479 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

I'm glad to see this thread's turning to a more sensible topic.

[AppalachianApex]

Coincidentally I have a few dinosaur books on my desk and they claim that 250kg is an upper limit and that it is not understood how they took off . It's from 2005 and they also hypothesize that their wings were populated with blood sucking parasites, so I don't know how accurate this all is .

 

Either way they were rather short (max 1.5m) and the animals weighting 250kg were the ones with a wingspan of 11m. If you scale the body of the pterosaur to the size of a dragon, the wings will already be much larger. And in order for the animal to be able to fly you have to scale the wings once again with the same factor.

 

I have no idea were the conversation about Dragon wings came from in this topic, but I'm f*cking glad it did.

 

This has got to be one of my biggest video game pet peeves. I have yet to see a fantasy game wherein Dragons have wings even remotely close to being long enough to fly with. Inquisition being the most recent examples, well well as one of the worst offenders. 

 

I mean, seriously? Those wings wouldn't get Inquisition's Dragons off the freaking ground!! It doesn't help that Inquisition's Dragons are the bulkiest we've yet seen. I love their design, but those wings are just plain comical. I just don't get why video games seem to averse to large Dragon wings. They're practical, plus giant wings long BA. So why do we always get little mini wings?? XD

[Draining Dragon]

My question is: How do the Qunari determine whether a person is telling the truth when they identify as a certain gender? This is a culture that believes very strictly in gender roles. They wouldn't just take a person's word for it.

[Wulfram]

My question is: How do the Qunari determine whether a person is telling the truth when they identify as a certain gender? This is a culture that believes very strictly in gender roles. They wouldn't just take a person's word for it.

Their whole system is more or less based on brainwashing you into someone who wouldn't lie to the authorities. So they can take a Qunar's word for it.

These are people who just hand themselves in for "reeducation"

[RVallant]

Haven't read all the topic, but in response to the original topic I sort of agree.

 

The "pc" or general acceptance of nearly every bloody other modern day issue kinda makes it 'meh'. They're preaching to the choir really, but the little soapbox bits that they do just makes me go 'ok, and?' I don't really give a crap.

 

Give me a story that is in-depth and dramatic and emotional that tackles the issue and the prejudice and even if I might not agree with the solution or the 'ideal' completion method at least it allows *me* to explore the issue with them in the context of the world and divorced somewhat of the modern day principles.

 

Why tell me 'rape is wrong'? I know that. Give me a rape story where I can be the villain or the hero (akin to City Elf Origin ending) - That bribery option was a total scumbag option but it was there and the options and way the presented that little mini-story was more insightful and impactful than just having the latest mouthpiece NPC explain to me like I'm five why it's not quite a nice thing to carry off the brides for a gangbang session against their will.

 

Seriously, there's loads of historical and fantasy methods of development that issues such as Gay/Bi and Transgender could go, but not just that, other things as well. As a person who is disabled, I find the whole 'hey look, we're gay/bi/les whatever' slant very drab and boring, yet I have to put up with it and the drab presentation of it because it is the 'hot' topic. I'd love to see and be seriously provoked by having a mini story detailing what they do with their disfigured or malformed persons.

 

I'm profoundly deaf, would I have a role in the Dragon age world? Would people like me be fed to the labour camps, deprived of a basic education since we can't read or write? Or if Bioware takes up this agenda would they suddenly make the world of Thedas provide free education just to 'pc' the presentation of that type of disabled person, ensuring they can survive because they can now read and write?

 

Alas, I'm waffling and getting off point. I don't have an issue with the hot-topic politics of the day being introduced but the manner of the introduction and the very convenient 'oh it's all equal' sort of thinking just isn't that interesting and I suspect, Bioware simply missed the opportunity to do something magnificent and memorable with it.

[Dutchess]

 

You say you're female? Then you do not fight -- "fighting" being when someone serves as a warrior. Some folks looked on Tallis as a contradiction to this as well, rather than accepting that someone like Sten would not look upon what she does as fighting. Being able to pick up a weapon and use it, even to use it well, does not make one a warrior if that is not their purpose (which it would not be, for a Ben-Hassrath, but certainly would be for a Grey Warden whose stated purpose is to combat the darkspawn).

 

You say you're male? Then fighting is acceptable. Even if your biology might say otherwise

 

But why then does Sten have the same sort of conversation with every female companion, including Wynne? Wynne is not a warrior, and her magic is aimed at healing and support. Her purpose is that of a healer. And even that was not done in Sten's mind.

 

Sten: Why are you here?

Wynne: I beg your pardon?

Sten: Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war.

Wynne: I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with that idea.

Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.

Wynne: I do not understand. Do the Qunari have no female mages? No female warriors?

Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?

Wynne: Do you believe I wish to be a man?

Sten: You cannot wish to be a man. It will lead you only to frustration.

Wynne: Hmm. I believe this discussion does the same. Let us speak no more of it, Sten.

Sten: As you wish.

 

And how does the underlined not contradict with someone who is biologically female claiming to be male?

[In Exile]

But why then does Sten have the same sort of conversation with every female companion, including Wynne? Wynne is not a warrior, and her magic is aimed at healing and support. Her purpose is that of a healer. And even that was not done in Sten's mind.

Sten: Why are you here?
Wynne: I beg your pardon?
Sten: Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war.
Wynne: I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with that idea.
Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.
Wynne: I do not understand. Do the Qunari have no female mages? No female warriors?
Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?
Wynne: Do you believe I wish to be a man?
Sten: You cannot wish to be a man. It will lead you only to frustration.
Wynne: Hmm. I believe this discussion does the same. Let us speak no more of it, Sten.
Sten: As you wish.

And how does the underlined not contradict with someone who is biologically female claiming to be male?

Because there is a huge difference between "wish" and "are" in the Qun. It's all ridiculously hypocritical but that's the point. A merchant can't "wish" to be a warrior - man or woman. A merchant simply "is" a merchant. Really a merchant can't even wish to be a merchant.

You aren't allowed wants. You're given roles.

[Dai Grepher]

^Putting aside the fact that Sten said women cannot be warriors, your claim is refuted by Sten. He asks why women would wish to be men, indicating you can wish to do things, but certain things are not possible. This being one of them. If a qunari wishes to do something, he or she can request it, but it's up to the officials in charge to decide whether that is possible.

 

As for the main point of your post, if biological females can be born with male mentalities, you said yourself that you're given roles. Will any Tamassran really assign a biological female a warrior role?

 

As Sten would say...

 

"No."

 

That female is female, and if her brain tells her something different from physical reality then she is re-educated. Period.

[In Exile]

^Putting aside the fact that Sten said women cannot be warriors, your claim is refuted by Sten. He asks why women would wish to be men, indicating you can wish to do things, but certain things are not possible. This being one of them. If a qunari wishes to do something, he or she can request it, but it's up to the officials in charge to decide whether that is possible.

 

As for the main point of your post, if biological females can be born with male mentalities, you said yourself that you're given roles. Will any Tamassran really assign a biological female a warrior role?

 

As Sten would say...

 

"No."

 

That female is female, and if her brain tells her something different from physical reality then she is re-educated. Period.

 

You clearly can't parse the troll logic that Sten used, nor the hypocritical distinctions in the Qun. It's not about observable facts per se. It's this weirdly legalistic and ritualised formalism. The Qunari invent rationalizations around their culture and categories. This is where the distinction between "wish" and "are" comes in. It's not about what these terms mean - it's about what they mean within the Qun. 

 

Let's use the best example of Qunari troll logic - the Arishok saying he's lost "no Qunari" to the Tal-Vasoth. This is obviously  wrong on its face: he's lost people who were once loyal adherents to the Qun via attrition over the years. Yet because of his actually using the No True Scotsman fallacy, he can get away with saying he's lost no "Qunari" because, definitionally, a "Qunari" would never defect.  

 

It's the same with "wish" and "are" in terms of gender. A person who is deemed by the Qun to be one gender can't be another. But how exactly that deeming happens is unclear and is clearly not tied to biological gender. It's the same troll logic. This fiction is supported by the Qunari just saying that someone who is biologically female is and always was a male - but that's the same troll logic as how a defector to the Tal-Vasoth was "never" a Qunari. 

[Steelcan]

You have proven that height is different in Thedas. You haven't proven that combat ability is different. You can't prove that because it isn't true, which is why your Cassandra example blew up in your face a couple of pages back.

And I admitted Cassandra was a poor example, but substitute her for Josephine or Mother Giselle and it still stands

 

there is absolutely nothing incompatible with saying "sexual dimorphism exists in Thedas in the same way it does in the real world" and "Cassandra is a badass warrior woman"

[AlanC9]

Sure, Cassandra theoretically could just be a singular freak, a mutant, a beneficiary of some unknown magical influence, or some such. But we both know that she isn't. There are too many women in Thedas like her.

[AlanC9]

Let's use the best example of Qunari troll logic - the Arishok saying he's lost "no Qunari" to the Tal-Vasoth. This is obviously  wrong on its face: he's lost people who were once loyal adherents to the Qun via attrition over the years. Yet because of his actually using the No True Scotsman fallacy, he can get away with saying he's lost no "Qunari" because, definitionally, a "Qunari" would never defect.  

Isn't this an example of Western cultural hegemony? To a follower of the Qun, No True Scotsman is not a fallacy.

(/irony)

[tmp7704]

there is absolutely nothing incompatible with saying "sexual dimorphism exists in Thedas in the same way it does in the real world" and "Cassandra is a badass warrior woman"

But there's also nothing that we can observe in the game that could us actually conclude that the dimorphism exists in the same way it does in the real world. The whole problem you have with Thedas being illogical with their employment of women in the military etc... is self-induced by this presumption you make that things are the exact same way, and goes away as soon as you accept the possibility that this is not the case. This is something where Occam's razor applies quite nicely.

[Steelcan]

Sure, Cassandra theoretically could just be a singular freak, a mutant, a beneficiary of some unknown magical influence, or some such. But we both know that she isn't. There are too many women in Thedas like her.

nor did I say she was, anywhere, ever, at all

[Steelcan]

But there's also nothing that we can observe in the game that could us actually conclude that the dimorphism exists in the same way it does in the real world. The whole problem you have with Thedas being illogical with their employment of women in the military etc... is self-induced by this presumption you make that things are the exact same way, and goes away as soon as you accept the possibility that this is not the case. This is something where Occam's razor applies quite nicely.

You mean beyond actual evidence of it?  Such as men being taller?

[tmp7704]

You mean beyond actual evidence of it?  Such as men being taller?

I put stress on "in the same way" in there for the reason. You are presuming that because there's height difference between men and women, this somehow means there's other differences identical to what we can see in our own world, when there's no evidence to back up this particular presumption. And if you really want to keep bringing it up, then even this bit with men being universally taller isn't anything like our own world, where it's not uncommon to see individual women taller than individual men. So much for things being "in the same way".

[Steelcan]

I put stress on "in the same way" in there for the reason. You are presuming that because there's height difference between men and women, this somehow means there's other differences identical to what we can see in our own world, when there's no evidence to back up this particular presumption. And if you really want to keep bringing it up, then even this bit with men being universally taller isn't anything like our own world, where it's not uncommon to see individual women taller than individual men. So much for things being "in the same way".

Right, just because one very obvious example of dimorphism is present, no reason to assume its still there.....

 

 

And once again, averages and such, dutch and scandinavian women may be on average taller than other races, but on average men are taller than women

[tmp7704]

Right, just because one very obvious example of dimorphism is present, no reason to assume its still there.....

There's indeed little reason to assume the nature of dimorphism is identical when this one very obvious example is the only one example, and when the other aspects --including the very "men are stronger" that's the main point-- are apparently not present or at least not portrayed in any way.
 

And once again, averages and such, dutch and scandinavian women may be on average taller than other races, but on average men are taller than women

But the point remains we in our real world are not identical averages, whereas DA characters don't demonstrate this kind of individual differences. So there's actually very little to support the concept these worlds work the same, and far more evidence that they aren't. Beyond a presumption which remains just that, presumption, and which only makes Thedas appear illogical. So why do you cling to it?

[Steelcan]

There's indeed little reason to assume the nature of dimorphism is identical when this one very obvious example is the only one example, and when the other aspects --including the very "men are stronger" that's the main point-- are apparently not present or at least not portrayed in any way.
 
But the point remains we in our real world are not identical averages, whereas DA characters don't demonstrate this kind of individual differences. So there's actually very little to support the concept these worlds work the same, and far more evidence that they aren't. Beyond a presumption which remains just that, presumption, and which only makes Thedas appear illogical. So why do you cling to it?

There is a reason to assume its the same when examples of the same dimorphism exist and there is no further explanation on the subject

 

that is some mighty fine logic, truly a wonder

[TheOgre]

Aveline is the most badass warrior woman.

 

 

 

there is absolutely nothing incompatible with saying "sexual dimorphism exists in Thedas in the same way it does in the real world" and "Cassandra is a badass warrior woman"

 

[Dutchess]

Because there is a huge difference between "wish" and "are" in the Qun. It's all ridiculously hypocritical but that's the point. A merchant can't "wish" to be a warrior - man or woman. A merchant simply "is" a merchant. Really a merchant can't even wish to be a merchant.

You aren't allowed wants. You're given roles.

 

Seems to me there's still a wish expressed in switching gender. "I don't identify as the gender I was born as, so I wish to be/become the opposite gender." You can replace 'wish to be' with 'am' but it doesn't change anything. The merchant wishing to be a warrior could just as well say "I am a warrior" and pick up a sword, thumping his nose at the Qun. It still requires a switching of roles, based on personal identification and wants (not feeling right in the assigned role/gender).

 

Qunari kids don't play (Sten is unfamiliar with the concept) and instead get raised by priests (i.e. drilled into their Qun role) at a very young age. So roles will likely already have been assigned well before someone can express with certainty that they are not of the gender their body dictates.

[Jerome620]

I've started seeing it as this way as well. After years living outside of the Qun, his memories from his like as Hissrad and his life as The Iron Bull have begun to merge leading to the inconsistencies and how much more like the rest of Thedas the Qun seems. This mix of both lives comes to a head during his personal quest when he has to choose which version of him is him.

 
And whichever version the inquisitor chooses is the one he embraces.... ridiculous.

Spoiler

When I chose to let the chargers die, I was fully expecting Bull to get pissed and leave. Nope... he's like "Oh... ok no biggie. I'll just start acting like a Qunari again."

[Farangbaa]

And whichever version the inquisitor chooses is the one he embraces.... ridiculous.

Spoiler

When I chose to let the chargers die, I was fully expecting Bull to get pissed and leave. Nope... he's like "Oh... ok no biggie. I'll just start acting like a Qunari again."

Hehe, that's Bioware for you

Player Character: We need to break up
Victim: Oh.. ok... best friends forever?

They need to grow still in this aspect.

[Eonetic]

It seems like they want to make the Qunari appear more sympathetic propably for future titles which is incredibly stupid and inconstant with what had been established earlier.

Personally i think it makes them far less interesting aswell.

 

You can tell this in their design aswell.

In DA2 it seems like BioWare modeled the Qunari the way they imagined from the beginning.

They looked very alien and intimidating and in DAI that is all gone.

They have been drastically humanized in their appearance

 

-Their faces is the main offender.

 

-Their Claws are completely gone

-Their black sclera is also gone

 

Why?!?! BioWare stop ****** redesigning everything!Stick with what you had already established!

[TKavatar]

It seems like they want to make the Qunari appear more sympathetic propably for future titles which is incredibly stupid and inconstant with what had been established earlier.

Personally i think it makes them far less interesting aswell.

 

You can tell this in their design aswell.

In DA2 it seems like BioWare modeled the Qunari the way they imagined from the beginning.

They looked very alien and intimidating and in DAI that is all gone.

They have been drastically humanized in their appearance

 

-Their faces is the main offender.

 

snip

 

-Their Claws are completely gone

-Their black sclera is also gone

 

Why?!?! BioWare stop ****** redesigning everything!Stick with what you had already established!

 

Bioware wanted us to identify with the Qunari race (since we can play as them) so they humanized the Qunari. Personally I hate it, I liked them better when they were alien and foreboding.

 

At least they could have added an option for dark sclera in the CC.