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Keep different cultures different... Keep the Qunari as Qunari. You can't tackle issues without prejudice.


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#476
Lurklen

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Has anybody considered that maybe the Qunari we've met in the games were just not completely correct. Like Sten, he's just a soldier to start with, not even a very high ranking one. Knowledge of the working of the qun is not his training, entering new lands gathering information meeting people and killing them are. Saying what his knowledge base provides is fact as far as the qun is concerned is like saying a sergeant in the army of queen Elizabeth 1st actually knew and fully understood the laws of England and the new church. He would know the basics but the complex stuff would be glossed over. And Iron bull is basically a spy/assassin, the less he knows about the inner workings of the qun the better. Not only that but he's been reeducated at least once so his understanding of the qun is likely inconsistent with his personality. The Arishok is the person tasked with the military point of the pyramid that is the leadership of the qun. He doesn't need to be an expert in the qun, or at least he only needs to know the parts that relate to war and diplomacy(which is arguably just a different kind of war.) 

 

 Also this whole conversation is assuming that A.) This is an issue that comes up all the time. B.)That society at large is involved with this at all and C.) That this works like a democracy or a modern society where parts of the system that don't make sense can be countered with reason if enough people are aware of it and have a vested interest in doing something about it.  

 

 A) It probably doesn't. How much of the entire human race identifies itself as trans or another gender or whatever the complex and evolving nomenclature for current gender paradigms is currently called. I have no idea lol, but it's not a huge percent. A big number but a small percent, because we have a huge population. Now this is a single culture in a medieval like society so I think it's safe to say there are much less of them than earth based humans. So odds are there are less trans folk, so this probably doesn't come up every day. Meaning most people would have no reason to really know anything about it. Except the Tamerassans who likely would have figured out a "solution" to this so called problem long ago and thus are prepared should it arise. It is for this reason that it is entirely possible that Sten would never have even encountered this concept.

 

B.)There are no families in the qun. I don't think people get what that really means. No parents, no invested caregivers who want to pass down their family culture. They are all effectively raised by the state. So only state culture is passed down. Their only family is the kids they're sectioned with and the folk who's entire purpose is to study, teach, judge, and raise them. This means there is no real expectation to live up to nor for that matter expectation to put upon someone. No one is going to cry themselves to sleep because their parents don't understand their gender nor will any parents be upset because their expectations about a gendered child have been thwarted.  There are no groups of families talking to each other about how to raise children, there are no cultural shifts being adopted one town at a time. There is no community that will impart new methods of child rearing or new ideas, or change its mind about old ones. There is a system, and you are a part of it or you are not a person. The Tamerassans don't care like parents they aren't invested that way, they are trying to figure out what to make of every single kid. Their job is to find the best fit for each kid and shave the edges off until they fit into the right slot. For their whole childhood they are being weighed, measured and observed. I doubt very much it is the individual who alerts the Tamerassan that they are trans. Or that they are a female who wants to fight or a male who wants to raise children or farm. More likely the Tamerassan figure out that this kid is different and figure out how they want to deal with it.  Brainwashing every trans kid every time they started having issues with their role or gender was probably less effective then just creating a loophole and reassigning them a gender. Which brings me to my next point.

 

C) It doesn't matter if it makes sense. The qun raises you, the qun feeds you, it tells you what you do, it tells you what you are and what you are allowed to become. It even tells you if you are a person or a thing. If at any point you question it, it will wipe the questions from your mind until you are satisfied. If you manage to rebel you are no longer a person, if you were born a mage you never were. With a society as deeply enmeshed in their dogma as that do you really think that logical inconsistencies matter? They are either ignored (consciously or otherwise) misunderstood or accepted. How would you even go about questioning something so incredibly fundamental to your existence?  Even if you did would it matter? The state has all the answers and only permits the questions it finds worthy. Anything aberrant is to be removed. All things outside the state are both dangerous and not people, thus to be pitied and treated with caution. Like animals. The rules can change whenever the state wants them to. No one can argue or they are not people. It doesn't have to make sense, you just have to follow it. If the qun says that you are a man because you are a soldier, and you happen to have female parts, then you are a man. Because the only truth is what the qun says, it is the source of all of your definitions for what the world is. Why would you ever question it? Deviation from that mindset is likely terrifying. This society has individuals signing themselves up for reeducation so they don't have to be bothered by the parts of their philosophy that don't make sense. No wonder many Tal-vashoth cut off their horns, making that kind of break would alter everything about how you saw the world, and how you saw yourself.


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#477
ThreeF

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<snip because long>

Not disagreeing or agreeing with you, but couple things to notice:

 

1) Bull was never re-educated, he was found to be more useful that way.

2) Just because you are a ward of state it doesn't mean that you won't try and live up the expectations, might be the case for some (or many) in our world, but not under severely xenophobic, reclusive and absolute Qun. The Qun has hefty expectations of you, you either live under it meeting them, get re-educated or leave. Even if there were families they would follow the Qun, Qun does not leaves room for different views or cultures. Not having families just reinforces the loyalties to the singular family that is the Qun.



#478
Gaesesagai

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I know DA is getting very PC, but dragon age used to discuss the issues, they used to tackle them head on. DAI seems to have moved away from that, everything and everyone is cool. Bioware used to call out prejudice, let the player decide where he falls, elves were thrown in alienages (none of those in DAI) and a city elf warden took revenge on a noble who raped his friend, Dwarves cast out the surfacers, treat the castless as inhuman, Qunari felt they were the superior race and Sten couldn't understand that a female warden was both a woman and a warden. And humans destroyed the elves and made them slaves.

Here's Sten, on the subject of women fighters.



Sten wasn't trying to be jerk, he just didn't get it. His culture is radically different. His religion was different.

I enjoy the inclusiveness of DAI. I just hope bioware isn't shying away from prejudice, giving up on serious issues in favor of everyone magically getting along. 

Take Dorian, amazing character, great dialogue... but despite his talk about expectation to marry and all, the only character in the entire game who holds his lifestyle against him seems to be his father. Doesn't feel real... there's real challenge getting accepted for people in the gay community, things DAO and DA2 would comment on. And bull suggests the qunari who basically feel women are unfit to be warriors are totally accepting of all sexual preferences... the Qun, the hardest most formal religion in Thedas is suddenly liberal? In DA2 they were a terrifying warrior race who embraced spreading the Qun as the be all and end all of their existence. Through any means necessary (they also had awesome eyes and horns, now they're so... pretty.)

Inclusiveness is awesome, but a world without prejudice is a world without drama, and creating a magical world where everyone accepts and loves everyone else is a world that isn't real. Discuss prejudice, bioware, let there be conflict... don't whitewash it, and make racism and sexism magically a distant memory. Some of your best stories started with casteless dwarves and elves fighting injustice in the denerim alienage. I remember being treated like a messenger at Ostagar as an elf, while the blacksmith made fun of fetch quests to my human warden, saying he "had better things to do".

DAI didn't feel like it touched on those subjects at all. Sure everyone is included... but it's a missed opportunity for real storytelling.

 

 

Lifestyle... sexual preference... With a vocabulary like that, you tell more about yourself then anything else, but then again a lot of people are like you :) so not a novelty.

 

As for BW moving away from controversial content... Some are good moves, some are a bit perplexing.

 

They stated numerous times homophobia is not a part of Thedas like it is in the real world, but there's a constant stream of homophobes (openly so or the more veiled/subtle ones) who moan about not being able to attack (verbally or physically) the icky gays. They probably go back to masturbating to the moment where they could kill Zevran for example. Once that's done they come back to DAI to whine about not being able to "realistically" tell Dorian what a "disgusting homosexual lifestyle" he has. It's also worth mentioning that there aren't always "2 sides to every story". That's an idiotic point of view, for those who are either not intelligent enough or not educated enough (or both) to comprehend sh*t. So the fact that they don't play into homophobic nonsense just to satisfy the few crazies out there, it's a good thing.

 

One thing that I did indeed find perplexing is the "change" (at least I consider it a change, which doesn't necessarily mean it's true) to the Qunari. In my opinion they made the Qun a lot more mellow, with the sole purpose of making IB as likeable as possible. I don't agree with that change. I would have liked if the Qun was kept as monstrous as depicted in DAO and DA2. It would have made IB a more dynamic character and the choice in his personal mission a lot more emotionally significant for me as a player.

 

I also see a lot of nonsense about races in Thedas. I say nonsense because we've only seen a continent. So racial diversity isn't really an issue. Further more, in the game world public transportation isn't viable enough to justify real world levels of "racial mix" in general population (even though that isn't universally true in real world either). I like BW's approach on this one, with Isabela, Zevran, and others. Not to mention the in game "races", meaning human, elves, etc. Still, I would also like to see more "asian" characters in DA. I say "asian" because what some people understand by that word is limited by their ignorance lol. And Dorian would qualify, but not everyone acknowledges it.

 

Hmm, I just wanted to point out stupid words in op and here I go ranting again  ^_^


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#479
Saphiron123

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Has anybody considered that maybe the Qunari we've met in the games were just not completely correct. Like Sten, he's just a soldier to start with, not even a very high ranking one. Knowledge of the working of the qun is not his training, entering new lands gathering information meeting people and killing them are. Saying what his knowledge base provides is fact as far as the qun is concerned is like saying a sergeant in the army of queen Elizabeth 1st actually knew and fully understood the laws of England and the new church. He would know the basics but the complex stuff would be glossed over. And Iron bull is basically a spy/assassin, the less he knows about the inner workings of the qun the better. Not only that but he's been reeducated at least once so his understanding of the qun is likely inconsistent with his personality. The Arishok is the person tasked with the military point of the pyramid that is the leadership of the qun. He doesn't need to be an expert in the qun, or at least he only needs to know the parts that relate to war and diplomacy(which is arguably just a different kind of war.) 

 

 Also this whole conversation is assuming that A.) This is an issue that comes up all the time. B.)That society at large is involved with this at all and C.) That this works like a democracy or a modern society where parts of the system that don't make sense can be countered with reason if enough people are aware of it and have a vested interest in doing something about it.  

 

 A) It probably doesn't. How much of the entire human race identifies itself as trans or another gender or whatever the complex and evolving nomenclature for current gender paradigms is currently called. I have no idea lol, but it's not a huge percent. A big number but a small percent, because we have a huge population. Now this is a single culture in a medieval like society so I think it's safe to say there are much less of them than earth based humans. So odds are there are less trans folk, so this probably doesn't come up every day. Meaning most people would have no reason to really know anything about it. Except the Tamerassans who likely would have figured out a "solution" to this so called problem long ago and thus are prepared should it arise. It is for this reason that it is entirely possible that Sten would never have even encountered this concept.

 

B.)There are no families in the qun. I don't think people get what that really means. No parents, no invested caregivers who want to pass down their family culture. They are all effectively raised by the state. So only state culture is passed down. Their only family is the kids they're sectioned with and the folk who's entire purpose is to study, teach, judge, and raise them. This means there is no real expectation to live up to nor for that matter expectation to put upon someone. No one is going to cry themselves to sleep because their parents don't understand their gender nor will any parents be upset because their expectations about a gendered child have been thwarted.  There are no groups of families talking to each other about how to raise children, there are no cultural shifts being adopted one town at a time. There is no community that will impart new methods of child rearing or new ideas, or change its mind about old ones. There is a system, and you are a part of it or you are not a person. The Tamerassans don't care like parents they aren't invested that way, they are trying to figure out what to make of every single kid. Their job is to find the best fit for each kid and shave the edges off until they fit into the right slot. For their whole childhood they are being weighed, measured and observed. I doubt very much it is the individual who alerts the Tamerassan that they are trans. Or that they are a female who wants to fight or a male who wants to raise children or farm. More likely the Tamerassan figure out that this kid is different and figure out how they want to deal with it.  Brainwashing every trans kid every time they started having issues with their role or gender was probably less effective then just creating a loophole and reassigning them a gender. Which brings me to my next point.

 

C) It doesn't matter if it makes sense. The qun raises you, the qun feeds you, it tells you what you do, it tells you what you are and what you are allowed to become. It even tells you if you are a person or a thing. If at any point you question it, it will wipe the questions from your mind until you are satisfied. If you manage to rebel you are no longer a person, if you were born a mage you never were. With a society as deeply enmeshed in their dogma as that do you really think that logical inconsistencies matter? They are either ignored (consciously or otherwise) misunderstood or accepted. How would you even go about questioning something so incredibly fundamental to your existence?  Even if you did would it matter? The state has all the answers and only permits the questions it finds worthy. Anything aberrant is to be removed. All things outside the state are both dangerous and not people, thus to be pitied and treated with caution. Like animals. The rules can change whenever the state wants them to. No one can argue or they are not people. It doesn't have to make sense, you just have to follow it. If the qun says that you are a man because you are a soldier, and you happen to have female parts, then you are a man. Because the only truth is what the qun says, it is the source of all of your definitions for what the world is. Why would you ever question it? Deviation from that mindset is likely terrifying. This society has individuals signing themselves up for reeducation so they don't have to be bothered by the parts of their philosophy that don't make sense. No wonder many Tal-vashoth cut off their horns, making that kind of break would alter everything about how you saw the world, and how you saw yourself.

You live your entire life in fanatical devotion to the Qun, it's safe to say you know it pretty well. 

I don't want kind and lovable Qunari. I want a horde of grey towering monsters who believe their way is the only way.



#480
Rekkampum

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As a Two-Spirit, it's awesome to see the responses. The Qunari have been my favs, but I've seen so many people all of a sudden shocked that the Qun is more intricate than they imagined. I completely understood Sten's confusion as a Beresaad, liked Tallis, and Gatt's my fav now. Keep up the awesome work with them.