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Bioware: Shepherding the audience


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#1
C0uncil0rTev0s

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So much heated discussions lately so I believe I have to point out some things here. By doing so I hope to save Bioware developer team from unnecessary criticism. Let's start with the basics.

 

Every human activity in this mortal world can be classified as a production and consumption. And in order to consume something this very 'something' has to be produced first. So production is no doubt a primary here, yet it is bound to consumption a lot.

 

Let's say there was Vincent van Gogh, brilliant artist and a painter. He was producing excellent works that were awesome in means of the production quality, but those lacked the consumers. People did not need that type of art... Not really, not yet. But in due time he became famous and his works began being pricey. Unfortunately, most of that time counts from his death and on.

 

Then let's say there was Bioware developer team, shining stars of the game development. They were producing excellent games that were awesome in the production quality, but those lacked the consumers - the large audience to sell games to. People did not need that type of art... Not really, not yet. World was playing other RPG games that were present on the market, and until 2007 Bioware releases Mass Effect there wasn't much room to success.

 

Wherever you like it or not, Mass Effect was a huge success. The game itself caught the attention of the large audience, including the pure consumers that aren't good in anything but consuming. And that audience gradually overcame the efforts of the creative part of the Community, simple as this. Yes, they have outnumbered us. Numbers now mean cash so to the executives they mean more.

 

Consumers can't build anything around them by themselves, consumers can't into modding stuff or anything higher than casual gaming. And as they are the main focus of the industry and, unfortunately, Bioware it's plain stupid for developers to listen to the voice of reason. Our reason.

 

So I suggest to leave all attempts to change the game we already have, the DA:I, in the means of large changes. Large ones won't be accepted by the main purely consumer audience. Let's focus on small yet interesting inventions. Something that won't require extensive thinking to be used.

 

Arguing with consumers won't help, either. Much of the 'poison' everyone speaks here is those debates between the creative members of the Community (that aren't just used to be casted aside) and the new masters of the place (Sims casual players). If we are to get anywhere we have to find something we agree on and work together in building suggestions.

 

And if we can't get along well there are only two options left: either to leave the franchise and the developer or to become Tranquil a typical consumer, too. God blessed Octarin found the solution for the first option (indie gaming like Divinity: OS) ... and the second one I hate so much that I won't be bothered getting into details.

 

So this is it, folks. Time to choose.

 

As for me, I'll try to stick around some more gathering and publishing ideas for Multiplayer and the next game. Not a fan of getting along with fangirls, but I've put too much effort into those ideas to simply give up. And there's a side Saga project I want to complete before parting ways... So not saying goodbye.


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#2
SporkFu

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Wait. Just to clarify, are you saying that Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, Knights of the Old Republic, and even Neverwinter Nights weren't successes? 



#3
C0uncil0rTev0s

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Wait. Just to clarify, are you saying that Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, Knights of the Old Republic, and even Neverwinter Nights weren't successes? 

Not in means of being sold :)



#4
Saphiron123

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Dragon age is a game built largely on honoring the decisions we've made in the past, which is why I'm sad to see them throw out so many f the concepts that made it great because EA thinks we're all too dumb to comprehend things like tactics, attribute points, etc.

Origins had the right tone, it was a great game with heavy choices and real drama, and had tons of substance. DAI has some of that still, but it's buried inf etch quests and an attempt to be skyrim. Bioware is focusing more on making giant landscapes with quests on discarded notes then on seeing our past chocies and our interactions with our companions come to life.

I want to believe they'll give us the experience we've come to expect from them, but DAi is nothing like dragon age, or mass effect, or other bioware titles... it's dumbed down, trying to be more like an MMO then a real story. Imagine if all their resources went into the story, into more cutscenes and dialogue.

Crafting is cool, I like that, I hate that I have no control over my attributes and building my characters, I hate that tactics are gone now and I can't tell my idiot mage not to cats barrier 30 seconds before the fight begins, or Varrick not to use his backflip dodge attack before he gets in danger so he died every single fight.

I hate how they took out half the magic in the game, basics like fireball are just gone. Favorites like mass paralysis.

I hate how the npc enemies who used to have unique equipment and faces are just clones of one another, mobs with flying books and 3 magic spells, nothing dynamic or unexpected. And how 80% of the bosses in the game (who in origins would have gotten an introductory cutscene) are so generic I don't even relaize they're bosses until they're half dead.

I wish they'd remember who they are as a company, and I stay because I hope they will before it's all said and done. Inquisition could still be great, and I have to voice my opinion, because I love dragon age, and I hate to see it fall apart... maybe everyone wants a skyrim clone, i don't know, but they can make a new IP for that, they don't have to destroy the experience of DAO and DA2 (which actually is pretty awesome if you can ignore the flawed enemy waves and MANY recycled maps).

Hell, I miss the fact they completely removed cities from the game. Redcliff is the only town with mroe then 10 people in it, the dalish clan is 5... for a game about characters, I hate that they didn't put any in their very large maps.

Hoping for some wonderful dlc, because outside of the main story, the substance that makes dragon age special, is just absent.


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#5
SporkFu

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Not in means of being sold :)

Okay, but... I just looked up Bioware games on wikipedia 

 

"Baldur's Gate sold more than two million copies after its release, nearly matching the sales of Diablo."
 
"Baldur's Gate II sold two million copies, matching the sales of the first game in the series. "
 
"It sold 250,000 copies in the first four days of its release, making Knights of the Old Republic the fastest-selling Xbox title at the time of its release."
 
For comparison's sake, (according to the wikipedia article): "In the first six weeks of release Mass Effect sold 1.6 million copies. "
 
Couldn't see numbers for NWN or Jade Empire, but I dunno if you can safely say they weren't successful until Mass Effect. :)

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#6
C0uncil0rTev0s

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Okay, but... I just looked up Bioware games on wikipedia 

 

"Baldur's Gate sold more than two million copies after its release, nearly matching the sales of Diablo."
 
"Baldur's Gate II sold two million copies, matching the sales of the first game in the series. "
 
"It sold 250,000 copies in the first four days of its release, making Knights of the Old Republic the fastest-selling Xbox title at the time of its release."
 
"For comparison's sake, (according to the wikipedia article): In the first six weeks of release Mass Effect sold 1.6 million copies. "
 
Couldn't see numbers for NWN or Jade Empire, but I dunno if you can safely say they weren't successful until Mass Effect. :)

 

Sigh
https://en.wikipedia...iki/Mass_Effect  As of July 5th, 2014, the Mass Effect Series has sold a total of 14 million units.

http://en.wikipedia....elling_PC_games  NWN - 2 million copies. Total.



#7
SporkFu

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:lol: Sigh?

 

Okay look, your claim was that Bio wasn't successful until Mass Effect. I think they were, and those numbers aren't too shabby for RPGs from the late 90s/early 2000s, going up against the Diablo games, and who knows what else.

 

I never claimed they haven't been successful since ME. :) 


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#8
C0uncil0rTev0s

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:lol: Sigh?

 

Okay look, your claim was that Bio wasn't successful until Mass Effect. I think they were, and those numbers aren't too shabby for RPGs from the late 90s/early 2000s, going up against the Diablo games, and who knows what else.

 

I never claimed they haven't been successful since ME. :)

Too shabby?..
You don't get it, friend. Let's read the second sentence there: "The game itself caught the attention of the large audience, including the pure consumers that aren't good in anything but consuming"

 

I'm not saying that those numbers were too shabby. I'm saying that becoming increasingly successive after ME Bioware has changed its audience. To the worse.



#9
SporkFu

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Got it. Thanks for clarifying. 


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#10
papercut_ninja

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Too shabby?..
You don't get it, friend. Let's read the second sentence there: "The game itself caught the attention of the large audience, including the pure consumers that aren't good in anything but consuming"

 

I'm not saying that those numbers were too shabby. I'm saying that becoming increasingly successive after ME Bioware has changed its audience. To the worse.

 

...given that the subjective opinion of the wider majority is always by default worse than the subjective opinion of an elitist minority...

 

On the other hand a utilitarian principle would conclude that more happiness to a greater amount of people is by default better...


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#11
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...given that the subjective opinion of the wider majority is always by default worse than the subjective opinion of an elitist minority...

 

On the other hand a utilitarian principle would conclude that more happiness to a greater amount of people is by default better...

 

That's why I'm not raging about it. Everything EA/Bioware executives have decided is logically correct and understandable. Now it's a problem of extended socialization of the people you've painted as 'elitist minority'. We have either to deal with the reality or leave it for something that suits us better (indie gaming).

 

However I don't feel comfortable with being socialized with this type of society, so... I'd take my freedom for not going that way.



#12
AlanC9

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"Creative members of the community"?

#13
C0uncil0rTev0s

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"Creative members of the community"?

Ones that can come with suggestions above 'let me bang this character' and 'game is perfectly fine, everything other is a blasphemy'.

You're not counted in that in my books. No offence.


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#14
papercut_ninja

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That's why I'm not raging about it. Everything EA/Bioware executives have decided is logically correct and understandable. Now it's a problem of extended socialization of the people you've painted as 'elitist minority'. We have either to deal with the reality or leave it for something that suits us better (indie gaming).

 

However I don't feel comfortable with being socialized with this type of society, so... I'd take my freedom for not going that way.

 

...however, wider audience and sales may also attract more talent, the best writers are currently going to tv because that is where the greatest market is, if gaming can further push and challenge other media, then talented writers and producers will drift over to gaming, resulting in better quality overall...



#15
C0uncil0rTev0s

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...however, wider audience and sales may also attract more talent, the best writers are currently going to tv because that is where the greatest market is, if gaming can further push and challenge other media, then talented writers and producers will drift over to gaming, resulting in better quality overall...

Those talents won't be needed until the industry (or at least publisher) focus is changed from appeasing consumers to teaching them being creative. And those talents will just leave the gaming production, like they did recently (just look at the Bioware, sigh).



#16
papercut_ninja

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Those talents won't be needed until the industry (or at least publisher) focus is changed from appeasing consumers to teaching them being creative. And those talents will just leave the gaming production, like they did recently (just look at the Bioware, sigh).

 

The best thing to do is to support the upstarts...Shadowrun, D:OS and these other projects can make a serious impact, DA:I was already way too far into development to have time to react to these trends, but I am sure developers will be looking at these success stories for future projects.


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#17
b10d1v

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Glad to see you back in action! :)



#18
C0uncil0rTev0s

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The best thing to do is to support the upstarts...Shadowrun, D:OS and these other projects can make a serious impact, DA:I was already way too far into development to have time to react to these trends, but I am sure developers will be looking at these success stories for future projects.

Call me paranoid. They won't.


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#19
Andraste_Reborn

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Arguing with consumers won't help, either. Much of the 'poison' everyone speaks here is those debates between the creative members of the Community (that aren't just used to be casted aside) and the new masters of the place (Sims casual players).

 

I don't think insulting the community is ever a good way to start a discussion within it.

 

(Is there any point saying that I've never played a Sims game for more than ten minutes or so? Or that I have lots and lots of suggestions for how the next DA game could be improved?)


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#20
C0uncil0rTev0s

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I don't think insulting the community is ever a good way to start a discussion within it.

 

(Is there any point saying that I've never played a Sims game for more than ten minutes or so? Or that I have lots and lots of suggestions for how the next DA game could be improved?)

How can you call that insulting? Some gamers are hardcore ones, some are casuals. We're two sides of the same coin.

Or you're the female person who gets offended being called a woman?


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#21
SofaJockey

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I don't think insulting the community is ever a good way to start a discussion within it.

 

I don't think this was ever a discussion, it was more of a monologue :D.


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#22
papercut_ninja

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Edit

 

Removed for being non-constructive...



#23
Guest_Donkson_*

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So much heated discussions lately so I believe I have to point out some things here. By doing so I hope to save Bioware developer team from unnecessary criticism. Let's start with the basics.
 
Every human activity in this mortal world can be classified as a production and consumption. And in order to consume something this very 'something' has to be produced first. So production is no doubt a primary here, yet it is bound to consumption a lot.
 
Let's say there was Vincent van Gogh, brilliant artist and a painter. He was producing excellent works that were awesome in means of the production quality, but those lacked the consumers. People did not need that type of art... Not really, not yet. But in due time he became famous and his works began being pricey. Unfortunately, most of that time counts from his death and on.
 
Then let's say there was Bioware developer team, shining stars of the game development. They were producing excellent games that were awesome in the production quality, but those lacked the consumers - the large audience to sell games to. People did not need that type of art... Not really, not yet. World was playing other RPG games that were present on the market, and until 2007 Bioware releases Mass Effect there wasn't much room to success.
 
Wherever you like it or not, Mass Effect was a huge success. The game itself caught the attention of the large audience, including the pure consumers that aren't good in anything but consuming. And that audience gradually overcame the efforts of the creative part of the Community, simple as this. Yes, they have outnumbered us. Numbers now mean cash so to the executives they mean more.
 
Consumers can't build anything around them by themselves, consumers can't into modding stuff or anything higher than casual gaming. And as they are the main focus of the industry and, unfortunately, Bioware it's plain stupid for developers to listen to the voice of reason. Our reason.
 
So I suggest to leave all attempts to change the game we already have, the DA:I, in the means of large changes. Large ones won't be accepted by the main purely consumer audience. Let's focus on small yet interesting inventions. Something that won't require extensive thinking to be used.
 
Arguing with consumers won't help, either. Much of the 'poison' everyone speaks here is those debates between the creative members of the Community (that aren't just used to be casted aside) and the new masters of the place (Sims casual players). If we are to get anywhere we have to find something we agree on and work together in building suggestions.
 
And if we can't get along well there are only two options left: either to leave the franchise and the developer or to become Tranquil a typical consumer, too. God blessed Octarin found the solution for the first option (indie gaming like Divinity: OS) ... and the second one I hate so much that I won't be bothered getting into details.
 
So this is it, folks. Time to choose.
 
As for me, I'll try to stick around some more gathering and publishing ideas for Multiplayer and the next game. Not a fan of getting along with fangirls, but I've put too much effort into those ideas to simply give up. And there's a side Saga project I want to complete before parting ways... So not saying goodbye.


Excellent post.

Great points.

Agree completely however... nothing will change. Heated discussions will continue.. it is, after all, human nature to squabble.

P.S hurry up with that Saga!
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#24
Andraste_Reborn

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How can you call that insulting? Some gamers are hardcore ones, some are casuals. We're two sides of the same coin.

 

Sure, some people are casual gamers. Nothing wrong with that. What I found insulting was your stack of unwarranted assumptions. To whit:

 

1)  The 'new masters' of the forum (whatever that's meant to mean) are casual gamers.

 

2) All casual gamers like The Sims.

 

3) They're not 'creative'.

 

Do you have any evidence for any of that?


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#25
papercut_ninja

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Sure, some people are casual gamers. Nothing wrong with that. What I found insulting was your stack of unwarranted assumptions. To whit:

 

1)  The 'new masters' of the forum (whatever that's meant to mean) are casual gamers.

 

2) All casual gamers like The Sims.

 

3) They're not 'creative'.

 

Do you have any evidence for any of that?

 

Apparently defeatist attitude is 'creative' now...

 

tumblr_lubs6qbJo31qzr0lro1_500.gif


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