479 réponses à ce sujet

[Saphiron123]

I know DA is getting very PC, but dragon age used to discuss the issues, they used to tackle them head on. DAI seems to have moved away from that, everything and everyone is cool. Bioware used to call out prejudice, let the player decide where he falls, elves were thrown in alienages (none of those in DAI) and a city elf warden took revenge on a noble who raped his friend, Dwarves cast out the surfacers, treat the castless as inhuman, Qunari felt they were the superior race and Sten couldn't understand that a female warden was both a woman and a warden. And humans destroyed the elves and made them slaves.

Here's Sten, on the subject of women fighters.



Sten wasn't trying to be jerk, he just didn't get it. His culture is radically different. His religion was different.

I enjoy the inclusiveness of DAI. I just hope bioware isn't shying away from prejudice, giving up on serious issues in favor of everyone magically getting along. 

Take Dorian, amazing character, great dialogue... but despite his talk about expectation to marry and all, the only character in the entire game who holds his lifestyle against him seems to be his father. Doesn't feel real... there's real challenge getting accepted for people in the gay community, things DAO and DA2 would comment on. And bull suggests the qunari who basically feel women are unfit to be warriors are totally accepting of all sexual preferences... the Qun, the hardest most formal religion in Thedas is suddenly liberal? In DA2 they were a terrifying warrior race who embraced spreading the Qun as the be all and end all of their existence. Through any means necessary (they also had awesome eyes and horns, now they're so... pretty.)

Inclusiveness is awesome, but a world without prejudice is a world without drama, and creating a magical world where everyone accepts and loves everyone else is a world that isn't real. Discuss prejudice, bioware, let there be conflict... don't whitewash it, and make racism and sexism magically a distant memory. Some of your best stories started with casteless dwarves and elves fighting injustice in the denerim alienage. I remember being treated like a messenger at Ostagar as an elf, while the blacksmith made fun of fetch quests to my human warden, saying he "had better things to do".

DAI didn't feel like it touched on those subjects at all. Sure everyone is included... but it's a missed opportunity for real storytelling.

[N7 Spectre525]

The new Disney, oh excuse me Bioware just wants to play it safe to rake in the dollar's from the too easily offended casual fanbase they seem to cherish so dearly. I just finished Saints Row 4 and I must say its refreshing to play a game where the devs have the balls to do whatever the f..k they want...critics be damned.

[papercut_ninja]

The new Disney, oh excuse me Bioware just wants to play it safe to rake in the dollar's from the too easily offended casual fanbase they seem to cherish so dearly. I just finished Saints Row 4 and I must say its refreshing to play a game where the devs have the balls to do whatever the f..k they want...critics be damned.

 

Well...the Bioware developers didn't give a damn about what you want...so there's that to say for balls to do whatever they wanted even though it seems to have offended you...

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

The new Disney, oh excuse me Bioware just wants to play it safe to rake in the dollar's from the too easily offended casual fanbase they seem to cherish so dearly. I just finished Saints Row 4 and I must say its refreshing to play a game where the devs have the balls to do whatever the f..k they want...critics be damned.

Lol, SR is hardly a good example, it used to be a pretty serious game involving gang warfare, drugs & murder with the occasional silliness but now its been completely toned down & turned into a comedy series in order to attract the so called "casual gamers"

[N7 Spectre525]

Well...the Bioware developers didn't give a damn about what you want...so there's that to say for balls to do whatever they wanted even though it seems to have offended you...

When did I say I was offended? Dont put words in my mouth. I stated enjoyed playing a game that wasn't a PC wankfest. I just think its amusing how Bioware has lost their hard edge in order to please everyone under the sun.

[N7 Spectre525]

Lol, SR is hardly a good example, it used to be a pretty serious game involving gang warfare, drugs & murder with the occasional silliness but now its been completely toned down & turned into a comedy series in order to attract the so called "casual gamers"

I played 2,3 and now 4. Yes there was a shift in tone but the games are still refreshingly raw as far as im concerned....to each his own.

[papercut_ninja]

When did I say I was offended? Dont put words in my mouth. I stated enjoyed playing a game that wasn't a PC wankfest. I just think its amusing how Bioware has lost their hard edge in order to please everyone under the sun.

 

Amused it is then...still they obviously wasn't trying to please everyone under the sun, since you regard it as a PC wankfest, which I am guessing is not an endearing compliment that suggests that you were pleased...

[Darkly Tranquil]

I must admit I'm a bit disappointed by the nerf to the Qun. In Origins (and DA2) it seemed like this totally alien culture with its own very distinct values and ways of organising a society that challenged the norms of Thedosian society (and to some degree our own Western values), which made it an interesting topic for philosophical reflection. Now, it's gotten a lot less interesting, because many of the things that were previously absolutes in the Qun (like gender roles, and set places in society) seem to have become rather vague guidelines. For a culture and philosophy centred around the notion of certainty, order, and the pre-eminence of the group over the individual, these newfound ambiguities only serve to detract from what made it interesting in the first place.

[Saphiron123]

I must admit I'm a bit disappointed by the nerf to the Qun. In Origins (and DA2) it seemed like this totally alien culture with its own very distinct values and ways of organising a society that challenged the norms of Thedosian society (and to some degree our own Western values), which made it an interesting topic for philosophical reflection. Now, it's gotten a lot less interesting, because many of the things that were previously absolutes in the Qun (like gender roles, and set places in society) seem to have become rather vague guidelines. For a culture and philosophy centred around the notion of certainty, order, and the pre-eminence of the group over the individual, these newfound ambiguities only serve to detract from what made it interesting in the first place.

This. The qunari aren't interesting if they reflect the values of everyone else.

[b10d1v]

You make a good point, distrust is common until we "feel" that we have common ground and with the Qun that's difficult.  My first casual introduction to a gay engineer folks thought that I might react badly, but it never came up, he was an awesome mechanical engineer and we had real stories to share that left the others lost in the math surrounding infrastructure failure analysis (bridges at the time).  You don't have to do anything for prejudice to label your actions in life, Bioware should know this lesson well.

[earymir]

The point I assumed they were going for was that Krem *is* male.  As in, that's his primary sense of being, and therefore a male role is appropriate in the Qun..  The Qun seems nothing if not demanding toward an ideal, without ambiguity - Krem has no sense of ambiguity here.  We have yet to encounter the ideals of the Qun in a way that we understand.  We have almost no understanding of what sex/gender means to this culture.  We have a general sense of what honor means to them, and almost nothing else.  

 

I'm sure when Sten's lines were written, they were not taking into account transgender issues, but I honestly don't think they are being contradictory here.  The Qun has some aspects that are much more pragmatic than Andrastian culture (what is essentially our culture translated into Thedas), and I think things that are issues to some people in our culture (transgender people, or even casual sex) are just straight up fine because there's a clear answer to this from a pragmatic point of view.  Sex is normal, let it happen.  Transgender people exist.  They have a societal role that is congruent with their own sense of self.  Done.  No more stupid discussions about morality or what's "natural" or what is a "sin" when there are clearly bigger issues to deal with.  

 

 

Edit:

 

I think it's possible there was whitewashing of other issues in DAI, but it's honestly really hard to tell from this game.  We're talking about some of the most powerful people in Thedas (powerful people tend to be much more immune to stuff socially - well, when it's convenient anyway), and they are also in their own little world of Skyhold in a unique position (powerful, but counterculture by default).  I very much agree we don't deal with these other issues that we dealt with in the other game - racism, prejudice, sexual assault, etc.  But it really also wasn't the story of this game - we were a true political force and had a much more bird's eye view of things.  I would expect that if we were to get into more personal stories, we'd see these present again.  Or, I'd hope.  

 

The Inquisition *can* deal with some of these things though - who you choose as Divine has a huge impact on Andrastian culture.  Leliana is amazingly progressive, while Vivienne is almost exactly status quo except that mages have more control than before.   

[FreeWitch]

Have to agree with the OP.  I found the Qunari extremely interesting and wanted to learn more of them.  That is one of the things I did like about DA2 is it gave me more of an understanding of Sten.  This is why I feel they shouldn't have been introduced as a playable race yet.  And Iron Bull ... although I like him fine, I just found him disappointing I guess is the word I'm looking for.

 

I also hope to heck Tevinter doesn't get watered down and become PC if they ever do a game in that setting.

[Jeffry]

Well, seeing as how some people can be offended by nude depiction of a religious figure on a staff, I am not even surprised the game has lost some of its edge... And it is not just prejudice and stuff like that, it is also the fact that the Inquisitor can't be truly evil. While I never went with my Warden on a killing spree slaying every fool NPC I didn't like, it doesn't feel right that the Inquisitor can't be a real bastard (or tyrant in this case) anymore.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Qunari was definitely retconned from what it was in previous games, from the Krem thing to their views on sexual activity(used to be only for procreation and yet now have sex clinics where whenever a Qunari has an urge they go sate it). My guess is because they want the Qun to seem more friendly to players since Bioware wants to move north and thus the Qun will have a bigger role.

 

 

The point I assumed they were going for was that Krem *is* male.  As in, that's his primary sense of being, and therefore a male role is appropriate in the Qun..  The Qun seems nothing if not demanding toward an ideal, without ambiguity - Krem has no sense of ambiguity here.  We have yet to encounter the ideals of the Qun in a way that we understand.  We have almost no understanding of what sex/gender means to this culture.  We have a general sense of what honor means to them, and almost nothing else.  

 

I'm sure when Sten's lines were written, they were not taking into account transgender issues, but I honestly don't think they are being contradictory here.  The Qun has some aspects that are much more pragmatic than Andrastian culture (what is essentially our culture translated into Thedas), and I think things that are issues to some people in our culture (transgender people, or even casual sex) are just straight up fine because there's a clear answer to this from a pragmatic point of view.  Sex is normal, let it happen.  Transgender people exist.  They have a societal role that is congruent with their own sense of self.  Done.  No more stupid discussions about morality or what's "natural" or what is a "sin" when there are clearly bigger issues to deal with. 

It is contradictory. The Qun has been portrayed and described as a purely collectivist society that cares nothing of what the individuals in it think since "there is only the Qun". The Qun of the previous games would not give a single care what Krem thinks, and most likely send Krem to a reeducation camp or even turn into a mindless laborer if Krem's thoughts on the matter persisted. Yet now they have it where the Qun takes what a person thinks into account and changes its set roles for the person's benefit. Putting the mindset of an individual over the mindset of the community is a trait of an individualist community, the exact opposite of a collectivist community.

[X Equestris]

The Qunari was definitely retconned from what it was in previous games, from the Krem thing to their views on sexual activity(used to be only for procreation and yet now have sex clinics where whenever a Qunari has an urge they go sate it). My guess is because they want the Qun to seem more friendly to players since Bioware wants to move north and thus the Qun will have a bigger role.
 
 

It is contradictory. The Qun has been portrayed and described as a purely collectivist society that cares nothing of what the individuals in it think since "there is only the Qun". The Qun of the previous games would not give a single care what Krem thinks, and most likely send Krem to a reeducation camp or even turn into a mindless laborer if Krem's thoughts on the matter persisted. Yet now they have it where the Qun takes what a person thinks into account and changes its set roles for the person's benefit. Putting the mindset of an individual over the mindset of the community is a trait of an individualist community, the exact opposite of a collectivist community.

Bull has been sort of out of the loop for a while. He might be trying to reconcile Krem and his personal belief in the Qun.

[Nefla]

I agree OP, I missed the darker issues and lore.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Bull has been sort of out of the loop for a while. He might be trying to reconcile Krem and his personal belief in the Qun.

I've started seeing it as this way as well. After years living outside of the Qun, his memories from his like as Hissrad and his life as The Iron Bull have begun to merge leading to the inconsistencies and how much more like the rest of Thedas the Qun seems. This mix of both lives comes to a head during his personal quest when he has to choose which version of him is him.

[David Gaider]

The Qunari are very fond of categorization, and look upon those categories as absolute and defining -- but they are not without their own degree of fluidity by Qunari standards, which are very different from our own.

 

You say you're female? Then you do not fight -- "fighting" being when someone serves as a warrior. Some folks looked on Tallis as a contradiction to this as well, rather than accepting that someone like Sten would not look upon what she does as fighting. Being able to pick up a weapon and use it, even to use it well, does not make one a warrior if that is not their purpose (which it would not be, for a Ben-Hassrath, but certainly would be for a Grey Warden whose stated purpose is to combat the darkspawn).

 

You say you're male? Then fighting is acceptable. Even if your biology might say otherwise, the Qunari have a term for what this means and clearly the Tamassrans take it into account -- though you might note Iron Bull did not indicate how easily that might occur. We have a term for "transgender" in our real-world society as well -- that does not automatically translate into it being looked upon exactly the same by every person.

 

You can take what Sten said in DAO as the last and final word on every aspect of Qunari society, and thus everything following it as contradictory, or you can take into account these different viewpoints as new information and consider how they fit into the whole. It's really up to you, though that's hardly going to stop us from further developing the Qunari culture...regardless of the reasons one might ascribe to us for doing so.

[Nefla]

[David Gaider]

I will also point out, since Dorian was mentioned, that Dorian's father did not have a problem with his homosexuality in and of itself.

 

His problem was that Dorian refused to do his duty as the heir of a proud Tevinter family. If Dorian had agreed to marry as intended, and kept his homosexuality as a private conceit, there would have been no conflict. The issue insofar as Tevinter society goes is not with homosexuality in and of itself, but with their insistence on a public standard for any and all members of the upper class -- no one does blood magic, no one is anything other than their perfect ideal, and the polite fiction must always be maintained. Appearances are everything, even if every single person understands that the truth behind closed doors is completely different.

 

tl;dr: It's not about Tevinter "suddenly being homophobic when the rest of Thedas isn't", it's about Tevinter society's preoccupation with appearances.

 

Take that as you will.

[Nefla]

The Qunari are very fond of categorization, and look upon those categories as absolute and defining -- but they are not without their own degree of fluidity by Qunari standards, which are very different from our own.

 

You say you're female? Then you do not fight -- "fighting" being when someone serves as a warrior. Some folks looked on Tallis as a contradiction to this as well, rather than accepting that someone like Sten would not look upon what she does as fighting. Being able to pick up a weapon and use it, even to use it well, does not make one a warrior if that is not their purpose (which it would not be, for a Ben-Hassrath, but certainly would be for a Grey Warden whose stated purpose is to combat the darkspawn).

 

You say you're male? Then fighting is acceptable. Even if your biology might say otherwise, the Qunari have a term for what this means and clearly the Tamassrans take it into account -- though you might note Iron Bull did not indicate how easily that might occur. We have a term for "transgender" in our real-world society as well -- that does not automatically translate into it being looked upon exactly the same by every person.

 

You can take what Sten said in DAO as the last and final word on every aspect of Qunari society, and thus everything following it as contradictory, or you can take into account these different viewpoints as new information and consider how they fit into the whole. It's really up to you, though that's hardly going to stop us from further developing the Qunari culture...regardless of the reasons one might ascribe to us for doing so.

I think many of us were confused because of the rigid and backwards impression we were given by Sten in DA:O and by all the Qunari in DA2. They seemed so cut and dry, so all or nothing (I mean you can't even have sex for love, you get "reprogrammed" for that right?). A person can't choose their job under the Qun, even if they would rather be something else, it seems like "choosing" to be a different gender is more extreme and would have been even less accepted, especially if the biological female was better at something else than she was at fighting (can she not become an aqun athlok in such a case? What if she wants to live as a man but doesn't want to be a soldier?). I definitely got the impression that personal desires didn't matter and "the will of the Qun" was everything. I mean Ketojan killed himself without question even though he didn't want to die because that's what the Qun required . Sten doesn't even seem to be able to comprehend that a biological female can fight. It would have been less confusing if he had assumed she was transgender. "oh you're an aqun athlok" rather than arguing in confused circles about how women can't fight. I hope this doesn't come across as aggressive or something weird, just trying to explain where my disconnect at least is coming from. (I don't know about others)

[Saphiron123]

I will also point out, since Dorian was mentioned, that Dorian's father did not have a problem with his homosexuality in and of itself.

 

His problem was that Dorian refused to do his duty as the heir of a proud Tevinter family. If Dorian had agreed to marry as intended, and kept his homosexuality as a private conceit, there would have been no conflict. The issue insofar as Tevinter society goes is not with homosexuality in and of itself, but with their insistence on a public standard for any and all members of the upper class -- no one does blood magic, no one is anything other than their perfect ideal, and the polite fiction must always be maintained. Appearances are everything, even if every single person understands that the truth behind closed doors is completely different.

 

tl;dr: It's not about Tevinter "suddenly being homophobic when the rest of Thedas isn't", it's about Tevinter society's preoccupation with appearances.

 

Take that as you will.

David Gaider just responded to one of my topics... That's pretty cool. We can be vocal here, but I hope we don't leave you with the impression we don't enjoy the work you do, dragon age is amazing series and everyone here is pretty passionate about it. Very cool to know you're personally looking in.

I look forward to seeing the Qunari again, the arishok is without a doubt one of my favorite characters. I don't think I'm alone in saying I hope I see more, I think a war with them would have so much room for great storytelling.

Have to admit though, I'm still holding out hope I'll see my wardens again someday, the search for the calling and the source of the darkspawn, sounds like a great story... for new wardens as well as old obviously. Broodmothers with modern tech would be fantastic, and the architect is amazing, and I'd love to see the other magisters if they still exist.

Thanks for responding David, very cool.

It'd be fun to see Sten as well. Updated 10 years.

Edit: And shale. Definitely shale.
 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

You have to remember that in Qunadar, a transgendered person is seen as the gender they ARE not, the gender of their body so, the them a woman living as a man IS a man just as, I assume a man living as a woman IS a woman to them. They don't see the body, they see the mind. So to Sten it's odd that a female warden looks like a woman, and acts like a woman but, fights. Were she living as a man, she would BE a man to Sten and, it wouldn't be a question he needed to ask at all.

[In Exile]

I think many of us were confused because of the rigid and backwards impression we were given by Sten in DA:O and by all the Qunari in DA2. They seemed so cut and dry, so all or nothing. A person can't choose their job under the Qun, even if they would rather be something else, it seems like "choosing" to be a different gender is more extreme and would have been even less accepted, especially if the biological female was better at something else than she was at fighting (can she not become an aqun athlok in such a case? What if she wants to live as a man but doesn't want to be a soldier?). I definitely got the impression that personal desires didn't matter and "the will of the Qun" was everything. I mean Ketojan killed himself without question even though he didn't want to die because that's what the Qun required . Sten doesn't even seem to be able to comprehend that a biological female can fight. It would have been less confusing if he had assumed she was transgender. "oh you're an aqun athlok" rather than arguing in confused circles about how women can't fight. I hope this doesn't come across as aggressive or something weird, just trying to explain where my disconnect at least is coming from. (I don't know about others)

 

Sten was comically and ridiculously hypocritical in DAO. The Arishok took hypocrys to new and almost comical heights in DA2. He says he lost no "Qunari" to the Tal-Vasoth. That's idiotic nonsense. It only works if you use a No True Scotsman fallacy. And that's the very essence of the Qun: troll logic when it comes to categories. 

 

The most quintessential feature of the Qun is this sort of wordplay based on categories that requires effectively absurd distinctions between categories that, while sharing a label that we use IRL or that in-setting is used in the same way as IRL, the Qun uses in a totally different way.

 

Sten explains at comical length how someone is defined by their role for all time and without exception. Which is true... until someone gets promoted, in which case they are and always were meant to be a role that they never had until that moment in time. 

 

Sten doesn't comprehend that someone identifies as "female" and "warrior", because that's nonsense in the view of the Qun. To understand the Qun, you can't use coherent IRL terms. As DG explains, the logical operation is IF "Warrior" THEN NOT "Female" or, alternatively, IF "Female", THEN NOT "Warrior". It's all labels and wordplay. 

[SpiritMuse]

I will also point out, since Dorian was mentioned, that Dorian's father did not have a problem with his homosexuality in and of itself.
 
His problem was that Dorian refused to do his duty as the heir of a proud Tevinter family. If Dorian had agreed to marry as intended, and kept his homosexuality as a private conceit, there would have been no conflict. The issue insofar as Tevinter society goes is not with homosexuality in and of itself, but with their insistence on a public standard for any and all members of the upper class -- no one does blood magic, no one is anything other than their perfect ideal, and the polite fiction must always be maintained. Appearances are everything, even if every single person understands that the truth behind closed doors is completely different.
 
tl;dr: It's not about Tevinter "suddenly being homophobic when the rest of Thedas isn't", it's about Tevinter society's preoccupation with appearances.
 
Take that as you will.

This is what I always thought the Blood Magic ritual was about - not making Dorian straight, but making him more pliable and willing to hide his "flaw" and accept the sham marriage. Because his abject refusal to conform was the real problem, not his being gay.