479 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

All this just makes me wonder what the Qunari do with tomboys - girls who exhibit a desire or talent for fighting but don't identify as "male."  I wonder if everybody in that aqun athlok category *is* actually transgendered?

 

My understanding of it is that tomboys (i.e. girls who exhibit a desire or talent for fighting) are considered 'male' by the Qun.  The Tamassrans don't care if she doesn't identify that way.  She is considered a male now since she performs a male role.  "Aqun-Athlok" refers to people who are now the 'other gender' according to the Qun, not people who self-identify as the other gender (although they may very well be considered Aqun-Athlok as well). 

 

It's why Sten is confused by the female Warden.  She identifies as a she, but she is performing the role of a male.  To Sten's mind, she can't do both.  If she identifies as a she, she needs to perform female roles.  If she performs male roles, she's not a 'she' anymore.  It's why, in my mind, Krem isn't a contradiction.  If he were qunari, he'd be 'male' and an Aqun-Athlok because he is a warrior who was born a woman.  He'd be an example of the latter option that Sten sees for the Warden.

 

Another way to look at it.  A transwoman who wants to be a warrior would have no issues within the Qun (mandated reproduction excluded) because she is performing the role assigned to her biological sex.  If a transwoman wanted to be a baker, she would be considered an Aqun-Athlok if the Tamassrans decided that she had an aptitude for it and was now assigned "baker" as her role.

 

At least that's how I see it.  Does that make any sense?  My eyes are kind of crossing at this point as I read it back.

[Steelcan]

Too expensive. Also, there may always be solutions once you set "let your children go their own way" as sacrosanct, but when has that ever been true, in Tevinter or elsewhere? In the real world and for much of human history, such things have been a primary obligation for the next generation, and in some parts of the world they still are.

Well it wouldn't be any less expensive then losing your entire business/political structure

 

In ancient Rome in particular it was very important that lineages survive, not only for practical and economic purposes, but for prestige purposes as well

[Dai Grepher]

I think a better loophole would be for "aqun-athlok" to mean "poser". That way, a female is not considered a male in order to be a warrior, but she is no longer considered female, thus this allows her to fight as a warrior.

 

So basically, warriors can be males, and those who pose as males by performing their roles.

 

This requires "aqun-athlok" not mean that a gender is redefined as the other, but rather the person is posing as it.

 

Still... kind of defeats the whole purpose of having genders roles under the Qun, but I think that's as good as it's going to get. Unless we just write off everything The Iron Bull said on the subject as lies.

[Ieldra]

Still... kind of defeats the whole purpose of having genders roles under the Qun, but I think that's as good as it's going to get. Unless we just write off everything The Iron Bull said on the subject as lies.

Well....his qunlat name does mean "liar" Hell of a job description, actually.

[In Exile]

I concede the point, but maintain that it looks like Bioware is interested in making the Qun look good and interested in keeping Tevinter reduced to its role as the Evil Empire. I do not like that.

Besides, if there's one thing I never want to experience again in a DA game, it's being made complicit in a plot that benefits the Qun, and being forced to endure those tortured justifications without being able to act against them.

I do agree with you that Bioware hasn't done a good job of trying to portray Tevinter as something other than mustache twirling villainy. Dorian tried to portray that good of Tevinter but much of it was just a contrast between his upstanding moral character and the moral deficiency of his society.

We do get to frustrate the Qun somewhat in DAI in allowing its dreadnought to sick. Perhaps DA4 will feature this in greater detail.

[THDarkwolf]

It seems to me that the "contradictions" people are seeing in the Qun arise from a misconception of culture. The key to resolving this lies in understanding some of the basic definitions which people use to evaluate the culture. First and foremost, man and woman. Sten is not specifically talking about sex or genitalia here, and his confusion is understandable if one interprets that "woman" to Sten refers to a set of tasks and behaviors which define the concept of "woman". When conversing with Morrigan and told " You see women throughout this land, fighters and mages both." He replies "That has yet to be proven." The simplest interpretation is that Sten is deluded, clinging to misogynist beliefs, but it is not necessarily logical because it presumes that Sten and Morrigan have the same definition of "woman". The more realistic approach would be to assume that Sten is referring to gender identity which cannot be determined by simply looking at a person's genitals, but by observing their actions and behavior. It is also nonsensical to believe that the Qunari would use this as a requisite for any role, given that the focus is efficiency rather than semantics. This would also account for why the qunari from the first two games differ so much from those we see in Inquisition and Mark of the Assassin.

 

Up until MotA, we had only been shown the Antaam. This role, it can be safely assumed, carries with it its own set of acceptable behaviors and a typical personality, which would be partly dissimilar from the personality of a Ben-Hassrath, whose role is more clandestine and malleable. Furthermore, we have yet to see a typical representative of the Ben-Hassrath. Bull is not reliable given that the branching character arcs expected of Bioware games necessitates a volatile character, without having to actually delve into the character's specific story, no Bioware character is typical of their race. The other three examples within the games involve a Tal-Vashoth and two Videthari, also not necessarily typical of Qunari.

 

That none of the characters are typical and that Qunari concepts of "role" and "gender" are different from those found in the rest of Thedas is also indicated by the multiple times that Qunari characters have said something to the effect of "People are not simple. They cannot be summarized for simple reference." Attempting to put such an exotic culture into our own cultural terms within a game or comic would be more pedantic than natural, and so, as Gaider said, we can either give the Qunari the benefit of the doubt and try to understand the actual logic at play, or we can label them, incorrectly, based on a very narrow representation. Anyone is free to do the latter, but it is neither wise nor correct to insist that such a conception is the reality.

[In Exile]

^^What? Qunari hold a baker to his bread, but not a female to her physical biology? Not a contradiction? Again, what?

They hold a baker to his bread until he becomes so awesome at baking that he becomes head baker - then he's held to organising and managing baking as if that was always his role.

There's no contradiction. Sten is always a Sten, meant to be a Sten, nothing but a Sten ... until he's promoted to Arishok. Categories are fluid in the Qun. They just pretend the categories aren't fluid.

[Cypher0020]

This why I loved playing Bioshock Infinite SO MUCH

 

it deliciously pulled NO punches

[Ieldra]

This why I loved playing Bioshock Infinite SO MUCH

 

it deliciously pulled NO punches

Would you mind explaining that statement?

[luism]

Debating this topic will only end in frustration.

[TheOgre]

Would you mind explaining that statement?

I too was confused by this.. As bioshock isn't an rpg so much as dragon age is.

Biased myself because I prefer Rapture to Columbia

[X Equestris]

Would you mind explaining that statement?

If I had to guess, he is referring to how the society of Columbia is depicted in Bioshock Infinite, and how that relates to the thread title. It doesn't shy away from showing how racist the place is, the quality of conditions that the blacks and Irish in the city live in. It doesn't shy away from how Comstock has built up a personality cult around himself, and how fanatical some of his followers are.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It seems to me that the "contradictions" people are seeing in the Qun arise from a misconception of culture. The key to resolving this lies in understanding some of the basic definitions which people use to evaluate the culture. First and foremost, man and woman. Sten is not specifically talking about sex or genitalia here, and his confusion is understandable if one interprets that "woman" to Sten refers to a set of tasks and behaviors which define the concept of "woman". When conversing with Morrigan and told " You see women throughout this land, fighters and mages both." He replies "That has yet to be proven." The simplest interpretation is that Sten is deluded, clinging to misogynist beliefs, but it is not necessarily logical because it presumes that Sten and Morrigan have the same definition of "woman". The more realistic approach would be to assume that Sten is referring to gender identity which cannot be determined by simply looking at a person's genitals, but by observing their actions and behavior. It is also nonsensical to believe that the Qunari would use this as a requisite for any role, given that the focus is efficiency rather than semantics. This would also account for why the qunari from the first two games differ so much from those we see in Inquisition and Mark of the Assassin.

Except when Sten brings it up he specifically says "You look like a woman." So someone's physical biology does come into play with this. 

[Neon Rising Winter]

Except when Sten brings it up he specifically says "You look like a woman." So someone's physical biology does come into play with this. 

Assuming that's a quote rather than a paraphrase that can only be used to suggest he is judging based on appearance. It doesn't tell you if his surprise is due to you being a woman or due to you not choosing to appear masculine.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Assuming that's a quote rather than a paraphrase that can only be used to suggest he is judging based on appearance. It doesn't tell you if his surprise is due to you being a woman or due to you not choosing to appear masculine.

It is a quote. It is part of how he begins the discussion with you about it. He says, "I don't understand. You look like a woman." 

[Texhnolyze101]

Lol, SR is hardly a good example, it used to be a pretty serious game involving gang warfare, drugs & murder with the occasional silliness but now its been completely toned down & turned into a comedy series in order to attract the so called "casual gamers"

 

No SR became something different so it wouldn't be a poor mans GTA anymore and I approve the new direction.

[Rizilliant]

Its not hard to see that every single aspect f Dragon age, has been toned/watered down../ PC has taken presidence.. Front and center.. Theres no "darkness" to it.. Theres no "Edge".. Here i thought DA2 took a hard right, in terms of change, and that was mostly visual, and some streamlining(pretty word for dumbing down).. But this.. This, is a hard right, downward spiral, followed by a barrel roll backwards.. Its basically Dragon Age, in name only...

 

We dont need big, in depth conversations, and debates to disect what has happened here.. Its clear as day, and you all see it.. Acknowledging, and admitting it however, is the only problem here...

 

Remember saving the Qunari mage in DA2? He would have rather burned alive, then be free... It was not the "Qun"...Thats pretty hardcore.. Likewise, Iron Bull, in his stout belief would have done similar.. Life was not mroe important than the Qun, and being outcast as Tal Vashoth, would have ended his existance.. Hence, the water down effect.. Happy, love, joy, ponyland!

 

Not only that, but i hard pressed to believe that the Qunari would have just let the Inquisition be on their merry way, having allowed an entire dreadnought, and crew sink, over 4 individuals...Chargers at that.. Mercs!

[In Exile]

It is a quote. It is part of how he begins the discussion with you about it. He says, "I don't understand. You look like a woman."

Krem, of course, doesn't. He doesn't adhere to any of those gender conventions re: apperance.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Krem, of course, doesn't. He doesn't adhere to any of those gender conventions re: apperance.

Krem does look like a woman. He is biologically a female and has the body of one, even refusing to change his body to a male one if asked if he would. 

So if this was a thing in the old Qun, why would Sten question it and not think "Oh, this Warden is a Aqun-Athlok." and leave it at that?

[Nefla]

Be careful how you picture the process of becoming aqun-athlok. If you picture someone announcing it, and suddenly the Tamassrans fall all over themselves to abide by that person's wishes, that's not really in keeping with what we've established about Qunari society...and neither is it something Iron Bull implies when he explains the existence of the term. From what you've said, I think the hitch is probably your perception of it as a choice.

 

Insofar as the Grey Warden in DAO went, Sten wouldn't have made that assumption because the female Warden neither presented herself as male nor claimed to be one. Granted, he doesn't know everything about human society, but by the time he brings the subject up he's known the Warden long enough to realize she's female...which makes no sense to him.

 

Of course, it's also fair to say that aqun-athlok was not even a concept to us at that time, which is absolutely true. Even so, when the writers discussed the concept as a group, we realized it did not contradict anything we'd already established. It made sense to us, after all, that a society which established so much emphasis on gender might also have a more nuanced understanding of it, and that this didn't contradict all the other ways in which their society is extremely rigid.

Thank you for the reply

 

I did get the impression from Iron Bull that they just announce it or something, probably the way he worded it "someone born as one gender but living like another" (also does that mean men can be forced to be women if they are good with children or have great managerial skills or other traits the Qun considers womanly?) it definitely made me think of it as a "choice" rather than a necessity.  Also none of the characters had explained why women were forcibly re-branded as men if they could fight rather than the Qun just making an exception or perhaps having a special women's detachment or something. Come to think of it, how do they know if a woman can fight? I don't imagine they test for that like they would for boys considering they assume "women can't fight." The concept seems like it comes from an extreme hatred of women "we're in such denial that a woman is capable of fighting that we'll force her to pretend to be a man" but we know that's not the case as they have women doing tasks of governance and priesthood and things like that rather than just being brood mares and slaves to the men. We know Krem is good at fighting, but what if fighting isn't his best skill? What if his best skill is something "womanly?" Would the Qun force him to be a woman, or let him be a man and a soldier anyway? It's confusing for me.

 

Iron Bull says a lot of things that are not what I expected from a Qunari, he's so laid back and talks about the Qun as if it's super laid back as well. Sex is not a big deal (but they are not allowed to have sex for love or have families?), they allow transgendered people, life is not that different for a Qunari than anyone else. I kind of got the impression that he was in denial a bit? Or maybe exaggerating the Qun's virtues so that the non Qunari he deals with would think better of it? I mean he even tells you "your role wouldn't change much under the Qun" and I'm like "I'm a mage, wouldn't they sew my mouth and eyes shut and weld a 40lb collar onto me and lead me around like an invalid?" Is this guy having me on or what?

 

I do hope we have the opportunity to get to know Qunari culture better in the future rather than relying on what Sten, the Arishok, and Iron Bull tell us as well as throwaway lines here and there (that we tend to latch on to like rabid dogs with a scrap of meat... ) to represent an entire culture.

 

Anyways, thank you for taking the time to talk to us!

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

No SR became something different so it wouldn't be a poor mans GTA anymore and I approve the new direction.

Is still a poor mans GTA tho, only with increasingly unfunny jokes & ridiculous storylines like becoming president & getting invaded by aliens. I actually like the SR series too, is fun if increasingly dumb

[darth_hel]

Thank you for the reply

 

I did get the impression from Iron Bull that they just announce it or something, probably the way he worded it "someone born as one gender but living like another" (also does that mean men can be forced to be women if they are good with children or have great managerial skills or other traits the Qun considers womanly?) it definitely made me think of it as a "choice" rather than a necessity.  Also none of the characters had explained why women were forcibly re-branded as men if they could fight rather than the Qun just making an exception or perhaps having a special women's detachment or something. Come to think of it, how do they know if a woman can fight? I don't imagine they test for that like they would for boys considering they assume "women can't fight." The concept seems like it comes from an extreme hatred of women "we're in such denial that a woman is capable of fighting that we'll force her to pretend to be a man" but we know that's not the case as they have women doing tasks of governance and priesthood and things like that rather than just being brood mares and slaves to the men. 

 

The way I'd imagine it, although it may or may not be the way it turns out, is that Aqun-Athlok is not something directly from the Qun itself. The Qunari are very rigid in their belief in the Qun and following it. However, they are also very utilitarian, they would not wish to waste a person who was a good warrior just because the person is physically a woman. 

 

So, what do you do if the Qun says that women cannot be warriors but you have some women that are damned good at fighting? Well, you can't just re-define Warrior since that job is probably very specifically laid out in the Qun, a Warrior's duties and expected behaviors. However, I doubt that "Man" or "Male" would be so clearly defined in the text. They might lay out what a man should or shouldn't do, and what is expected of them, but they probably wouldn't say "A man is one that has a penis".

 

So, the book wouldn't leave room for you to make a "special woman's detachment" because the Qun says that women cannot be warriors. So loopholes like that would be specifically banned. However, if the Qun only defines what a Man can do an can't do but doesn't define what a man is, well there is your loophole. This would have the side effect of the Qun being better for transgendered people, but it wouldn't be because the Qun cares about your feelings, its because its better for society to have you working to your strength, but the Qun specifically bans your physical gender from doing that job.

 

It comes up a lot like this in U.S. court cases. there's what the law prohibits, and what it demands, and then there's a whole bunch of penumbras and loopholes around it. So, the answer that comes out will follow what the law said, but not necessarily interpreted how you'd expect.