degree.

Basically, both options involved risk. However, one option decided to take a risk on the future, and hope that you ultimately suffer some good fortune and find an alternate solution. The other option takes a risk on handing the base over to Cerberus - but essentially you're taking a risk on a present possibility, rather than a future that you have no idea about. IMO, the decision to destroy or preserve shouldn't have rewarded paragon or renegade points, because as a player with a paragon mindset preserving it seemed to be a tough-but-honorable decision for the galaxy's future, rather than letting fear make Shepherd risk it all on a totally unknown future.

As for the indoctrination risk? While still untrustworthy, Cerberus is a company that is more equipped to try and prevent it than others. The last thing the Illusive Man wants is for anyone involved to be indoctrinated, so you can at least be sure that he'd take whatever precautions he could to nip it in the bud (remote monitoring of those in contact with the base would seem like a simple solution, to watch for signs of behavioral change). And should indoctrination occur and the base ultimately needs to be destroyed because it's too dangerous to research - my Shep would undertake the responsibility himself.

Ultimately, it just seemed a bit weak that they seemed to frame preserving the base as such a dangerous alternative to destroying it, when destroying it means losing all that technology that could potentially have a major impact in the coming Reaper war.

[CosmicGnosis]

Another year, another playthrough, and I'll probably never get over this decision. If only the crew didn't universally condemn your choice to keep the base post-credits. Some of them actually contradict themselves! 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

"This place is an abomination. I will not let fear compromise who I am."

 

Clearly the slant in the series was that advanced technology that we don't understand was evil. Nothing good ever comes from Reaper tech.... 

 

Kind of reminds me of the Romans in Judea. What have the Romans ever done for us?

 

[Midnight Bliss]

The Human Reaper was an abomination and I never regretted destroying it and blowing the Collector Base to smithereens.

 

in ME3 you should have had no war assert for that choice though, and the heart should have just been something the Illusive Man got from somewhere else. The choice in ME2 was a good one, it's consequence in 3 was the problem.

 

 

What correlation is there between destroying/saving the base and the virmire survivor?

It changes some dialogue, makes it harder for them to trust you, and gives a pretty big demerit for the showdown I believe.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Bla blah "without sacrificing the soul of our species." *blindly follows starchild's orders* Shepard is a damn hypocrite.

[Xisuthros]

I don't know if I'm interpreting it wrong, but I thought Shepard's reasoning for destroying the base was mostly based on Cerberus' shitty track record with advanced technology, their pro-human ideology, and Paragon Shep's general dislike of them. Basically, whether accidentally or on purpose, Cerberus is going to do more terrible stuff with the base's tech, so it's best to blow it up. The whole "their technology was gained through horrific means" argument is still present, but not the main motivation behind the decision.

[Arisugawa]

Maybe im just being silly here but...the Collector Base contains Reaper tech and Reaper tech indoctrinates people. Better to just get rid of it.

 

This.

 

This is why I never allowed it to be given to Cerberus. EVEN if I believed the Illusive Man would use it to save humanity, experiences with Reaper technology, up to and including things like the Derelict Reaper and Object Rho, convinced my Shepard that the risk of Indoctrination was too great.