479 réponses à ce sujet

[DementedSheep]

It's not a stretch at all. I'm not "Accusing" Bioware of anything, but it just makes sense.

 

-All the hairstyle are very much gender-neutral, regardless of the effort required to make them. None are particularly masculine, none are particularly feminine. Look at the hairs in Origins and 2 to see the difference. Both games and plenty of option, some could work on a male or female character, but there were plenty of masculine and feminine styles.

 

-Same thing goes for the Skyhold Pajamas. One gender-neutral uniform fro everyone. Look at DA2, which had male and female versions of Hawke's home outfit. Or Mass Effect, which had a dress available of FemShep, and outfits varies slightly depending on Shepard's gender,

 

-If anything the Orlesian Ball pantsuits are a result of time and resource limits, but that still falls under the same category of neutrality. Hell, Ball aside, there aren't ANY pieces of clothing or armor that could be identified as distinctly masculine or feminine. 

 

I make any claim that inclusiveness is a bad thing nor do I make the accusation that Bioware are "SJW's" (a term I think is absurd) but I stand by what I said because it makes a whole lot of sense. Inquisition is a very, very 'neutral' game. And this is reflected least of all in these issues I've listed. It is much more present in the issues addressed by the original poster. I love Inquisition, but the idea of "Include everyone, don't offend anyone" is very tangible throughout. And while that is certainly and idea made with good intentions, it may have done slightly more harm than good.

Of course it going to have to be fairly neutral if you don't have the resources or want to do to completely separate things because they have to work for both and they are sharing resources. You are the one attaching the motivation of "include everyone, don't offended anyone" to this when it's far form the only explanation.

 

I'm curious as to what a particularly "masculine" hairstyle would even be aside from beards which it has. Most of the hairstyle are buzcuts which are for more associated with men and  some of the hairstyle do look like they were made for women. They are not really that neutral, they are just available to both. If they had taken a couple of them and locked it for one gender giving everyone an even smaller pool to work with would have made you more happy just so you can say something is gender segregated?

[Ieldra]

Because it helps with the world building, establishing reasons for cultural practices is not limiting, and its certainly not something to be avoided as it has no impact on anything besides helping explain what makes the world different.

It is limiting because you never know what you might want to retcon in the next chapter of your story. Writers don't like to be bound by what they've written years ago. I often insist that they should consider themselves bound if they actually wrote something, but I understand the desire to remain as free as possible. That means you only provide explanations where they're actually needed, rather than merely desirable. Also, it's not as if you're expected to add to the world and need to know how things work in detail. That's Bioware's job. For us as players, the world needs to be plausible enough that we can suspend our disbelief - where plausible rationalizations we make up play a role.

[Steelcan]

It is limiting because you never know what you might want to retcon in the next chapter of your story. Writers don't like to be bound by what they've written years ago. I often insist that they should consider themselves bound if they actually wrote something, but I understand the desire to remain as free as possible. That means you only provide explanations where they're actually needed, rather than merely desirable. Also, it's not as you're expected to add to the world and need to know how things work in detail. That's Bioware's job. For us as players, the world needs to be plausible enough that we can suspend our disbelief - where plausible rationalizations we make up play a role.

I doubt they will need to retcon background information such as "why women serve in the army"

[darth_hel]

(I'll ignore the obvious answer of not everyone being able to afford/having access to healing magic and just move on)

 

Because it helps with the world building, establishing reasons for cultural practices is not limiting, and its certainly not something to be avoided as it has no impact on anything besides helping explain what makes the world different.

 

World Building will rarely if ever answer every question you have about the world. It will always leave you wanting to know more. Cultures are generally so huge that having an answer for every single thing a culture does is often not possible, and many times even those within the culture may not know why they do something. World Building is about making the world believable, and intricate, which the Dragon Age world is even if you don't know the exact whys of every little thing that people do. There's nothing unrealistic or particularly mind-screwy about women serving in the military if they want to (for some cultures) or if they show an aptitude for it (Qunari). 

[Steelcan]

There's nothing unrealistic or particularly mind-screwy about women serving in the military if they want to (for some cultures) or if they show an aptitude for it (Qunari). 

In a modern setting sure, not so much in anything pre-industrial

[Ieldra]

I doubt they will need to retcon background information such as "why women serve in the army"

I can only wonder why this is so important to you. I've been playing DA games since 2009 and read all the books, but in all that time this never struck me as so extremely weird that it needed an explanation beyond "cultural norms are different". There are countless questions I have about the world, every single one, in my view, way more interesting than this one.

[Steelcan]

I can only wonder why this is so important to you. I've been playing DA games since 2009 and read all the books, but all that time this never struck me as so extremely weird that it needed an explanation beyond "cultural norms are different". There are countless questions I have about the world, every single one, in my view, way more interesting than this one.

Its not something I obsess over, and in other threads I probably wouldn't mention it, its a question I don't think is answered satisfactorily, but that doesn't mean I don't have bigger questions about the world

[darth_hel]

Its not something I obsess over, and in other threads I probably wouldn't mention it, its a question I don't think is answered satisfactorily, but that doesn't mean I don't have bigger questions about the world

 

I'm still not sure what answer it really needs beyond "Their culture is different."

[AlanC9]

I'm saying it makes little sense for the armies of Thedas to be open to men and women in the rank and file due to sexual dimorphism in terms of strength.

Sure. Since the armies exist, the dimorphism does not.

if you'd like I can also list why it wouldn't make sense for other reasons in a medieval context such as high infant mortality requiring more children to be born meaning women have less choice in what they want to do with their life, which BioWare (completely understandably) has totally side-stepped

Well, I suppose they could have contrived a codex entry about how infant mortality isn't a thing in Thedas. But yeah, not worth it.

[Steelcan]

I'm still not sure what answer it really needs beyond "Their culture is different."

because in and of itself that's not an answer, the culture of the American South is pretty different from the Zulu Kingdom, Ancient Carthage, and Peru under the Inca, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see the differences and understand why they are there

[Steelcan]

Sure. Since the armies exist, the dimorphism does not.

Cassandra is shorter than a male inquisitor last I checked

[darth_hel]

Cassandra is shorter than a male inquisitor last I checked

 

You can't compare 2 individuals and extrapolate across entire civilizations

[Ieldra]

Its not something I obsess over, and in other threads I probably wouldn't mention it, its a question I don't think is answered satisfactorily, but that doesn't mean I don't have bigger questions about the world

Try to extrapolate from the observation:

 

There are almost as many women as men serving in Thedas' armies. That means there are enough children to continue the culture with these women being at least temporarily unavailable for child-bearing. Now look for possible reasons why that could be: the availability of healing magic may be a factor, also, the total number of people serving in the army may not be that significant compared to the whole population. Try to come up with possible reasons, and you'll notice that you actually have no reason to NOT accept it simply "as is". The more you think about it, the more our real-world history may appear as the unusual variant that needs an explanation. 

[Steelcan]

You can't compare 2 individuals and extrapolate across entire civilizations

ok, if I expand it to include all non-qunari females and it still holds true I think the case will be made, and to my knowledge those are the only females who are taller than human males in DA

[Steelcan]

Try to extrapolate from the observation:

 

There are almost as many women as men serving in Thedas' armies. That means there are enough children to continue the culture with these women being at least temporarily unavailable for child-bearing. Now look for possible reasons why that could be: the availability of healing magic may be a factor, also, the total number of people serving in the army may not be that significant compared to the whole population. Try to come up with possible reasons, and you'll notice that you actually have no reason to NOT accept it simply "as is". The more you think about it, the more our real-world history may appear as the unusual variant that needs an explanation. 

Not really since this is a work of fiction and not the product of thousands of years of culture.....  And even then, the real world has these explanations, ones not made by a writer, unless God and blah blah blah.

 

Seeking to explain why the world is the way it is is kind of a thing history students do

[AlanC9]

Cassandra is shorter than a male inquisitor last I checked

Yep. That proves that height dimorphism is a thing in Thedas. Well, unless it proves nothing and Cassandra's just short, but I think height dimorphism is pretty consistent.

[Steelcan]

Yep. That proves that height dimorphism is a thing in Thedas.

....................................

 

you are joking right?

[TheOgre]

As long as it's a man doing it, anything is believable. A 98lb 5' tall Japanese man beats a 300lb 6'9" burly Norwegian man in a boxing match and no one bats an eye. "The small guy had superior skill, training, speed, etc...that's why he won" but then you turn around and have a woman of undetermined size and strength and she couldn't possibly be a fighter at all because..."realism!"

 

While I completely agree with your assessment on this, I will it's a damn shame this is how it is.

 

I like the idea of a tiny lethal assassin or a barbarian woman as a protagonist that defeats men three times her size through superior skills. 

 

By the way, was that a random story or did you draw your inspiration from a manga/movie?

 

I would say that sounds like Hajime No Ippo but hey, they at least adhere to weight standards.

[AlanC9]

....................................
 
you are joking right?

No.

[Steelcan]

No.

then you are simply being ridiculous and aren't worth any further effort on my part

[DomeWing333]

Cassandra is shorter than a male inquisitor last I checked

 

Are you seriously suggesting that Cassandra, someone who regularly spars with Iron Bull and wins, is physically weaker than a human mage Inquisitor?

[Steelcan]

Are you seriously suggesting that Cassandra, someone who regularly spars with Iron Bull and wins, is physically weaker than a human mage Inquisitor?

no I said shorter, to prove point that sexual dimorphism exists in Thedas

[Nefla]

Have to say I agree with everything you've said.

I love Inquisition but I cannot help but feel that Bioware, in an effort to both include everyone and not offend anyone, actually ended up neutering a lot of what made the last two games (yes, even DA2) so great.

 

This issue is not just limited to storytelling either, though that is certainly it's biggest flaw.

 

We get half a dozen a-gendered haircuts and a dozen buzz cuts shared between both genders. Why? Because it includes everyone and doesn't offend anyone, the downside is that the hair options are universally regarded as pretty sucky.

 

We get every single member of the Inquisition going to a Royal Orlesian Ball in matching red pantsuits. Why? Includes everyone, doesn't offend anyone. Downside is that it limits immersion and one's ability to role-play.

 

We get forced into those hideous dreaded pajamas anytime we're at Skyhold. Why? Because those dreaded pajamas are safely gender-neutral. Again, includes everyone and doesn't offend anyone.

 

Seeing a pattern here?

 

Again, I love Inquisition and I love how Bioware is making the games more inclusive and representative of more people. But in trying to not offend *anyone,* you might just end up disappointing *everyone.*

The hair, eyebrows, matching pantsuits and Skyhold pajamas offend me, they offend my eyes with their hideousness.

[Nefla]

While I completely agree with your assessment on this, I will it's a damn shame this is how it is.

 

I like the idea of a tiny lethal assassin or a barbarian woman as a protagonist that defeats men three times her size through superior skills. 

 

By the way, was that a random story or did you draw your inspiration from a manga/movie?

 

I would say that sounds like Hajime No Ippo but hey, they at least adhere to weight standards.

I was reminded of all the "David and Goliath" type movies I saw as a child where the little guy wins because he has "heart" but yeah it's also common in anime and video games.

[DomeWing333]

no I said shorter, to prove point that sexual dimorphism exists in Thedas

 

You were proving your point that "it makes little sense for the armies of Thedas to be open to men and women in the rank and file due to sexual dimorphism in terms of strength." Pointing out sexual dimorphism in terms of height does nothing to support your point unless you're assuming a correlation between height and strength. Which is what led to me asking if you believe that Cassandra is physically weaker than any male inquisitor because she is shorter than they are.