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[Eckswhyzed]

Someone who actually thinks control makes less sense than synthesis?

 

Wow. Samara's insight on humanity is proven right every day.

Heck, Synthesis is my favourite ending and even I'm surprised.

[WizzyWarlock]

After having finished my first playthrough of the series since the Extended Cut, I'm actually not so bothered about the ending anymore, the Extended Cut dialogue with the Catalyst allows Shepard to question things instead of blindly believing everything said. Also, I don't think that last part is actually happening. Copying from the other thread, I really think that last part with the kid is all in Shepard's head, placed there by Harbinger.

Reasons: The AI isn't actually an AI, it's Harbinger. Harbinger is able to do this because the Leviathans could do this, as seen in the DLC. Harbinger is the harvested Leviathan, so it's not hard to believe that it has some of their abilities as well as thoughts and memories. The kid has been seen by Shepard and been in her dreams. Unless by some freak chance the AI is using this image by default, someone or something is in her head and using that image. i.e. Harbinger.

The Catalyst says it's a Reaper, through the use of the word 'We' in its dialogue. It jumped out at me so hard my eyes went wide. First, it says it's controlling the Reapers, that they're its solution, but then goes on, "When fire burns, is it at war? Is it in conflict? Or is it simply doing what it was created to do? We are no different. We harvest your bodies, your knowledge, your creations...". Bad writing? Should it have said The Reapers instead of We? I'm not so sure, especially if you refuse and the kids voice turns to that of a Reaper.

The choices are real, the Crucible really has created more possibilities, but I don't think the location or the supposed AI is real. I think the firing console is real and Harbinger is trying to influence your choice. This especially jumps out at me when you are given the option of Destroy and instead of accepting it as a suitable option, despite having spent the last three games talking about how you want the Reapers destroyed, no matter the cost, Shepard is the one who brings up the question that there must be a better way, not the Catalyst.

I have to say, before anyone jumps in, that this isn't indoctrination. It's no more indoctrination than the Leviathan talking to you beneath the sea is indoctrination. Harbinger is inside your head, but he's only making suggestions and creating arguments, trying to sway your decision. The Catalyst said that the Illusive Man couldn't control the Reapers, because the Reapers controlled him, so obviously there's some sort of 'firewall' against indoctrinated troops using the console.

After the choice, however, I do think if you pick Control or Synthesis that you're going along with what Harbinger wanted and become indoctrinated, hence the reason you never see Shepard's breath and the change in the eyes when those two are chosen. Destroy is Shepard staying the course and dealing with the Reapers whatever the cost, even if that means the cost of her own life.

[Valmar]

Reasons: The AI isn't actually an AI, it's Harbinger. Harbinger is able to do this because the Leviathans could do this, as seen in the DLC. Harbinger is the harvested Leviathan, so it's not hard to believe that it has some of their abilities as well as thoughts and memories. The kid has been seen by Shepard and been in her dreams. Unless by some freak chance the AI is using this image by default, someone or something is in her head and using that image. i.e. Harbinger.
 

 

We've never seen the reapers use such abilities in the past, though. It seems to be exclusive to Leviathan. Not to mention that Leviathan took Shepard to a dream-like world.

 

The Leviathan also confirms the existence of the the Intelligence as an AI.

 

A very easy answer to the "why is it the kid" is the detail that many people tend to overlook: it isn't the kid. Its modified both on a audio and visual level. Shepard makes no mention of it being the kid, despite having done so in similar events in the game (Leviathan, Geth server). There is literally NOTHING that says that its the same kid. Its nothing but fans noticing Bioware reused a the base model of the kid and then jumping to assumptions.

 

The ending was rushed and Bioware reused art assets. Such as the london rubble which is actually on the Citadel. Or any other number of cases where Bioware reused an art asset. The catalyst took the form of a child, sure. Why assume however that it is meant to be THE child from Shepard's dreams? Bioware only has one child model in the entire trilogy. They reuse art assets to cut corners. They rushed out the ending. Other parts of the ending include borrowed art assets. Shepard doesn't mention its the child despite having obviously would. We've never seen the reapers do this before. If it was the child, it would be the child (Leviathan didn't have a weird glowly effect, it looked real).

 

My Conclusion: It isn't meant to be literally the same kid and is just a reused base model. Just one in a long list of side-effects for rushed endings.

 

 

The Catalyst says it's a Reaper, through the use of the word 'We' in its dialogue. It jumped out at me so hard my eyes went wide. First, it says it's controlling the Reapers, that they're its solution, but then goes on, "When fire burns, is it at war? Is it in conflict? Or is it simply doing what it was created to do? We are no different. We harvest your bodies, your knowledge, your creations...". Bad writing? Should it have said The Reapers instead of We? I'm not so sure, especially if you refuse and the kids voice turns to that of a Reaper.

 

The catalyst originally was just a singular AI. That was before the reapers. "I am the collective embodiment of all reapers." That's where the "we" comes from. I don't see it as bad writing at all given the provided context. That being said I still think the catalyst IS bad writing... just not this specific aspect of it.

 

 

The choices are real, the Crucible really has created more possibilities, but I don't think the location or the supposed AI is real. I think the firing console is real and Harbinger is trying to influence your choice. This especially jumps out at me when you are given the option of Destroy and instead of accepting it as a suitable option, despite having spent the last three games talking about how you want the Reapers destroyed, no matter the cost, Shepard is the one who brings up the question that there must be a better way, not the Catalyst.
 

 

For what its worth I'm fairly certain the "there has to be another way" line was added with EC.

 

As for changing directives at the end of the game, eh. This isn't unique to ME3's ending. Mass Effect 2 the entire focus was to stop the collectors then at the end TIM asspulls a magical emp device and now we're given the choice to save the base even though the focus up until now was very strongly for destroying it.

 

Legion's Loyality mission starts off with a focus being to destroy the heretics. Then at the last moment we're presented with the option to control them. Shepard has a history of adapting to new information and shifting objectives. The ending is just that. The crucible presents new possibilities. Destroy is no longer the only viable option. If Shepard wasn't allowed to adapt to this new information I think fans would be even more outraged. The trilogy did enough railroading as it was.

 

 

After the choice, however, I do think if you pick Control or Synthesis that you're going along with what Harbinger wanted and become indoctrinated, hence the reason you never see Shepard's breath and the change in the eyes when those two are chosen. Destroy is Shepard staying the course and dealing with the Reapers whatever the cost, even if that means the cost of her own life.

 

You don't see a breath scene not because Shepard is indoctrinated but because Shepard dies in those endings. I should know - I've seen it happen. Shepard's body turns to ash. There is no mystery to be solved with why you don't see a breath scene here.

 

As for the eyes this is a visual effect Bioware enjoys using from time to time. Shepard's eyes glow colors many times in the trilogy going back to ME2. Its artistic flair. Something I think stands out more for paragons who aren't used to seeing Shepard with glowing eyes already.

 

Beyond all that though we as the player see and can confirm with our own eyes that the endings are real. Its only headcanon that says otherwise. There was no indoctrination.

[WizzyWarlock]

We've never seen the reapers use such abilities in the past, though. It seems to be exclusive to Leviathan. Not to mention that Leviathan took Shepard to a dream-like world.
 
The Leviathan also confirms the existence of the the Intelligence as an AI.

The Reapers wouldn't have the ability to use that ability, but I think Harbinger, as the original and the one who contains the collective Leviathan, might be able to. I don't actually have the Leviathan DLC, but from what I've seen on YouTube, he doesn't say it's an AI, just that they created an intelligence. I don't see how that intelligence would be tied to the Citadel, when the Reapers built the Citadel as a trap and a jumping off point for their attack, several cycles into their harvesting. The intelligence had to exist somewhere before then, so why not inside Harbinger?
 

If it was the child, it would be the child (Leviathan didn't have a weird glowly effect, it looked real).
 
My Conclusion: It isn't meant to be literally the same kid and is just a reused base model. Just one in a long list of side-effects for rushed endings.

 Not going to go into the rest as it's all pretty subjective depending what you think, but the reason it would have a weird glowy effect is because Harbinger is trying to give the whole scene a realistic image. Most AI/VI in the Mass Effect universe, when not tied to a body, appear as glowing shapes, such as Glyph or the Prothean on Thessia. If it was to go against the standard universe then Shepard would realise something wasn't right.
 

You don't see a breath scene not because Shepard is indoctrinated but because Shepard dies in those endings. I should know - I've seen it happen. Shepard's body turns to ash. There is no mystery to be solved with why you don't see a breath scene here.

I'm saying that if it's going on in Shepard's head, then he doesn't actually turn to ash, but he still dies, becomes indoctrinated, turns into a husk, whatever result you might imagine is really happening.
 

There was no indoctrination.

I agree, there wasn't. But I do think Harbinger got inside his head to try and convince him to take a course of action that he originally wasn't going to take.

[Ithurael]

Believing that Harbinger can create dreamscapes, because he was made from leviathans, is a MASSIVE assumption.

 

The only thing Indoctrination and Enthrallment have in common is that Indoctrination enhanced the signals part of enthrallment.

 

From the lore:

"The Leviathans possess the natural ability to influence the behaviors of lesser-minded organisms to the point of complete physical and mental control, an effect that is similar to Indoctrination"

http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Leviathan

 

"They can use this ability to communicate with other beings in a manner similar to telepathy, as well as to turn them into thralls. The exact mechanics of this ability are unknown, but it has been compared to the rachni's theorized ability to communicate using an organic quantum entanglement communicator analogue that stimulates neural activity"

http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Leviathan

 

A quantum entanglement communicator (QEC) works much like the Sr2's communicator that shep uses to contact and project multiple people

http://masseffect.wi...i/Normandy_SR-2

"A new addition to the CIC layout is the War Room, where War Assets and the Galactic Readiness can be examined. It also contains a Quantum Entanglement Communications room, used by the Commander to contact various individuals to help with the war effort."

 

OR

"One major difference is that the SR-2 lacks the large conference room that the SR-1 had. Instead the SR-2 has a Communications Room, which is situated between the Armory and Research Lab. The room is dominated by a large rectangular conference table where Shepard can hold briefings and discussions with the crew as well as communicate via hologram with the Illusive Man in real time thanks to the ship's quantum entanglement based communications array. The table retracts into the floor when opening communications with the Illusive Man."

 

We all remember those conversations, shepard appeared via hologram to TIM. It didn't look real per say but it had some detail to it.

http://masseffect.wi...ormation_Center

 

Finally, Leviathan enthrallment uses:

"The Leviathans were able to exert control over organic species by directing faster-than-light pulses to their many organic, opalescent "artifacts" scattered throughout the galaxy. Through them, they were able to communicate, control organics, and observe the galaxy."

http://masseffect.wi...an_Enthrallment

 

Compare that to Indoctrination:

"an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions."

http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination

 

In the former, the Leviathan uses Faster-Than-Light pulses (akin to a QEC), in the latter there is electromagnetic fields, infrasonic/ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. As I have said many times the method of indoctrination (the noise and the fields) gain control over the limbic system. From what we know about electromagnetic fields, infrasonic/ultrasonic noise those do not create any kind of detailed illusion or dreamscape or even a long term projection of something that is not there. QEC, however, appears to be able to create a projection of something.

 

Heck, even the leviathan created dreamscape didn't even seem remotely real. Whereas the entire ending sequence, albeit a bit implausible, still had the detail of a real place.

 

Hate to say it, but the lore does not support the notion that Harbinger can create a dreamscape for shepard to play in or die in.

[WizzyWarlock]

Believing that Harbinger can create dreamscapes, because he was made from leviathans, is a MASSIVE assumption.

Not at all. Harbinger was the first, created using the Leviathans, who passed on the ability to allow each Reaper the power to influence organics. The Leviathan says it was refined, perfected and gave rise to indoctrination. If each Reaper, who was not created with the harvest of the Leviathan, can influence organics, I'm sure Harbinger is just a little better at it than the rest.

"They can use this ability to communicate with other beings in a manner similar to telepathy, as well as to turn them into thralls. The exact mechanics of this ability are unknown, but it has been compared to the rachni's theorized ability to communicate using an organic quantum entanglement communicator analogue that stimulates neural activity"

Note the bolded sections. The mechanics are unknown, they compare it to a Rachni theory. None of that is solid fact, it's just assumption and best guess. Nobody really knows how it works.
 

Heck, even the leviathan created dreamscape didn't even seem remotely real. Whereas the entire ending sequence, albeit a bit implausible, still had the detail of a real place.

The location didn't look real, but the people in the dreamscape certainly did, so the ability to create something that looks real is obviously within their limits.

The thing is, as Shepard goes for the console he starts to lose consciousness, his nose is bleeding (yes, I know it already was).. in Leviathan DLC, his nose bleeds when the Leviathan is in his mind and he loses consciousness. Then out of nowhere, an elevator lifts Shepard upwards. Now, look at the screen when this is happening, the ground hasn't changed one bit, there's nowhere for this elevator to have come from. And on the point of the elevator, what if Shepard had fallen somewhere else? Is this entire chamber just fully linked elevator pads that float up independently yet leave a floor behind when they move? Is it just coincidence that he happened to fall on a full pad right smack bang in the middle? And how does it move anyway? Is it telekinesis of some sort? No wires, no sides, nothing touching it, how is it going upwards?

He appears inside the chamber after the bright light, the elevator has gone and he just wakes up on a solid floor. There's nowhere for that elevator to have locked into. As he enters the chamber, the Catalyst tells him to wake up, so he gets to his knees and rises to his feet. This was exactly the same as when the Leviathan pulled Shepard into the dreamscape, there was the bright light and then she first appeared on her knees then rose to her feet.

The chamber appears to be completely open to space, Shepard shouldn't be able to breath, it should be a vacuum. It can be argued that there could be a shield around the area, but there's no sign of one, there's no familiar shimmer of a shield, it's a perfectly clear view.

As I said, I think the moment Shepard collapsed, Harbinger was entering his mind and creating this imaginary place to try and influence his decision on the use of the console. The Control rods, the Synthesis beam and the Destroy generator are all just visual interpretations of the various choices on the console.

[Ithurael]

The precise mechanics are not exactly known. But the general mechanics are:

 

"The Leviathans were able to exert control over organic species by directing faster-than-light pulses to their many organic, opalescent "artifacts" scattered throughout the galaxy. Through them, they were able to communicate, control organics, and observe the galaxy."

http://masseffect.wi...an_Enthrallment

 

The faster-than-light pulses ARE the general mechanics. These are akin or likened to a QEC (or at least theorized to work the same way by the scientists). It seems the pulses reach the artifacts that then do the enthrallment to organic minds (this is never explained). Just as the magnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise are the general mechanics for reaper indoctrination.

 

Also, you are still assuming Harbinger - a reaper - can do a more elaborate job than Leviathan - a leviathan. A reaper =/= a leviathan. They are two different species (oddly enough one is made up from another). I can see where this gets confusing (or at least where the hope is for this), but the lore is clear on what can happen and can't happen. We saw with Leviathan that we could enter a quasi dream world. We did not see this with Soveriegn, Harbinger, Dead Reaper in ME2, Rannoch Reaper, Earth Reaper, Tuchanka Reaper. If this miracle power suddenly just exists at the end it is as big an a$$ pull as starjar existing on the citadel at the end. It renders the entire trilogy moot as it could have been an illusion or a dream since ME1 or ME2 or ME3.

 

A reaper has indoctrination, it does not have enthrallment or dream creation abilities. This is stated in the lore. Anything beyond that, or contradicting that, is headcanon. If that is your headcanon - great. I won't stop you. But that is not what the story is showing in real life.

[WizzyWarlock]

The faster-than-light pulses ARE the general mechanics. These are akin or likened to a QEC (or at least theorized to work the same way by the scientists). It seems the pulses reach the artifacts that then do the enthrallment to organic minds (this is never explained). Just as the magnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise are the general mechanics for reaper indoctrination.

Which is identical to Reaper artifacts, such as Object Rho which, according to the wikia, "The third discovery is that the object broadcasts signals and information on many different spectra. One such pulse, suspected to be similar to a quantum entanglement communicator, reaches into Reaper territory.".

So the Reapers have the same ability as the Leviathans, they can also use QEC to reach their artifacts and then enthral the minds of organics around it. So that's two abilities that the Reapers have that are the same as the Leviathan - the ability to control organics and the ability to send signals through artifacts. And yet you still think it's impossible that Harbinger, the very first Reaper created in the image of the Leviathan, using their DNA, is able to use a third Leviathan ability of pushing that control further into dreamscapes.
 

We saw with Leviathan that we could enter a quasi dream world. We did not see this with Soveriegn, Harbinger, Dead Reaper in ME2, Rannoch Reaper, Earth Reaper, Tuchanka Reaper. It renders the entire trilogy moot as it could have been an illusion or a dream since ME1 or ME2 or ME3.

Other Reapers wouldn't be able to do it, they don't hold the DNA of the Leviathan, though they do have the lesser ability of controlling organics. None of the other Reapers have done it simply because they can't. The first time we see Harbinger up close is right at the end of the series, right before the beam, so we don't know what he's capable of before that point. So it doesn't make the entire trilogy an illusion or dream as Harbinger wasn't there.
 

A reaper has indoctrination, it does not have enthrallment or dream creation abilities.

I know it doesn't and I agree with you. I'm making the premise that Harbinger is an exception to the rule, he was the first, created using the DNA of a God-like species.

[Ithurael]

A quick note, I noticed in my previous posts that it seemed like I was inferring QEC == ability to create dreamscapes. I apologize grievously. I did not mean to say it that way. I was attempting (albeit poorly in retrospect) to show how QEC works in game.

 

QEC (essentially called Superluminal Communication) is a transmission method:

http://en.wikipedia....l_communication

 

It says nothing about the ability to create false realities. The Faster-Than-Light pulses is like sending a ping (just about anyone can do it). and it is the method of that ping. Just like electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise are the method of that communication.

 

While I do state that the lore says the reapers have the ability to leverage QEC. QEC itself is not capable of creating a dreamscape.

 

That ability has been demonstrated by Leviathan, and Leviathan alone. You are making a fallacy called "Affirming the Consequence"

 

An example:

If P, then Q.

Q.

Therefore, P.

 

In writing:

If Bill Gates owns Fort Knox, then he is rich.

Bill Gates is rich.

Therefore, Bill Gates owns Fort Knox.

 

Applied to the current thinking:

If Harbinger can create dreamscapes, then he is made from leviathan

Harbinger is made from Leviathan

Therefore, Harbinger can create dreamscapes

 

Source:http://en.wikipedia...._the_consequent

 

 

Also, you need to take a few things into account Wizzy:

1 - in some playthroughs of ME3 a Soveriegn class reaper comes down - not harbinger. And the ending sequence plays out the same way. (source)

2 - Arrival is not canon. If you don't play it the events still happen but are carried out by a team Hackett sends

 

I know you don't want the ending sequence to be real...but if you think that the developers and writers intended to have the ending be a dream...the evidence is going against you.

[mopotter]

I'd still be playing it on the 360 instead of just 3 or so games and leaving it till the MEHEM came out for the pc which caused me to pick up the series for my lap top, by which time I had moved on to other games and so have only added a couple of times to my total games played.  Maybe 6 or 7 instead of the many many Shepards I brought through from ME 1 into ME2.   I didn't mind the 3 different endings in ME3, I just hated the burned body as the survival option.     

 

Sure there are other things, I could do without or wish had been different - like the auto dialogue, and not having more neutral options, which I used in ME1 a lot; being able to have both the qunari and geth survive if you got Talli and  Legion to work together in ME 2 (which they only did a few times); and some of the other things people have mentioned, but the ending was the reason I stopped playing.  I would not have survived every game, but I would have been there for the memorial, battered and bruised, in some of them.  

 

Will probably play it through again on my lap top after I've played DAI for a year or so.  

[WizzyWarlock]

I know you don't want the ending sequence to be real...but if you think that the developers and writers intended to have the ending be a dream...the evidence is going against you.

I won't go into the rest of your post, we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I do want to point out that writers and developers usually put money and effort into something for a reason. Bring Down the Sky introduced the Batarians, Normandy Crash Site gave a chance to remember ME1, Lair of the Shadow Broker showed Liara's change ready for ME3, Arrival gave evidence of artifacts causing indoctrination and set up the status of Shepard ready for ME3, etc, etc..

So when it comes to Leviathan I wonder what they were trying to show us, why they felt they had to put time and money into creating this DLC. We knew the Reapers were based on the original species, we knew about indoctrination, we knew by then about artifacts, the DLC really didn't introduce anything new.. except for the Leviathan's ability to create a dreamscape. Why are they showing us this? How is this relevant? What are the motives for showing the players this ability?

[Valmar]

The Reapers wouldn't have the ability to use that ability, but I think Harbinger, as the original and the one who contains the collective Leviathan, might be able to. I don't actually have the Leviathan DLC, but from what I've seen on YouTube, he doesn't say it's an AI, just that they created an intelligence. I don't see how that intelligence would be tied to the Citadel, when the Reapers built the Citadel as a trap and a jumping off point for their attack, several cycles into their harvesting. The intelligence had to exist somewhere before then, so why not inside Harbinger?
 

 

Doesn't even the catalyst remark that its an AI? At anyrate its consensus amongst fans, including the wiki, is that the catalyst is an AI.
 

 

 Not going to go into the rest as it's all pretty subjective depending what you think, but the reason it would have a weird glowy effect is because Harbinger is trying to give the whole scene a realistic image. Most AI/VI in the Mass Effect universe, when not tied to a body, appear as glowing shapes, such as Glyph or the Prothean on Thessia. If it was to go against the standard universe then Shepard would realise something wasn't right.

 

Oh, THAT Shepard would realize but he makes zero mention of it being the kid because... reasons.

 

 

I'm saying that if it's going on in Shepard's head, then he doesn't actually turn to ash, but he still dies, becomes indoctrinated, turns into a husk, whatever result you might imagine is really happening.
 
I agree, there wasn't. But I do think Harbinger got inside his head to try and convince him to take a course of action that he originally wasn't going to take.

 

The endings of Control and Synthesis disprove this theory. This held little water before EC was released - now it doesn't even hold a drop.

 

 

 

Ithurael went into this with more detail and lore so I'll just say I agree with him and the lore he brings up as opposed to your headcanon. We'll agree to disagree.

 

 

 

So when it comes to Leviathan I wonder what they were trying to show us, why they felt they had to put time and money into creating this DLC. We knew the Reapers were based on the original species, we knew about indoctrination, we knew by then about artifacts, the DLC really didn't introduce anything new..

 

It was to shut people up with their complaints about the catalyst having no foreshadowing and there being no bases to its assertions of the cycle. "We don't believe you, we don't believe you, no no no. There is no cycle, bs bs bs!"

 

In struts the Leviathans confirming everything the catalyst says. Yep, definitely a cycle of synthetic vs organic. Don't have to just take the catalyst's word on it. Infact one of the complaints I often see tossed at Leviathan is that it exists solely to justify the catalyst.

[Linkenski]

Nah, the Catalyst calls itself "a construct" and unlike some things in the EC this is not something Bioware retroactively came up with because he said the same in the leaked script.

 

When asked if he's "just an AI" by Shepard he responds "In as much as you are just an animal". I guess it's to imply that he's a super-AI.

 

Everything he says is intentionally vague -- somthing Casey Hudson supposedly wanted to make it an ending "people wouldn't forget". I have to say though, I like that everything is sort of cryptic that's not really my issue.

 

...and I liked that upon examining the ending for a second or third time I realized the Catalyst said "Without us to stop it synthetics would destroy all organics" so I was like "oh...!" because I think that's intentionally ambiguous as either past-tense or past participle as in, a formal and modest way to not be too direct.

 

In my interpretation he's just refering to his time of creation by saying "would" instead of "will". 

[Cheviot]

I found the endings satisfying, so I can answer the question in the OP without the thought experiments: I think the ME3 is great.

[WizzyWarlock]

Doesn't even the catalyst remark that its an AI? At anyrate its consensus amongst fans, including the wiki, is that the catalyst is an AI.

 
 

Nah, the Catalyst calls itself "a construct" and unlike some things in the EC this is not something Bioware retroactively came up with because he said the same in the leaked script.
 
When asked if he's "just an AI" by Shepard he responds "In as much as you are just an animal". I guess it's to imply that he's a super-AI.

This is one thing I've noticed about the pro-ending, anti-indoctrination crowd. You don't seem to be able to see past what's given to you. If someone was being deceitful and trying to get you to do something you didn't want to do, do you honestly think they're going to tell you the complete truth, or are they going to make things up that suits their argument?

We already know synthetics lie, Legion did so many times to Shepard and I remember it annoying the hell out of her, I remember her saying one line to the effect of, "How do you expect me to trust you if you keep hiding things from me?". And yet the anti-indoctrination crowd are perfectly happy to accept the reality given to them - if the game doesn't specifically say that it's a lie, then it must be true.

[Ithurael]

We may not trust the catayst at first but, after choosing a color we see how it plays out. So yes...it was not lying

 

Shep dies in control and sheps will rewrites the catalyst and rebuild the relays (as starjar controls the reapers)

 

Shep picks destroy and either kills the galaxy and the reapers or just the reapers

 

Shep picks the green ending and everything turns green

 

All of the endings play out the way starjar says they will play out. Minus High ems destroy which shep survives.

 

If it were lying, after shep picks a "bad" option the game would probably just cut to credits or reset. That is how the developers would show the lie in the game.

 

And don't go into the whole "But it is all an elaborate fabrication so the ending sequences could be a lie as well" sillyness. I have proven citing lore that it is not possible for reapers to do that.

 

Synthetics lie by omission. Reapers do the same. The closest thing to lying I have seen them do is land on a planet and demand the world leaders enter them for peace talks. Now, I am sure peace talks did happen but as we know (and as the politicos don't know) is that exposure near a reaper or reaper artifacts == indoctrination. The reapers never stated that they were going to indoc the politicos. But they certainly had ulterior motives.

 

However, when you are told what the choices are by glowjob and then you make that choice you then see the consequence of that choice and it does show to be really happening. Star Jar is further reinforced by the leviathan dialog.

 

Basically if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, tastes like a duck, has the same genes as a duck, has the same genetic makeup as a duck, reproduces like a duck all at once...I can say...it is a duck

 

But hey...Hope is the last thing to die

[WizzyWarlock]

We may not trust the catayst at first but, after choosing a color we see how it plays out. So yes...it was not lying

All of the endings play out the way starjar says they will play out. Minus High ems destroy which shep survives.

Synthetics lie by omission. Reapers do the same.

However, when you are told what the choices are by glowjob and then you make that choice you then see the consequence of that choice and it does show to be really happening. Star Jar is further reinforced by the leviathan dialog.

I've snipped out the important bits here. I've said before that the actual results are real, it doesn't lie about those, the Crucible has created more possibilities for its use. All of the endings play out the way the Catalyst says, that's also true. But as you said, Synthetics lie by omission. Are you 100% sure that the results of your choice are good for the Galaxy?

Control - let's say that everything is rosy for the first few thousand years. Then a race creates Synthetics, the Synthetics start a war with the Organics, Reapers controlled by Shepard step in and put down the uprising. Extend this to a few more thousand years, where this has happened again and again. The Catalyst was correct, this is a repeating cycle, how can it be stopped? A few more thousand years, ten thousand, fifty thousand, millions.. and perhaps the cycle starts up again, with Shepard as the new Catalyst finding that harvesting the civilizations before they're lost is the only way things will work. Reapers win.

Synthesis - A new framework is created, life becomes both synthetic and organic. And then this new life decides to create Synthetics that aren't a part of this framework, the synthetics rise up, destroy the organics. The Reapers harvest what they can before the civilizations are lost. New civilizations are born, they too create synthetics, the Reapers return, harvest them before it's too late. Rinse and repeat. Reapers win.

Destroy - The Reapers are gone, the Geth are gone, all synthetics are destroyed. The Galaxy goes on, civilizations rise, perhaps Synthetics wipe them out, or perhaps as we saw in ME3, the Catalyst is actually wrong and the synthetics and organics find a way to resolve the conflict.

Oh, that's right, the Catalyst was actually wrong. Synthetics don't always wipe out organics, as shown by the Geth finding a peaceful resolution. In fact, how can the Catalyst even say that synthetics always wipe out organics, if they're harvesting organics before the conflict even starts? It even set things up to speed up the cycle, placing the Citadel and Relays to pretty much force organics down a specific path, so the Reapers could quickly come in, harvest everything and leave again in a natural cycle. They stopped trying to fix things, or even witness if things could be fixed naturally, long ago. If the Catalyst was so intent on fixing this never ending cycle, wouldn't it be better to guide new civilizations away from their doom instead of leading them into it?

So sure, you can trust the Catalyst's every word and the expected outcome, but let's be honest.. he's full of it.

[Ithurael]

There is no absolute good choice for the galaxy. That is why the ending song is called "Bad Choice" (or dark choice...not sure)

 

Each ending represents a brave new world and - in reality - never resolves the catalysts problem because when looking at it, it really isn't a solvable problem Conflict will always exist. No matter what.

 

Maybe control or Synthesis are the best because even if later generations do make new 100% synthetic life the reapers are there to stop them from being annihilated  (not harvest them as the harvest was the old solution and post crucible there is a new solution enacted by shepard as the new catalyst or the changed catalyst)

 

While you are really REALLY metagaming here the point still stands, the ending plays out the same way starjar says it will. It is impossible to predict what will happen in the future. Maybe there is no conflict because every star expands and dies like the one in Dholen does? Maybe the reapers combust or break down? maybe Lord Yog-Sothoth appears and tears reality asunder? Maybe X Y or Z?

 

Starjar is not really full of it. He was created to preserve life from being destroyed by the synthetic v Organic conflict. His solution was to create reapers to preserve these species and harvest them before they can create the syntheic life that destroys them. That was the old solution.

 

The new solution starts with shepard using the crucible.

 

The issue isn't really synthetics killing organics. This issue - at its core - seems to be conflict and annihilation. Organics can wipe out other organics just as easy as synthetics wipe out organics. Things are constantly in conflict in order to evolve.

 

And starjars logic may have been proven to be incomplete via the quarian and geth peace but remember, that was in ME3. If the quarians didn't escape Rannoch when they did, they would have been annihilated in the end. While starjars premise may have been not really wrong (as it says conflict will always arise between synthetics and organics) what it says about the crucible choices is correct. And it is shown to be correct after making the choice.

 

And, just to be a nitpicky SOB, the Catalyst CAN be proven right depending on your playthrough. In some playthroughs the quarians or geth will be annihilated. Proving starjars logic correct once again.

 

I won't argue the logic of the cycle. As the villains of the series they don't really need to have an airtight logical foundation. We know what they are doing is wrong and most actions that are wrong are done with poor reasoning behind them (most, not all)

 

In the end, my favorite ending is low ems destroy. That way the entire galaxy is dead and life resets on a microbial level (I hope) assuming some planets survived the relay explosions. No more conflict for a while, no more starjar, no more reapers, no more contrivances in the story, no more anything. Just billions of years of evolution and silence.

[Valmar]

 
 
This is one thing I've noticed about the pro-ending, anti-indoctrination crowd. You don't seem to be able to see past what's given to you. If someone was being deceitful and trying to get you to do something you didn't want to do, do you honestly think they're going to tell you the complete truth, or are they going to make things up that suits their argument?

We already know synthetics lie, Legion did so many times to Shepard and I remember it annoying the hell out of her, I remember her saying one line to the effect of, "How do you expect me to trust you if you keep hiding things from me?". And yet the anti-indoctrination crowd are perfectly happy to accept the reality given to them - if the game doesn't specifically say that it's a lie, then it must be true.

 

Just like anti-enders and especially pro-indoctrination people constantly ignore whats infront of them and refuse to accept anything that goes against their desired outcome. Between the two I think I'll continue being the one on the side of lore and fact as opposed to fanfiction headcanon. That's just me though.

 

If you don't believe the catalyst chose refuse. Because it is literally the ONLY ending that doesn't have Shepard trusting it. Don't be hypocritical and say you shouldn't trust it and then go and believe it when it says blowing up what could be a crucial part of the citadel will trigger the crucible. But not believing it and choosing refuse doesn't make Shepard the hero most players want him to me. Its rarely a matter of "trusting" the catalyst, its just people upset the ending isn't all they wanted it to be so they grasp at nonexistent straws.

 

The catalyst wasn't lying. Watch the endings on youtube. It's confirmed. It's all real. I know that because I saw it. IT's answer to all this is to just go "just a dream!"

 

I could say that about the entire game. Shepard is still on a slab on Lazarus Station and everything from ME2 onward has been a dream in his coma. Prove me wrong, prove to me it isn't all a dream. Not exactly easy is it? If someone is willing to flatly IGNORE everything the game tells you then you're never going to convince them anything else. They're too far gone.

 

Ironically there is indoctrination going on with the ending. It just isn't with Shepard. It's the fan base who continue to believe in IT.

 

Further more, I'd struggle to call myself 'pro-ending'. I only defend it against false claims. Just because I don't wave the hate flag and sing with the hate-rally over fictional complaints that exist only in fanfiction and headcanon doesn't mean I'm pro-ending.

[WizzyWarlock]

Maybe Lord Yog-Sothoth appears and tears reality asunder?

That would be so cool. That's it, got a plot idea for ME4. Hold a sec, writing an email to Bioware.

[Ithurael]

That would be so cool. That's it, got a plot idea for ME4. Hold a sec, writing an email to Bioware.

 

10/10!

 

Would buy

[GalacticWolf5]

Control - let's say that everything is rosy for the first few thousand years. Then a race creates Synthetics, the Synthetics start a war with the Organics, Reapers controlled by Shepard step in and put down the uprising. Extend this to a few more thousand years, where this has happened again and again. The Catalyst was correct, this is a repeating cycle, how can it be stopped? A few more thousand years, ten thousand, fifty thousand, millions.. and perhaps the cycle starts up again, with Shepard as the new Catalyst finding that harvesting the civilizations before they're lost is the only way things will work. Reapers win.

 

But why would Shepard start the cycles again?

 

The Catalyst was built with the mandate to preserve all life. Shepard became the Reaper master consciousness, he wasn't built. He doesnt have a definite purpose. Shepard can do whatever he wants with the Reapers.

 

Yes conflict will come again. Lasting peace is pretty much impossible. Shepard will need to find a solution. Are the harvest cycles the solution for Shepard? No, because he doesn't have to preserve all life. He could simply destroy the synthetics and let the organics live. Shepard knows the cycles were wrong, starting them all over again would be going against what he stands for.

[WizzyWarlock]

Yes conflict will come again. Lasting peace is pretty much impossible. Shepard will need to find a solution. Are the harvest cycles the solution for Shepard? No, because he doesn't have to preserve all life. He could simply destroy the synthetics and let the organics live.

Which is what the Catalyst should have done but didn't, instead focusing on destroying the synthetics and harvesting the organics, allowing lesser races to flourish. Why? They can't just destroy the synthetics and leave the organics, as the technically advanced organics will just create more synthetics, which sets it all in motion again. It's like if someone went around smashing up all the TV's in the world in some attempt to stop people watching TV. As soon as the psycho smasher has gone, we'd just make TV's again. We don't lose the knowledge how to do it, so its only choice was to do something with the organics too.

Now Shepard, as Reaper Overlord, could just float around the Galaxy playing some weird form of Whack-a-Mole with Synthetic constructions, but like Cerberus, there's always going to be some big bad corporation that's going to cause things to get out of hand. And is he really willing to float around playing Galactic Police for the next few million years? Are the Galactic civilizations always going to be happy having their freedoms stamped on?

[Valmar]

Which is what the Catalyst should have done but didn't, instead focusing on destroying the synthetics and harvesting the organics, allowing lesser races to flourish. Why? They can't just destroy the synthetics and leave the organics, as the technically advanced organics will just create more synthetics, which sets it all in motion again. It's like if someone went around smashing up all the TV's in the world in some attempt to stop people watching TV. As soon as the psycho smasher has gone, we'd just make TV's again. We don't lose the knowledge how to do it, so its only choice was to do something with the organics too.

 

The reapers harvest all life, synthetic and organic.

 

"the Catalyst was created by the Leviathans, who noticed that many of the organic races they commanded were eventually felled by their own synthetic creations. To prevent such events from happening, they created the Catalyst - which they referred to as "The Intelligence" - to oversee relations between organic and synthetic life. The Catalyst was programmed to ensure the continued existence of life in the galaxy through any means necessary."

 

Just killing the synthetics was not an option for the catalyst as it goes against its very purpose.

 

 

And is he really willing to float around playing Galactic Police for the next few million years?

 

Why not? Time is an illusion with little meaning to an immortal being like Shepalyst. A million years is but the blink of an eye - the reapers and Leviathan are over a BILLION years old. I think he'll manage.

[Rip504]

I enjoyed the auto-dialogue concerning short conversations without any real option for choices. I was ok with the way the ME2 squad was handled,as ME2 was the worst of the three imo. They honestly were not handled much better during ME2. The missions in the game are more about convincing the other races that the Reapers are an over powering threat and a united stand at Earth is their best chance for victory.

 

The Reapers needed a begining and reasoning as to why and how. We got our answer, We may not have enjoyed it or completely understood it at first,but it does make some degree of sense. As they do leave some races alone while destroying the rest. The war between Organics and Synthetics on Rannoch was proof and did back what the Reapers were saying. It is also not the only example of such conflict.

 

People loved the Krogan and Mordin. After ME2 people wanted a resolution to this issue either way. We got one.

 

Most things were explained and were given reason. The game had a great amount of character interaction which made the crew and game feel more alive than it ever had before in previous titles. It answered and concluded the trilogy as it was suppose to. All three games left you with somewhat of a cliffhanger ending. Yet ME2 ending is good? That has always been a mystery to me.

 

I will say that the DLC does add a great deal more to the ME3 story than I had first thought. Yet it delivers. Although I am not a fan of Retake Omega DLC, Yet it is still good fun. The whole oh we are doing pointless things while the Reapers attack arguement is pointless in my eyes. You have to start fighting somewhere,and Shepard and their crew are not going to single hand the Reapers. What do you think the majority of the forces in ME3 are doing? Oh fighting the Reapers. Shepard is trying to unite the forces that are currently fighting the Reapers...

 

(Sorry about the randomness of my post and layout,I am currently being distracted majorly.)

 

Now I can not answer the OP,as I do not know what have been the "perfect prefered ending" for me. I have come to accept the ending I was given and chose. I honestly think ME3 is or can have the case made that it is indeed the best of the trilogy. Yes I would have like to see a few more things and will admit to there being some flaws,but what those are,why,and how are the things we tend to disagree on. I do place ME3 and the trilogy on my GOAT list of course. With the current endings.  

 

Clean graphics,smooth gameplay help a great deal imo. I understand the feelings about the main plot. Citadel,Crucible,Catalyst etc,yet it is what we got and was incorporated into the story as best as possible. It is better than alot of the fan ideas I have come to read,hear,and be subject to.

 

Sorry I will try to clean my thoughts up and put them together in better form.