121 réponses à ce sujet

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Sure, some people are casual gamers. Nothing wrong with that. What I found insulting was your stack of unwarranted assumptions. To whit:

 

1)  The 'new masters' of the forum (whatever that's meant to mean) are casual gamers.

 

2) All casual gamers like The Sims.

 

3) They're not 'creative'.

 

Do you have any evidence for any of that?

 

1) Easy. Look at all the people coming up with unwarranted assumptions about how great roleplaying and story development in DA:I is.

 

No valid choices on how to build Inquisition? Plot holes, derailing the whole narrative from a story to freaking comic show? Unexplained things, breaking the existent lore? These things don't matter a penny for the casual gamers. They can throw it all away, lean back and say: 'Nevertheless I liked the story'.

 

Well, good. Have it your way, but be named accordingly.

 

2. 'The Sims' is used here as a reference and I'm not surprized you didn't get it. As you're a casual gamer as well.

 

What is 'The Sims' videogame? It is a life simulator with completing housework, doing mundane things like washing the dishes and throwing parties. You can even (wow!) build and customize your house. You can advance relationships. You can bang, okay?

 

Dragon Age, however, was more than that. It had a story we were forced to complete, a beginning and an end. Really frightening yet classical dragon form enemy, commanding the darkspawn hordes. An enemy you shouldn't be understanding to defeat, but the game granted you insight into the matters.

 

DA:I is much closer to Sims and other games in that 'Sims' genre than to any of the previous games in a franchise. And again, it is bad only for the non-casual gamers. Casuals are fine with it. And it's okay, feel free to consume what you get - but don't resist being called what you are.

 

3. Easiest thing ever asked me to do. Please, link any constructive suggestions thread made by a casual with anything bigger than 'make more content' plea.

 

Oh, you can't? It's because casuals aren't interested in actual game mechanics. And I state it again, it's fine. It's what you are. It isn't good, it isn't bad, it's different from what I am. From what we are.

[ThreeF]

Call it what you like, but the fact is that you want a game with specific rules and gameplay and other players don't care for them and/or have no problem to adapt to new elements, this does not makes you a special creative snowflake nor it makes the games you like superior to other, you just want a different and very specific type of game.

[papercut_ninja]

3. Easiest thing ever asked me to do. Please, link any constructive suggestions thread made by a casual with anything bigger than 'make more content' plea.

 

Oh, you can't? It's because casuals aren't interested in actual game mechanics. And I state it again, it's fine. It's what you are. It isn't good, it isn't bad, it's different from what I am. From what we are.

 

As opposed to all the 'hardcore' fans who want...

 

..brothels and boobs...

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

As opposed to all the 'hardcore' fans who want...

 

..brothels and boobs...

 

So decisive, aren't you? I'll speak for myself.

[SofaJockey]

Can I just check what people think 'casual gamer' means?

 

I think it means not being consumed by what used to be called 'hardcore RPG', I did that back in the day and am tired of it frankly.

Abandoning messing about with attribute points was a good step in my opinion (you can wear that armour when you have 46 strength, not 44 weakling!)

 

I don't think casual means uninterested, I've put in hundreds of hours into DAI (and a few on the forum).

So I'm highly invested, care little for the things the 'hardcore gamers' are upset about having lost and am having a ball with DAI.

 

Am I a casual gamer or not?

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Call it what you like, but the fact is that you want a game with specific rules and gameplay and other players don't care for them and/or have no problem to adapt to new elements, this does not makes you a special snowflake nor that it makes the games you like superior to other, you just want a different and very specific type of game.

 

'Special snowflake'? I like the word, thanks.

As for the rest - I was promised "a game with specific rules and gameplay" by the developers, judging from the PR and the developer diaries. And I guess that the fact that I want the game I was promised makes me somewhat s 'special snowflake' among the casual players that weren't expecting anything but the 'next Bioware romance game'.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Can I just check what people think 'casual gamer' means?

 

I think it means not being consumed by what used to be called 'hardcore RPG', I did that back in the day and am tired of it frankly.

Abandoning messing about with attribute points was a good step in my opinion (you can wear that armour when you have 46 strength, not 44 weakling!)

 

I don't think casual means uninterested, I've put in hundreds of hours into DAI (and a few on the forum).

So I'm highly invested, care little for the things the 'hardcore gamers' are upset about having lost and am having a ball with DAI.

 

Am I a casual gamer or not?

 

You're perfectly right. Being casual RPG gamer is being uninterested in things that aren't counted a part of hardcore RPG gaming.

Uninterested in stats, in really different classes, in character building and complicated party-based tactical combat. Uninterested in making the choices fire back at you later in the plot, uninterested in so many things that are really important for 'hardcore RPG gamers'.

 

It isn't bad. It isn't good. It's different.

 

But as different we are we don't share a goal to pursue, you see? And the last part of my message is clear on that. I and other people who consider themselves 'hardcore RPG gamers' should quit arguing with casuals, find something we can agree on and work for it. Or quit.

 

P.S. You're a casual gamer, too.

[ThreeF]

 

I think it means not being consumed by what used to be called 'hardcore RPG

This hardcore RPG was never well implemented into CRPG games, like ever. Dice mechanics in NWN were terrible, the abundance of classless and the ability to multicast to  infinity rendered them pointless from role-playing perspective.

 

 

'Special snowflake'? I like the word, thanks.

It's not you wanting a specific game that makes you a snob, it's the way to express your concerns. You wanted/was expecting a different game, that's fine, you don't need to express your frustration by belittling others.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

It's not you wanting a specific game that makes you a snob, it's the way to express your concerns. You wanted/was expecting a different game, that's fine, you don't need express your frustration by belittling others.

 

Okay, do you understand why I don't want to discuss it anymore? Did you read the OP to the very end?
Or you're trying to implement some generic 'be tolerant' morals on me?..

[papercut_ninja]

Okay, do you understand why I don't want to discuss it anymore? Did you read the OP to the very end?
Or you're trying to implement some generic 'be tolerant' morals on me?..

 

Really...

 

...you are going all out to post this opening message because you don't want attention and a discussion?

 

The BSN equivavalent of sharing a picture of cutting yourself and saying "just leeeeeave me alone...you wouldn't understand!"

[ThreeF]

Okay, do you understand why I don't want to discuss it anymore? Did you read the OP to the very end?
Or you're trying to implement some generic 'be tolerant' morals on me?..

I'm trying to tell you that if you want a discussion or even  a simple conversation you must pay attention to how you construct your sentences in order for your opinion to carry value, morality has nothing to do with this. You basically are doing yourself a disservice. If you want to be actually heard insulting people is the wrong way to go about it, once insulted nobody will be willing to hear you out.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Really...

 

...you are going all out to post this opening message because you don't want attention and a discussion?

 

The BSN equivavalent of sharing a picture of cutting yourself and saying "just leave me alone..."

 

Really, I posted opening message to:
1. Help casual gamers understand why 'hardcore' ones are unhappy;

2. Help 'hardcore gamers' to understand why things won't change to better;

3. Help 'hardcore gamers' to find a solution to their disgust over DA:I and be constructive.

 

You aren't really into reading, are you?

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

I'm trying to tell you that if you want a discussion or even  a simple conversation you must pay attention to how you construct your sentences in order for your opinion to carry value, morality has nothing to do with this. You basically are doing yourself a disservice.

I see it as 'be nice' issue. I have to be nice to everyone in order for my opinion to carry value for casual gamers? No, I don't.

 

I'm providing the information that may be used by sane people who consider themselves casual gamers in a most neutral sentences I can. If in my books casual gamers are a reason why we don't have the Dragon Age game in DA:I ... Well, ****.

 

I'm fine with calling white things white and black things black. Not because white is good and black is bad. Both are just colours. Both are good for their own purposes.

[papercut_ninja]

Really, I posted opening message to:
1. Help casual gamers understand why 'hardcore' ones are unhappy;

2. Help 'hardcore gamers' to understand why things won't change to better;

3. Help 'hardcore gamers' to find a solution to their disgust over DA:I and be constructive.

 

You aren't really into reading, are you?

 

...right...the tone and implications that everyone who enjoyed DA:I are not 'creative', cannot build anything, contribute to anything and that becoming 'casual' is comparable to becoming a tranquil...that surely wasn't a completely transparent attempt to raise some controversy and get some fangirls to jump on your case...

[ThreeF]

I see it as 'be nice' issue. I have to be nice to everyone in order for my opinion to carry value for casual gamers? No, I don't.

"basic communication skills" is what I would call it, but whatever. Just don't act so surprised when people call you on it and are not willing to listen to what you have to say, it's not them, it's you.

[DanteYoda]

Guilty.

Same..

 

But I wanted some core changes to the game, i do not think the game is bad in a whole, i think some of the design mechanics were atrocious at least on PC with a keyboard and mouse, can other people enjoy how it is now, yes... could it be far far better hell yes..

 

No attributes, skill and potion limits, tactical camera combat etc were all horrible ideas, why these things were added/removed is beyond me, i do not think they will get changed at least in this Dragon Age..

 

The lack of bewbs and a$$ is a far cry from what really needs to be added..

 

I wont even get into the bugs, game stutter fps issues and crashing that customers are still experiencing (me included)..

 

It has nothing to do with casual or hardcore gamers, it has to do with upset customers...

[SofaJockey]

You're perfectly right. Being casual RPG gamer is being uninterested in things that aren't counted a part of hardcore RPG gaming.

Uninterested in stats, in really different classes, in character building and complicated party-based tactical combat. Uninterested in making the choices fire back at you later in the plot, uninterested in so many things that are really important for 'hardcore RPG gamers'.

 

It isn't bad. It isn't good. It's different.

 

But as different we are we don't share a goal to pursue, you see? And the last part of my message is clear on that. I and other people who consider themselves 'hardcore RPG gamers' should quit arguing with casuals, find something we can agree on and work for it. Or quit.

 

P.S. You're a casual gamer, too.

 

Interesting, thanks for that.

 

But there is a dilemma because whilst I am uninterested in Attribute points, which I see as a 'under the hood' mechanic,

 

I am very interested in character builds, tactical decisions for combat, interested in what choices lead (for example) to the choice of Divine or how may gameplay as Qunari or Elf affect my experience, and all of those things I am finding in DAI at the level I require them.

 

The multiplayer I find particularly interesting, as like ME3, getting better at multiplayer meant I got better at single player combat.

I abandoned must first 'Hard' playthrough. My 4th playthrough is again on 'Hard' difficulty and I am tearing it up.

 

Anyway, I can see from other posts that you were not particularly seeking a discussion, but were leaving more of a 'positioning statement'
along the lines:

• Accept DA is now casual and play with the casuals, or
• Do something else.

You may have made the point for effect, but I can see a full and detailed distribution of opinions and interests between the binary points:

• Hardcore gamer, and
• Casual

There are people at all points in between.

All 'casuals' are not simply here to mash 'hit' on casual and bang the blonde chick... 

[papercut_ninja]

You may have made the point for effect, but I can see a full and detailed distribution of opinions and interests between the binary points:

• Hardcore gamer, and
• Casual

There are people at all points in between.

All 'casuals' are not simply here to mash 'hit' on casual and bang the blonde chick... 

 

...because they are by no means mutually exclusive...just because you like underground hiphop and house, doesn't meant that you cannot enjoy pop music as well...

[Andraste_Reborn]

And it's okay, feel free to consume what you get - but don't resist being called what you are.

 

There's nothing wrong with being a casual gamer. Being a casual gamer is fine. However.

 

I've played the Dragon Age games for thousands of hours. Nine playthroughs of Origins, eight of Dragon Age 2. (Only two hundred hours on two runs on Inquisition so far, because I'm trying to pace myself better this time - we've probably got a three year wait until the next one.) Most of that was on Nightmare, and I've killed the Harvester and Malvernis without turning the difficulty down. (The story of how my Hawke accidentally soloed the Malvernis dragon is one of my favourite RPG moments of all time.) I've read the books and comics and watched the anime. I practically live on the forums.

 

That's just Dragon Age. I've actually lost count of how many times I've played Baldur's Gate and its sequel, although I think that's about eight or nine as well. I've played all of BioWare's other CRPGs at least once. That's just BioWare - I actually started my CRPG obsession with Blade of Destiny, and spent my teenage years with the Northlands Trilogy. (I still have flashbacks about that final dungeon in Shadows Over Riva.) Not to mention all the rest - the other Infinity Engine games, Drakensang, VtMB, Arcanum, Shadowrun, Blackguards ... I'm probably forgetting a few. Backed Torment, Pillars of Eternity and Shadowrun: Hong Kong on Kickstarter and am eagerly awaiting all three. Oh, and I'm not generally much of an MMO person, but I'm a Grand Master lifetime member of The Secret World and play that whenever new content comes out for it. Messed around a bit in Guild Wars 2 but I'm not very committed to that.

 

That's just the Western CRPGs. JRPGs aren't usually my bag, but I make an exception for Pokemon - I've got about fifty of the critters, all bred to have favorable natures and  EV trained and levelled up to 100. Almost filled the Pokedex, too, just missing a couple of event legendaries. (If anyone out there has a spare Manaphy or Shaymin ...) My other favourite Japanese game is The World Ends With You, love the combat system and the story and characters are some of my favourites.  I'm also a huge fan of adventure games - started out with Maniac Mansion, moved on to the LucasArts classics and Tex Murphy, still playing the newer stuff today. I like the occasional strategy game. Sometimes I even break out of my comfort zone altogether and try something actiony like Assassin's Creed.

 

When I'm not at my computer, I sometimes manage to actually leave the house. I'm in a tabletop RPG group that meets every week and plays a lot of different stuff - everthing from D&D and World Of Darkness to Big Eyes, Small Mouth and homebrew systems. I used to run a tabletop Dragon Age campaign for them, and I'm working on another one right now. Sometimes we LARP or play board games and card games, and every year we go to Conquest and play freeforms. Last year, my three best friends and I went to PAX Australia in costume and spent a long weekend doing nothing but gaming, talking about gaming, going to panels about gaming, and complaining about how expensive the food was. (A traditional activity at gaming conventions!)

 

If your definition of 'casual gamer' includes me, I think it might need a little work.

[Jerome620]

Those talents won't be needed until the industry (or at least publisher) focus is changed from appeasing consumers to teaching them being creative. And those talents will just leave the gaming production, like they did recently (just look at the Bioware, sigh).

 

To further illustrate this point. For those that don't already know this, most (or possibly all) of the people that made Blizzard Entertainment great, left years ago; and it shows. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to get the Blizzard hate train rolling. They still make good games. Although, I think most of us can agree Diablo 3 release was a catastrophe. They have since made leaps and bounds in improvements to it. Point being, Blizzard just isn't what it use to be. I feel like the same thing is happening here with Bioware. As the OP has pointed out, once they crossed the threshold of success with the mainstream audience, they began to alienate their core audience that made them great in the first place. Quantity over quality, as it were.

[ThreeF]

...because they are by no means mutually exclusive...just because you like underground hiphop and house, doesn't meant that you cannot enjoy pop music as well...

Exactly so, I can understand the frustration when you see your favourite type of the game or even perhaps the only type of the game you enjoy not being produced anymore, but that doesn't make the games you are not willing to play bad games or even casual games (whatever that means).

 

My favorite type of games is TRPG, this genre is a dying breed if it's not dead already. I miss things like Tactics Ogre, Final Fantasy Tactics and Advance Wars, nobody makes games like this anymore. (The newer fire emblem was very weak)

 

 

 As the OP has pointed out, once they crossed the threshold of success with the mainstream audience, they began to alienate their core audience that made them great in the first place. Quantity over quality, as it were.

It's not the success threshold, they can't survive basing their revenue only on the core audience, especially the unadaptive core audience, it's too tiny.

 

edit: also you can say that BW slowly and steadily  creates a niche of their own, it's just not the DnD niche.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Interesting, thanks for that.

 

But there is a dilemma because whilst I am uninterested in Attribute points, which I see as a 'under the hood' mechanic,

 

I am very interested in character builds, tactical decisions for combat, interested in what choices lead (for example) to the choice of Divine or how may gameplay as Qunari or Elf affect my experience, and all of those things I am finding in DAI at the level I require them.

 

The multiplayer I find particularly interesting, as like ME3, getting better at multiplayer meant I got better at single player combat.

I abandoned must first 'Hard' playthrough. My 4th playthrough is again on 'Hard' difficulty and I am tearing it up.

 

Anyway, I can see from other posts that you were not particularly seeking a discussion, but were leaving more of a 'positioning statement'
along the lines:

• Accept DA is now casual and play with the casuals, or
• Do something else.

You may have made the point for effect, but I can see a full and detailed distribution of opinions and interests between the binary points:

• Hardcore gamer, and
• Casual

There are people at all points in between.

All 'casuals' are not simply here to mash 'hit' on casual and bang the blonde chick... 

 

Well. Sane person that isn't a 'hardcore' gamer. Pleasure to meet you. And thanks for your opinion.

 

Why don't make the topic a little bit more abstract?

 

Let's say 'Hardcore' gamers are players that are interested in A, B, C, D features of the game.

Let's say 'Hardcore' gamers understand the E, F, G, H mechanics of the game development.

Let's say 'Hardcore' gamers can contribute into I, J, K, L weak points of DA:I.

 

Casual gamers don't meet some of those because of the lack of experience, involvement or cultural differences. For example, you are not interested in Stats system and you don't understand why it is important, and hence that you can't contribute into Stats system improvement. This makes you 9/12 'Hardcore gamer', but you're still not the one of.

 

This doesn't make you less significant or something. This fact doesn't make your opinion less worthy. This fact just locates your allegiance in the question 'Should next coming Dragon Age games be Dragon Age tactical party-based RPG games or Fantasy Sims'. You're more likely to choose the first in which I'm grateful.

 

Some of the others here can't get into constructive discussion, and that is because they're further than you on that scale from the 'Hardcore gamer' stand.

 

I'm voicing here a statement on how to deal with the whole 'Good Ol' Dragon Age games were better' attitude. It's either you become less 'Hardcore gamer', or you find another developer team and a project to contribute to.

[TBJack]

Okay, so I've been playing Bioware games since Baldur's Gate.  I love messing with stats, building different characters (both in terms of raw mechanics and personality/plot).  I love the fights where every move has to be planned in advance, and where I've had to make a dozen or more attempts before even a Phyrric victory.  I love having an old decision or unexpected plot twist come out of nowhere and hit me like a sledgehammer.  I love being able to do the same (bringing Drizzt to the Amn crypts to fight vampires... then stabbing him in the back once they were almost dead was always a favorite).

 

I have sunk thousands and thousands of hours into these games.

 

I'm a casual player.

 

Not because I don't appreciate the older, more precise mechanics.  Not because I have no ideas for improvement (though I rarely, if ever share them on the forums).  Not because I can't handle or don't want these games to be complicated, robust and improved.

 

I'm a "casual" player because the only difference as far as I've ever seen between casual and hardcore, in any playerbase, is attitude towards the game and other players.

 

Your complaints and ideas are not without merit, but your thinly veiled condescension, hair-splitting and offhand dismissal of other players' intelligence and thoughtfulness do you no credit.